Dismissed without notice but the employer wont say why

youcangetjules

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Hi, slightly left of field topic, it's nowhere near as dramatic as it sounds - I am a contractor, I had my contract terminated, amicably (these things happen, I was their most expensive resource and they said they needed to cut costs, so what are you going to do) and was working through the notice period. The flip side to this is that my immediate manager and I (not line manager, more team leader) and I did not see eye to eye, she's 10 years younger, the business loves her, she aces the performance reviews but I wasnt sure she really knew what she was doing, she was however awesome at schmoozing senior management which is a skill all of its own. I never raised my voice once with any other member of the company during my entire tenure, but madam and I would regularly scream down Teams at each other, and the customers, when I spoke to them lived in mortal fear of her. She was very my way with no highway option. People fell in line.
So anyway, I am working through my notice period, she accuses me of not doing any handover to the new guy (I was on the phone to him for hours every day, I was managing around 7 projects, and he was turning paler and paler, which, given he is Southern Indian is quite a feat, poor lad only has 2 years of PM experience) so I had done all the handover I could. With 2 weeks left Madam and her boss (all are Indian, although this is not important to the story, Madams boss and I work extremely closely, he's awesome and we get along well, under somewhat trying circumstances), anyway, they tell me I am not to speak to anyone, external or internal. I obviously query this. External - ok sure, new guy needs to take the reins, but internally - not so much. I have all manner of in flight activities I am closing down, finishing off, or handing over. After querying it I was told in no uncertain terms - no comms. If we have questions we will ask you. No questions came my way either. Time to buy some little umbrellas to stick in my Pina Coladas.
Then, with a few days to go, Madam calls me up in a rage saying I'm lying about the handover, I have done nothing on one of the project to handover, which is actually kindof true, the project had only started a week before I was released, I had all the PM'y stuff there - comms with supply chain, BOMs, all that stuff, there simply wasn't anything else there. She is now incandescent with fury, saying she's going to bad mouth me to the customers (both of whom offered me work the moment they found out I was going) and report me to HR.
Later that day I was told I was terminated with immediate effect. Then they went to radio silence except for one senior director telling me I should apologise to Madam. I would wee a meal of Beaujolais and asparagus on her grave before I ever considered an apology.
Now - the company in question needs to give me a reason for my termination. Its in law. (Gov.uk/dismissal - its the first point mentioned) - they won't, because what happened was Madam went to senior management who high handedly said Off with his Head - I've got friends up there too who told me on the quiet.
What do I do in this situation - I'm not after compensation, hell, 2 weeks into my notice period I had already started another consultancy role, but I need them to explain themselves. How do I do this?
 
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Newchodge

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    Now - the company in question needs to give me a reason for my termination. Its in law. (Gov.uk/dismissal - its the first point mentioned)
    1. You were not an employee. Does not apply.
    2. If you bother to read the link, even if you were an employee you would need 2 years' service:

    You have the right to ask for a written statement from your employer giving the reasons why you’ve been dismissed if you’re an employee and have completed 2 years’ service
     
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    youcangetjules

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    Anyone else? I was actually hoping to have some genuine advice on this. I am well aware of the 2 year rule for employees, and I was not after a statement, but there is no qualification put around the first statement on the website "if you're dismissed, your employer must show they've a valid reason that they can justify".
    If this is the first statement given, when qualifications coming after that suggesting something different - like I say I'm not after a statement, but I don't think it unreasonable to ask the reason, and what is on the website is clear that they must show a reason, even if that reason is that they just don't like the look of you.
    Yeah I know, its getting all too hard.
     
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    Newchodge

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    Anyone else? I was actually hoping to have some genuine advice on this. I am well aware of the 2 year rule for employees, and I was not after a statement, but there is no qualification put around the first statement on the website "if you're dismissed, your employer must show they've a valid reason that they can justify".
    If this is the first statement given, when qualifications coming after that suggesting something different - like I say I'm not after a statement, but I don't think it unreasonable to ask the reason, and what is on the website is clear that they must show a reason, even if that reason is that they just don't like the look of you.
    Yeah I know, its getting all too hard.
    You did not have an employer. It does not apply. As I already said.
     
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    MBE2017

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    Anyone else? I was actually hoping to have some genuine advice on this. I am well aware of the 2 year rule for employees, and I was not after a statement, but there is no qualification put around the first statement on the website "if you're dismissed, your employer must show they've a valid reason that they can justify".
    If this is the first statement given, when qualifications coming after that suggesting something different - like I say I'm not after a statement, but I don't think it unreasonable to ask the reason, and what is on the website is clear that they must show a reason, even if that reason is that they just don't like the look of you.
    Yeah I know, its getting all too hard.
    As mentioned earlier, by yourself, you were not an employee. You were told you had been terminated with immediate effect, and you admitted the accusation of not completing the task given to you was true.

    I think you can take from that they want to contract to people who do what they say, not what they want. If you have new work just move on with life, you have nothing to gain from whining about it. Deep down, I think an intelligent person would already have known the reason.
     
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    I am a contractor, I had my contract terminated, amicably (these things happen, I was their most expensive resource and they said they needed to cut costs, so what are you going to do)
    like I say I'm not after a statement, but I don't think it unreasonable to ask the reason,
    You answered your own question. They gave you a reason.

    I've got friends up there too who told me on the quiet.
    Your friends are going to tell you what you want to hear.
     
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    Newchodge

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    For anyone else reading this thread, wanting a reason for dismissal:

    Please bear in mind that the advice on gov.uk is just that - advice. It does not represent the law and is often eithr wrong or incomplete. The OP on this thread was relying on the statement on https://www.gov.uk/dismissal which states in the overview:

    If you’re dismissed, your employer must show they’ve:
    • a valid reason that they can justify
    • acted reasonably in the circumstances
    They must also:
    • be consistent - for example, not dismiss you for doing something that they let other employees do
    • have investigated the situation fully before dismissing you - for example, if a complaint was made about you

    All of the above is true, however it does not mention that an employer who fails to do this can only be 'dealt with' if the employee can take them to an employment tribunal. Unless the reason for the dismissal was a protected characteristic under the Equalities Act (discrimination) an employee MUST have 2 years' continuous employment to take such a case. So the above, while a correct statement of what is required, does not mean you can always do anything about it if the employer does not follow the guidance.
     
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    JEREMY HAWKE

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    As an expert witness for government Cyndy, I work with my senior legal to push buttons and extract all kinds of snippets of info that we may have overlooked. In all 35 or so cases I've been on the winning side every time.
    You've done well.
    Now can we kill it.
    Your so good at you came to us for help
    Personally I think your a racist
    A nightmare
     
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    Newchodge

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    I may have missed it, but I'm not sure where race comes into this. The joke about the Southern Indian lad turning pale was perhaps in poor taste, but the OP was expressing sympathy with him (it's not just you white folk who can turn pale, you know). Calling the OP a racist seems a little uncalled for.
    Why mention race at all? It has absolutely nothing to do with the topic.
     
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    youcangetjules

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    Yeah, trying.
    Judging by the comments, without much success.
    TBH I worked many hours with the guy to help get him up to speed, and have told him he's welcome to call me any time after I am gone if he deems it appropriate, to get any piece of knowledge I have that may help him.
    It felt to me that they were cutting off their nose to spite their face just a bit - suddenly terminating me during a very difficult transition. Their call...
     
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    JEREMY HAWKE

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    I may have missed it, but I'm not sure where race comes into this. The joke about the Southern Indian lad turning pale was perhaps in poor taste, but the OP was expressing sympathy with him (it's not just you white folk who can turn pale, you know). Calling the OP a racist seems a little uncalled for.
    It recognises that the individual see others as different.
     
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    JEREMY HAWKE

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    Lucan.... shhhh. Don't tempt him.
    Why don't you just read the comments and learn a bit about how to conduct yourself
    Or in your language
    Shut up and listen
     
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    JEREMY HAWKE

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    Don't we do this in daily life?

    Asian waiting staff in Indian Restaurants etc.,
    You may do but it is unacceptable in the work place
    You might need to go on one of those unconscious courses with the OP
     
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    japancool

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    Honestly, I sometimes think people spend all their time thinking how we poor, beknighted ethnic minorities must feel, bless our sensitive little hearts.

    There's nothing wrong with mentioning ethnicity. We aren't going jump all over you and scream "racist" if you do. Sometimes, it really is relevant when you're dealing with different cultures.

    Absolutely but it can't be used to define them

    Actually, sometimes, yes it can. You see the advice on this forum all the time - don't trust a Chinese supplier until you've built a strong personal relationship with them. That's just how business works with Chinese companies, and in fact, many Asian companies. When dealing with Japanese companies, be prepared to never get a definitive answer. The Japanese do not like being direct, that's just part of the culture.

    To expect that, or assume that someone of an ethnic minority background will do things the way you do - that is discrimination.

    Please, please stop walking on eggshells all the time.

    OK, rant and derail over.
     
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    youcangetjules

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    You may do but it is unacceptable in the work place
    You might need to go on one of those unconscious courses with the OP
    I'm sorry but do you know me? Maybe put a mirror on yourself and ask what this narrow definition of racism is that you need to beat in to other people.
    I'm not from the UK, and I have lived overseas and away from my home culture for more than 20 years. I grew up predominantly with the indigenous people of my country, I remain in contact with them to this day. They laugh at our wokeism. You know what they want - for us to speak normally to them, treat them normally, but actually speak to them. This woke nonsense does more to drive division than it does to drive tolerance and acceptance. It divides us and them, and that's nothing compared to how much its dividing us and us.
    Do you think for a second that the new PM who I spent many hours training, including putting him in touch with all the guys who went out of their way to help me, and me going cap in hand to these guys and asking them all to look after this guy, as he's in for one hell of a ride, is going to bat an eyelid at some bland joke I make about him telling me that he's got to add all my stuff to his already substantial workload. It's more gallows humor than anything.
    It's the pencil pushers of this world who think "a rule has been broken, and now there must be punishment" reminds me of Matthew 7:3 "And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?"
    For the most part these people are my friends, I worked extremely closely with them. I'd ask you to think before you pass judgement.
     
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    JEREMY HAWKE

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    I'm sorry but do you know me? Maybe put a mirror on yourself and ask what this narrow definition of racism is that you need to beat in to other people.
    I'm not from the UK, and I have lived overseas and away from my home culture for more than 20 years. I grew up predominantly with the indigenous people of my country, I remain in contact with them to this day. They laugh at our wokeism. You know what they want - for us to speak normally to them, treat them normally, but actually speak to them. This woke nonsense does more to drive division than it does to drive tolerance and acceptance. It divides us and them, and that's nothing compared to how much its dividing us and us.
    Do you think for a second that the new PM who I spent many hours training, including putting him in touch with all the guys who went out of their way to help me, and me going cap in hand to these guys and asking them all to look after this guy, as he's in for one hell of a ride, is going to bat an eyelid at some bland joke I make about him telling me that he's got to add all my stuff to his already substantial workload. It's more gallows humor than anything.
    It's the pencil pushers of this world who think "a rule has been broken, and now there must be punishment" reminds me of Matthew 7:3 "And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?"
    For the most part these people are my friends, I worked extremely closely with them. I'd ask you to think before you pass judgement.
    You trained the PM now that is bollocks
     
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    JEREMY HAWKE

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    PM = Project Manager.
    Sorry Boss

    You know that I'm used to people over selling themselves and what what with all that Tock tik and Instaface!
     
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    IanSuth

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    I'm sorry but do you know me? Maybe put a mirror on yourself and ask what this narrow definition of racism is that you need to beat in to other people.
    I'm not from the UK, and I have lived overseas and away from my home culture for more than 20 years. I grew up predominantly with the indigenous people of my country, I remain in contact with them to this day. They laugh at our wokeism. You know what they want - for us to speak normally to them, treat them normally, but actually speak to them. This woke nonsense does more to drive division than it does to drive tolerance and acceptance. It divides us and them, and that's nothing compared to how much its dividing us and us.
    Do you think for a second that the new PM who I spent many hours training, including putting him in touch with all the guys who went out of their way to help me, and me going cap in hand to these guys and asking them all to look after this guy, as he's in for one hell of a ride, is going to bat an eyelid at some bland joke I make about him telling me that he's got to add all my stuff to his already substantial workload. It's more gallows humor than anything.
    It's the pencil pushers of this world who think "a rule has been broken, and now there must be punishment" reminds me of Matthew 7:3 "And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?"
    For the most part these people are my friends, I worked extremely closely with them. I'd ask you to think before you pass judgement.
    Just an aside

    Were you working direct or through an agency ?

    What does you contract say about dismissal ?

    I suspect given the original reason for terminating with notice that you are actually a victim of "Oh no - we need to keep paying him for another 4 weeks and have no £, can we engineer a faster exit ?"

    Read your contract carefully - is there a clause allowing an earlier termination and if so under what specific circumstances. If not then they still owe you the notice period - invoice them.

    If you are through an agency it may get trickier as they may have a pay when paid clause which will mean you can invoice but just not get paid as they have little incentive to rile a possible future client

    First things first though - you are not an employee so you were not dismissed

    The legal facts are

    YoucangetJules Ltd has had a contract for services with Client limited cancelled

    initially with a period of notice but then with immediate effect -

    what are the cancellation clauses?

    what are the compensations for the early termination specified ?

    Have they complied with the contract clauses and have you ?

    What compensation is meant to flow from one to the other in those circumstances

    If you are due extra £ by those clauses, send an invoice explaining why

    If they don't pay Small claims with a clear timeline and documentation
     
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