Designer Problems... where do I stand?

[Pet Bites]

Hello UKBF, I'm a long-term lurker who now has a topic worthy of posting... hopefully.

I needed a web-site front-end designed, and so I looked at a number of designers and settled on one guy who had a very decent portfolio.

He completed the site design in a timely manner and at a price I was happy at, and also the quality of his work was excellent and exceeded my expectations.

The problem came when I wanted a logo design, I told him what I wanted and after a few back and forths he produced one draft, I wasn't happy with it so I asked for another, this was closer to the money but it still wasn't right. At this point I scanned a couple of pages out of a logo book, designed a sample logo and sent all this over to him.

The logo he produced fell way below my expectations, and usually I'd tell him straight that it wasn't good enough, but he got a bit iffy when I asked him for this third draft saying that if more drafts were required he'd have to change a consultation rate. Now, I understand his need to charge more to make it worth his while, but to be honest I'd expect more than 3 drafts.

Do I ask him for another draft or do I cut my losses? If anybody wants to see the logos and know the price I paid then PM me (I don't want to identify the guy because it's unprofessional, and I'm only asking for advice)

Am I being unreasonable, or am I correct in my understanding of this process?

Any help will be welcome!

 

[PaddyPawsPetServices]

to my mind, as you are the customer and he is the provider, surely he should be happy to do as many drafts as you like ( so long as its within reason )

If he isnt producing what you want, (is there a misunderstanding in what you are requesting, or is he "just not getting it"?) then I personally would find someone else

Hello from another "Pet Industry person!"

 

[Smallb]

Have you paid any money for the logo design work?

 

[am:pm graphics]

Did he say how many design concepts he would produce before you agreed the price etc?

Feel free to email us the design and I'll have a look. [email protected]

Pauline

 

[cardiaccomputers]

I agree with PaddyPawsPetServices, three drafts in not unreasonable and you even when to the effort of designing a sample for him.

 

[KreativeJuice]

Hi,

I think you will find that experienced designers become specialists in a few areas of what they do, not everything. Web design is a totally different kettle of fish to logo design and what your seeing is somebody that is perfectly adequate in designing websites just probably hasn't got the experience or skill to do great logos.

If you haven't paid for the logo I suggest you tell your guy to forget it and have a look elsewhere. If you have paid for the logo then get your money back and start again.

In terms of revisions we and a number of other design agencies offer unlimited revisions to concepts because we know that we can usually get the best out of a clients logo within a few drafts.

If you feel like exploring other avenues then feel free to give me a call.

Kind regards
Karen

 

[Eagle]

Always, always, always hire a specialist. If it all goes horribly wrong (and it sounds like it is) drop me an email via my site and I'll see what I can do for you.

 

[Pet Bites]

Thanks for the replies.

I have paid a deposit, and no there was no discussion over how many concepts there would be. I presumed (and you know what presumption is the mother of...) that since the site went so well I had no need to worry about it.

I'm keen to keep the relationship good, as I'd be happy to use his web design services in the future. I think I'll ask him for a further draft and supply him with more information (not that I can think of what else to give him!) and see how things go.

I wouldn't say it was going horribly wrong, not yet at least so I shall continue with the knowledge that I'm being reasonable.

 

[TotallySport]

before asking him to do more work ask him for a formal contract so you both know what your getting for the amount paid.

 

[FireFleur]

A lot of web designers are not artists.

And whilst we are on the subject, a lot of web developers are not web designers and vice versa.

For logo work you need a graphic artist. Normally for logo they will allow 3 iterations or 3 styles in the price.

I think you got the wrong man there, and I suspect he probably knows that as well, but was doing it as a favour.

Why not pay him for the work done, claim the artwork and look around for someone else. Most of them have different styles as well, and know little bits of the lore when it comes to logo design, so you need to find someone who matches what you want in a logo.

This is why logo design is kinda expensive, and it is also why people can come in cheap, they are the new ones generally, looking to build portfolio.

A logo has to work across the brand, and be adaptable across the brand, it is not something to take too lightly. You need it to create instant recognition in some instances, so correct use of colour, font, association is very important.

But with all that said, if you just need something then a filler can be done, and I suspect that is what he has done, and it looks like your expectation was beyond that to the brand positioning as outlined above.

 

[Poppy Design]

I agree with Totally Sport above.

It is the only fair way to both of you to have a contract stating what you can expect for what you are paying.

 

[Dot Design]

Seems strange he was unhappy to produce another draft, logo design is rarely ever finished within a few drafts there is always more discussion with the client and tweeks/development etc, the designer should really have told you what you would be getting for your money rather than keeping you in the dark until half way through the project.

Also the designer shouldn't have been happy until you were 100% happy!

Like some others have said I'm happy to help should you need any advice etc, let me know.

 

[mobyme]

Most Web designers have someone with excellent graphic design skills even if they don't do it themselves.
Usually these situations arise through something get lost in translation; he isn't understanding exactly what you want or your not explaining yourself very well. I would be extremely doubtful if any one of the Zillions of so called "Logo Designers" would be able to produce anything better and you may risk damaging what has been up to now a happy relationship.
I can understand your designers frustration because three drafts would normally be more than ample.
May I make a suggestion? Go to http://99designs.com/ and start a contest; put up a $50-$100 prize , you will receive entries from any number of the 27,340 talented designers registered there.
You are under no obligation to choose any of them but you might just get something very special.
It is going to cost you very little and your designer is unlikely to feel undermined if you are throwing it open to all comers.

 

[TotallySport]

Also the designer shouldn't have been happy until you were 100% happy!

I agree with that as a customer but at some point the designer will have to say enough is enough, the amount of money put in, has to be equal to the time spent on the project, and to be honest none of know the terms and the price nor the abilities or expectations.

If an agreement is in the contract to say I will work until your 100% happy then fair enough, but otherwise the money agreed may have been used on the time spend in which case you need to evaluate and more on, either with or without them.

 

[Calibre Designs]

Normally for logo they will allow 3 iterations or 3 styles in the price.

Most designers base their business around this concept but that doesn't help the customer especially if they are made to feel uneasy about asking for revisions.

All the design work that we have done for forum members here have been based around UNLIMITED design revisions. The client know exactly what they will be getting at no extra cost or nasty surprises. If they don't like the logo concepts then it is back to the drawing board. No harm done.

I agree about drawing a line somewhere but if you are that good of a logo designer with good branding experience, you will never have to go close to that line!

 

[mobyme]

Most designers base their business around this concept but that doesn't help the customer especially if they are made to feel uneasy about asking for revisions.

All the design work that we have done for forum members here have been based around UNLIMITED design revisions. The client know exactly what they will be getting at no extra cost or nasty surprises. If they don't like the logo concepts then it is back to the drawing board. No harm done.

I agree about drawing a line somewhere but if you are that good of a logo designer with good branding experience, you will never have to go close to that line!

Sorry but I don't agree. If it takes more than a couple of revisions; somebody is not listening or else somebody is not explaining themselves very well. We probably buy in or produce ourselves close to a hundred logos a year. I can honestly say if I had to explain to somebody more than twice what I was after, their feet wouldn't touch.

 

[Deleted member 27344]

I've said it a thousand times, GET A CONTRACT.
Outline everything required then there is no ambiguity.

 

[Pet Bites]

I've given this a bit of thought and have contacted the designer, so I'm just waiting for his response. I will never do this without a contract again.

Out of interest, from a designer's point-of-view what information is required from a client in order to produce an effective design? And which is the most overlooked?

 

[Calibre Designs]

Sorry but I don't agree. If it takes more than a couple of revisions; somebody is not listening or else somebody is not explaining themselves very well. We probably buy in or produce ourselves close to a hundred logos a year. I can honestly say if I had to explain to somebody more than twice what I was after, their feet wouldn't touch

Huh? Thats what I am saying...for designers to put a limit on the amount of designs received (and honestly speaking most do) and fail to deliver could be down to :

1. Designer not understanding the project/client's needs.
2. The client has not communicated the brief very well/designer has not been able to draw that out
3. The designer is not committed.


Based on the principle that we can deliver every time without fail has prompted us to offer our clients UNLIMITED design revisions/concepts. Why should the client suffer for the above points?

Excuse me if I am not making myself clear. It's been a long day!

 

[Eagle]

Out of interest, from a designer's point-of-view what information is required from a client in order to produce an effective design? And which is the most overlooked?

If you drop me an email, I'll give you some guidance on that.

Email via sig.

Mark

 

[Pet Bites]

If you drop me an email, I'll give you some guidance on that.

Email via sig.

Mark

Thanks, emailed.