Cyclists

[simon field]

I get the feeling you're being argumentative for the sake of it John.

I have explained from the point of view of a decent cyclist why things are like they are. When on my daily commute (only 6 miles) I see allsorts. But I would't be so blinkered as to say 'all motorists are idiots'.

I simply tell myself that it isn't their fault they haven't been educated in how to behave politely, and that something happens to them when they get behind the wheel which turns them into stressy, selfish aggressive little toads who have misjudged their journey time to the point where every second counts.

Which is sad really, especially given that I do everything I can to ensure that they, and I, remain safe.

 

[Deleted member 59730]

Near me a lot of money was spent a couple of years ago upgrading, widening and re-surfacing a cycle lane on a wide roadside verge. The council could have saved the money because the cyclists prefer to ride on the road.

 

[estwig]

Cars kill far more people than bicycles. Not doing too well are you

Could that be because..........................................There are a lot more of them???

 

[HFE Signs]

If I were a cyclist I wouldn't ride two a breast, my wife has bashed her wing mirrors on all sorts of things, look out fella's for a black Toyota Avensis and get in line!

 

[Alan]

OK the stats speak for themselves

Car drivers are simply too safe. This needs to be evened out.

Lets remove air-bags - crumple zones - safety belts and head restraints.

Install a large stainless steel spike in the centre of the steering wheel.

This should make car insurance much cheaper, as no one would take any risks and also quickly 'weed out' bad drivers.

What do you think?

 

[simon field]

Could that be because..........................................There are a lot more of them???

Yes. Too many. Have you seen the state of the roads, both condition-wise and traffic-wise?

Most cars I see have one person in them. How selfish can you get?

 

[simon field]

If I were a cyclist I wouldn't ride two a breast, my wife has bashed her wing mirrors on all sorts of things, look out fella's for a black Toyota Avensis and get in line!

Then your wife is not fit to drive.

 

[simon field]

OK the stats speak for themselves

Car drivers are simply too safe. This needs to be evened out.

Lets remove air-bags - crumple zones - safety belts and head restraints.

Install a large stainless steel spike in the centre of the steering wheel.

This should make car insurance much cheaper, as no one would take any risks and also quickly 'weed out' bad drivers.

What do you think?

I think that car drivers often feel 'invincible', shrouded in their faux-cocoons of safety - which leads to really stupid, aggressive behaviour.

The kind of behaviour where, if they did it in a shopping mall/pub/supermarket they'd soon earn themselves a smack in the teeth .

What do you think?

 

[simon field]

Ok, seriously now. What is wrong with you lot?

Not that I can't take it - but I have told you that I am legal, I have told you that I am courteous. I have told you that I use lots of lights and high-visibility clothing.

I have told you that I follow the Highway Code.

I have told you that I am insured. I have told you I pay 'Road Tax' as you wrongly put it. I have told you that I am mindful of the safety of others as well as myself.

What is it? Do you not believe me?

Is it OK for me to say 'black people, they're just criminals' because my Nan was once robbed by a black person?

What is it? Is it, as Earl suggested - envy? Envy that I can comfortably cycle 100 miles in less than a day? Envy that I'm not sat in my beemer looking at a telephone whilst gulping down a McShite and smoking a joint-butt?

Tell me, what have I done that upsets you so much, O forum warriors!

 

[Voicebooth]

I think you're the forum warrior here Simon

I'm a cyclist myself, I race at amateur level in closed circuits, open road races and mountain bike races. I commute 33 miles each day from the suburbs into Central London. I own a car, I drive long distances to lots of places on a regular basis. I experience the road from behind the wheel, and behind the handle bars.

As a whole, I would say most car drivers are considerate, and most cyclists are considerate. There are culprits on both sides that make you lose faith in humanity - I've seen stunts pulled by both types, including having cars pulling a left hook on me and sending me to hospital, but regardless of whether it's someone on a bike or someone in a car, the problem isn't whether they're a driver or a cyclist, it's whether or not they're assholes.

A lot of cyclists (or lets define them as people on bicycles), particularly in Central London, seem to think that because they're on a bike, they're above the laws of the road which isn't right. There aren't sufficient penalties or methods of enforcing these penalties to keep these people in check. Jumping red lights, cycling on pavements and so on are all common.

Then there's the car drivers who believe the road is owned and paid by them, regardless of whether the law recognises bicycles as legal vehicles or not. These people tend to quite often not just be hostile to cyclists, they quite often tend to be hostile to other drivers and are pretty aggressive on the roads regardless.

Cyclist vs Drivers is a pointless argument, there are no comparable facts, it's all opinions, no one can "win" it.


Alvaro

 

[simon field]

Good sense.

Me, a warrior? Nah, too laid back for that!

I saw the OP's confusion regarding cycling two abreast and simply did what any good forum member would do - tried to help them understand.

Since then, various points have been raised and. I have addressed them.
That's all

 

[sirearl]

To many cars on to few roads equals frustration something motor cyclists and bikers don't suffer so much.

So someine suggested we have one of the harder driving tests in europe.LOL..

So someone who passes their test in a fiat 500 never having travelled above 30 mph is then fit to drive a 200 mph Lambo or even worse a lumbering great Range Rover.

I don't think so.

 

[MikeJ]

So someine suggested we have one of the harder driving tests in europe.LOL..

So someone who passes their test in a fiat 500 never having travelled above 30 mph is then fit to drive a 200 mph Lambo or even worse a lumbering great Range Rover.

Do you actually read what you write?

 

[sirearl]

Do you actually read what you write?

Na never I just use my observations on the 60 years experience I have of doing battle with the British at play on our road system.

 

[Andrew Chambers]

Well my observations of cyclist are, multiple times a day I'll see them jump lights, ride down a one way street the wrong way and ride on the pavement. These are all very common daily occurrences. Now I'm not say car drivers don't jump lights, or make a mistake and go the wrong way down a one way street on occasion, but I can't remember the last time I did see this. And given the vast number of cars to cycles then ergo a massively higher percentage of cyclist break the law, and as a group are worse road users than car drivers.

Another issue with cyclist are those knobs with a wan*ercam on their helmet recording cars and reporting them to the police. Fair enough maybe? Well it would be if the motorist had the same liberty. Trouble is, unlike motorist, cyclist are totally anonymous and therefore unaccountable for their terrible road abuse. It's about time cycles carried a licence plate so they can be brought to justice for their law breaking.

And I'll add another voice calling for cyclist to have mandatory insurance and road tax.

 

[simon field]

Road Tax?

Another ignoramus pipes up!

Road fund License is paid according to the level of crap that pours out of your car as you sit there in a queue of other cars, inching your way forward due to your laziness.

It does not pay for the roads.

It's called Co2 emissions.

Bicycles do not discharge any such poison. We are legally entitled to use the road whilst you are simply temporarily licensed to do so.

 

[john1989]

Another ignoramus pipes up!

And you had the audacity to call me argumentative!

 

[Andrew Chambers]

Road Tax?

Another ignoramus pipes up!

Road fund License is paid according to the level of crap that pours out of your car as you sit there in a queue of other cars, inching your way forward due to your laziness.

It does not pay for the roads.

It's called Co2 emissions.

Bicycles do not discharge any such poison. We are legally entitled to use the road whilst you are simply temporarily licensed to do so.

Its called "road tax" for a reason, it's not a Co2 tax, Co2 is just how the amount of road tax you pay is now calculated. Taxing road use in this way is a recent initiative to encourage the use of "green" cars. Do you really think that in the future, when all cars produce nil Co2 the road fund licence will be scrapped?

And why should cyclists get to use the roads, and their own expensive dedicated cycle lanes/paths, for free?

 

[andygambles]

Bl**dy cyclists, wheres their road tax and insurance??

Shouldn't even be on the roads!!!

There is no such thing as road tax in the UK.

 

[andygambles]

Its called "road tax" for a reason, it's not a Co2 tax, Co2 is just how the amount of road tax you pay is now calculated. Taxing road use in this way is a recent initiative to encourage the use of "green" cars. Do you really think that in the future, when all cars produce nil Co2 the road fund licence will be scrapped?

And why should cyclists get to use the roads, and their own expensive dedicated cycle lanes/paths, for free?

It is called Vehicle Excise Duty.

 

[andygambles]

For those talking about riding two abreast. It is deemed safer because it means the car overtaking spends less time on the wrong side of the road.

 

[Andrew Chambers]

It is called Vehicle Excise Duty.

Whatever it's called it's a tax that you pay to use your car on the road, which is why it's commonly know as "road tax". Nothing more, nothing less. If you don't use the vehicle on a public highway you don't pay the tax. So why do cycles get road use for free?

 

[andygambles]

Whatever it's called it's a tax that you pay to use your car on the road, which is why it's commonly know as "road tax". Nothing more, nothing less. If you don't use the vehicle on a public highway you don't pay the tax. So why do cycles get road use for free?

I don't get to use the road for free.

I pay

• Council Tax
• VAT
• Income Tax
• Corporation Tax
• Stamp Duty Land Tax
• National Insurance
• Insurance Premium Tax
• Fuel Duty
• Vehicle Excise Duty

 

[estwig]

There is no such thing as road tax in the UK.

Lots of pedants though!

 

[Andrew Chambers]

I don't get to use the road for free.

I pay

• Council Tax
• VAT
• Income Tax
• Corporation Tax
• Stamp Duty Land Tax
• National Insurance
• Insurance Premium Tax
• Fuel Duty
• Vehicle Excise Duty

We'll you don't pay corporation tax, so scrub that one (I can be pedantic as well !). And I also pay all those taxes, and more, as well but still have to tax my car. So, back to the question, why should a bike be allowed on the road for free, when cars, motorcycles etc have to pay a tax before they are allowed to.

 

[andygambles]

We'll you don't pay corporation tax, so scrub that one (I can be pedantic as well !). And I also pay all those taxes, and more, as well but still have to tax my car. So, back to the question, why should a bike be allowed on the road for free, when cars, motorcycles etc have to pay a tax before they are allowed to.

You can drive any of these cars on a public road without paying tax.

http://www.whatcar.com/car-reviews/...ount=10&orderBy=None&orderDirection=Ascending

 

[Cobby]

My annoyance with cyclists is the lack of insurance. If one of these self-important, razor thin tyre death traps, look at me I'm so healthy in my day-glow lycra, menaces. Knocks over and hurts one of my children, is their insurance going to pay up?

Weeeeeeellllll, *sucks teeth* depends which garage you take your kid to for repair...

 

[Andrew Chambers]

You can drive any of these cars on a public road without paying tax.

http://www.whatcar.com/car-reviews/...ount=10&orderBy=None&orderDirection=Ascending

No you can't. They are only tax free for the first year when purchased new. After that you pay your road tax.

I'm not suggesting cyclist should pay a huge amount. Something like £15 a year which could be affiliated with a cycling proficiency test, then at least everyone on a bike would understand the Highway code and the roads would be safer for all.

 

[andygambles]

No you can't. They are only tax free for the first year when purchased new. After that you pay your road tax.

I'm not suggesting cyclist should pay a huge amount. Something like £15 a year which could be affiliated with a cycling proficiency test, then at least everyone on a bike would understand the Highway code and the roads would be safer for everyone.

Cars in Band A pay zero duty every year. Cars in Band B-C (I think) pay zero in first year. All under current rules.

My point is VED (or Road Tax if you want to call it that) does not get ring fenced and spent on the roads. It is just another form of revenue for the exchequer.

The majority of cyclists also tend to be car owners as well (so they do pay "road tax").

In the same way there are bad drivers there are bad cyclists.

In the same way there are good drivers there are good cyclists (that have insurance, stop at red lights and are courteous to other road users).

 

[sirearl]

Cars that emit less than 100 co2 are VED free for life.

 

[Cobby]

Could that be because..........................................There are a lot more of them???

It's hard to gather numbers when you aren't willing to go past the top of the first page of google, but... I think there's around 35 million licensed motor vehicles (plus half a million unlicensed which are likely to be driven in a much more dangerous fashion). 'Cyclists' is a harder number to categorise, but let's just label everyone that cycles at some point - this is estimated to be about 5 million.

Deaths caused by motorists in 2013: ~1,700
Deaths caused by cyclists in total 2001-2009: 18 (so 2.5 per year?)

So 1 in every 20,000 motorists is a killer.
And 1 in every 2,000,000 cyclists is a killer

So it's not just because there are more of them, they are more dangerous! I think the 'cyclist' section of the '1,700' victims is around 100, and culpability for accidents tends to be 50/50, so still no great difference to the figure if you want to bother assigning blame to the cyclists.

 

[Andrew Chambers]

...or some 40 year old gas guzzling, uneconomical wreck!!

 

[Cobby]

Lots of pedants though!

You are implying it's a point of semantics, and it's not.

Pedestrians do not need insurance. It is up to the operators of the vehicle or cycle to insure (compulsory or voluntarily) and it is the responsibility of the operator to ensure they don't hit anything.
If a child 'bumbles' into a cyclist, it would indicate that the cyclist was going too fast to avoid collision and / or they were riding in an unsuitable place.

Cars passing each other on a single carriageway road are arguably going too fast to avoid a collision. You can't legislate for stupidity.

 

[john1989]

How the statistics are being applied to this thread is nonsense.

The fact is that many cyclists will choose to drive or take public transport in riskier conditions such as travelling at peak time or when there's bad weather.

 

[Cobby]

Well my observations of cyclist are, multiple times a day I'll see them jump lights, ride down a one way street the wrong way and ride on the pavement. These are all very common daily occurrences. Now I'm not say car drivers don't jump lights, or make a mistake and go the wrong way down a one way street on occasion, but I can't remember the last time I did see this. And given the vast number of cars to cycles then ergo a massively higher percentage of cyclist break the law, and as a group are worse road users than car drivers.

Another issue with cyclist are those knobs with a wan*ercam on their helmet recording cars and reporting them to the police. Fair enough maybe? Well it would be if the motorist had the same liberty. Trouble is, unlike motorist, cyclist are totally anonymous and therefore unaccountable for their terrible road abuse. It's about time cycles carried a licence plate so they can be brought to justice for their law breaking.

And I'll add another voice calling for cyclist to have mandatory insurance and road tax.

I'm not going to disagree with most of these points, but this whole post is coming from a very particular mindset. Define what you mean by "worse road users".

 

[Andrew Chambers]

I'm not going to disagree with most of these points, but this whole post is coming from a very particular mindset. Define what you mean by "worse road users".

Worse, in as much as more frequently disregarding the Highway code.

 

[Cobby]

Worse, in as much as more frequently disregarding the Highway code.

That's something of a tautology. "They more frequently disregard the highway code because they don't adhere to the highway code as much".

What are you trying to get at when you say they're "worse" or is it just that? That they are more of a menace to society? That their behaviours are more costly to society in terms of safety or finance? Or just that you don't like seeing a cyclist ride across a zebra crossing?

 

[john1989]

I think to settle it, car drivers and cyclists should each be given long sticks.
If the car driver is being a menace, the cyclist can hit the car with the stick.
If the cyclist is being a menace, the car driver can hit the cyclist with a stick - I would aim for the spokes on the wheel for an ultimate 'hit'.

We could then gather statistics based on hits. I think hits would be a better measure of who the real menace is.

 

[estwig]

To interject at this point, I do believe we have a winner for the highly coveted

'UKBF Word Of The Day Award'

Drum roll please.........................................

I give you Cobby with sublime use of the word "tautology"

and the crowd goes wild

That's something of a tautology. "They more frequently disregard the highway code because they don't adhere to the highway code as much".

 

[Cobby]

To interject at this point, I do believe we have a winner for the highly coveted

'UKBF Word Of The Day Award'

Drum roll please.........................................

I give you Cobby with sublime use of the word "tautology"

and the crowd goes wild

Uh, okay. Don't forget to click 'Thanks' on the post then. :]

I think to settle it, car drivers and cyclists should each be given long sticks.
If the car driver is being a menace, the cyclist can hit the car with the stick.
If the cyclist is being a menace, the car driver can hit the cyclist with a stick - I would aim for the spokes on the wheel for an ultimate 'hit'.

We could then gather statistics based on hits. I think hits would be a better measure of who the real menace is.

It's interesting that even in a discussion, car drivers mirror their real-world, blinkered, entitled, judge-jury-executioner behaviour toward cyclists:

'The cyclist can hit the car.'
'The driver can hit the cyclist.'

Just consider that for a moment. It's no wonder so many motorists cause accidents, injuries and fatalities.