Customers saying they haven't received the goods when they have!!!

[FloraRadford]

Hello

This is my first time on the forum as I have had to vent my anger to someone!!

I have an online store and after customers advising that they weren't receiving the goods I decided 12 months ago to send everything by 1st class recorded delivery so I know when the goods have arrived.

The problem is that I have recently had a number of people saying that they haven't received the goods even though Royal Mail have provided the date in which the goods were delivered and provided me with the electronic proof of signature!!! These two particular individuals have said that its not their signature and therefore under the Distance Selling Regulations I have to refund them.

I have taken legal advice and I can't believe that this is actually the true! Even though I have the receipt of the goods being despatched with the customers address on the receipt and the barcode and the confirmation and proof of delivery from Royal Mail that the goods were delivered to the right address, the customer can still demand a refund because the signature isn't their signature even though its been delivered to the correct address! Therefore if you send something by recorded delivery and the customer signs it they can STILL say that its not their signature and get a full refund!

This is complete madness. The law needs to change! There needs to be some sort of common sense associated with the Distant Selling Regulations because at the moment it is completely biased towards the customer and people are taking advantage of the regulations.

Has anybody else experienced the same? Arghhhhhhh!!

 

[Kett]

I am afraid so.

My son had a good little business on ebay, but only a couple of people doing this ruined him.

Paypal would not accept a recorded delivery as proof and refunded the clients.

But then it seemed that word got around that this was the case and more people kept saying they had not received the goods. Either all postmen are on the take (which I don't believe) or they had indeed received them. It seemed to happen quite suddenly.

He got out.
I am ashamed to be part of a country where there is this level of dishonesty and cannot really advise you.

 

[Alex@AMB]

This happened to me with a couple of iPods, which really screwed my profits over.

Complete refund from Paypal as the customers said it wasn't them that took delivery.

Great.

 

[evocart]

I used to have an online store selling mens clothing and I had a customer that said they never got one Item so started a paypal dispute, I agreed to resend the Item which they recieved but didn't cancel the dispute and paypal found in thier faviour (or the credit card company did) and they had the £240 full amount refunded, that wiped out all my profit and I sold the shop.

The new owner also had a few chargebacks and the store closed permantly a couple of months later, there are some people that will do you over and will tell others to do the same, the law definatly needs changing.

But the chences are it will keep happening and smaller online retailers will simply be forced out of business because of it.

 

[KidsBeeHappy]

And it's likely to get worse as ebay have changed the rules so that simply posting is no longer sufficient. It is your responsibility to ensure that customers "receive" the goods.

I think systems like royal mail and the economy parcel services create more of a window of opportunity, as there is a possible "confusion" about when the item is due for delivery. If you use a next day delivery, both you and the customer know that delivery will (normally 98%) be next day. But if you use royal mail, or a 2-5 day economy service, neither you nor the customer have any certainty over what day the delivery should be expected to be made. No-one waits in for 3 days for a parcel, so the chances of delivering to a neighbour/wheelie bin etc all increase.

But, overall, it is a big issue, and the responsibility is unfairly laid on the retailer. And to be honest, mail strikes, Christmas and a recession do not make for a combination that's likely to see this situation do anything other than become a bigger problem.

The law won't be changed because otherwise customers would be responsible for ensuring that the retailer sends their goods and that's just bonkers. The only way that it will change is if the mail & parcel carriers take great responsibility for non-delivery. Some of them already do, others, maybe, are going to be the companies that loose their customers.

All in all, i'd say its something that retailers need to plan for.

 

[evocart]

It's a shame you can't get insurance to safe gaurd against such things, however I just don't think it would be viable for insurance firms to offer this.

 

[KidsBeeHappy]

It could be part of your business insurance policy easy enough. The thing is though that probably most amounts will be too small to claim for.

 

[Robert Wheeler]

I think it is going to come down to having a service where the delivery man takes a photo of the customer receiving the item, and it being available to the retailer and customer.

Delivery companies do need to sort out their staff though. Time and time again they leave deliveries, including high value goods, out on the door-step, or even with neighbours when you have explicitly asked them not to (even though I would leave mine with my neighbours).

Recently, I have heard of a case where Amazon claimed to have delivered a Dyson and left it in a garage which was locked. The customer never received the item and a second unit had to be dispatched. Also I know about a John Lewis laptop that was just left on the door-step, but on this occasion it was still there when the customer arrived, even though it was clearly marked as a laptop on the packaging. Both these items should have been signed for.

I used to run a delivery department. I know that delivery drivers can be a nightmare. The delivery firms really need to sort their drivers out as they provide opportunity for the weak link.

 

[KidsBeeHappy]

But legislating or devising systems to protect (everyone?) against less than honest customers is a potentially overwhelming nightmare.

Maybe what's needed is a retailer to acutally persue and prosecute on of these less than honest customers, so that it's something that people actually think twice about chancing.

As for the photo on delivery - its interesting that you raise that because it's something that we're introducing this week (PODs with photos). Mainly because couriers are vunerable to less than honest sellers that send items described as perfect when they're not, and then blame the courier for damage in transit. The photos let the courier take a photo on collection showing the damage thus protecting themselves.

 

[Alicatt]

In my experience Recorded Delivery is a complete waste of money.

I'm sure that in a good proportion of cases the postie signs for it. Just because RM have a signature doesn't mean the customer received it.

Special Delivery is more reliable, but at a cost.

I think it's better to self-insure. In our ecommerce business we just add a little to our postage charges to cover "insurance" and build this sort of event into our business plan. It does help that we are in a low risk category so fraud is rare and in most of these cases the customer is genuine.

 

[KidsBeeHappy]

Recorded delivery isn't a guaranteed mail delivery service. But they rarely tell you that. The "signed for" element is what you are paying for, ie a signature to tell you IF it was delivered.

To get a guaranteed delivery service with the royal mail you need to fork out that fiver and go special delivery.

 

[Robert Wheeler]

By "self-insure", do you mean that you add say £1 to a sale of a £10 value product in order to cover 1 out of 10 deliveries going wrong?

 

[KidsBeeHappy]

I think it's better to self-insure. In our ecommerce business we just add a little to our postage charges to cover "insurance" and build this sort of event into our business plan. It does help that we are in a low risk category so fraud is rare and in most of these cases the customer is genuine.

This is what we used to do. If you take the view that sending "signed for" costs less than a £1, and that if you sent same thing as special, or with a parcel carrier, it would cost you £5 ish.

You then have to look at it from the perspective that you are effectively saving £4 per delivery. Then you look at the non delivery/ damages/claims/dishonest customers percentage. It's probably less than 5%. Bring in your average order value, say £50.

So, for 95% of your orders you save £4. (£380)
for 5% of your orders it goes wrong and costs you £62 (£50 product cost and lost profit, £2 on 2xpostage, £10 in time in sorting it all out). (£248).

So, you're still cheaper with the royal mail "signed for" and "losing" 5% of deliveries.

And when the numbers go the other way, swap over to the more secure delivery services.

 

[JMCDesigner]

I had a complete opposite experience. Asked for a refund, sent the product back. Got my refund back (and an apology), and the product was returned to me (it was recorded delivery, wasnt picked up from the royal mail office). Haven't heard from the seller since, very bizarre!

 

[Alicatt]

By "self-insure", do you mean that you add say £1 to a sale of a £10 value product in order to cover 1 out of 10 deliveries going wrong?

Pretty much although our loss rate is nowhere near that.

We look at it something like:

Total orders per month = 500
No of orders getting "lost" = 2
Cost to us of replacing each lost order = £30

Amount to add onto every order = 60/500 = 12p

We do send the more valuable orders by courier but for the smaller stuff this works out much cheaper than recorded delivery and you don't annoy honest customers by questioning their integrity. We do ask them to complete a lost parcel declaration "to help claim back from Royal Mail" and 99% are happy with this.

 

[MH1]

I always ask the client to send a full statement regarding having not received their item, to be passed onto the Royal Mail and Police who were already investigating several other recent claims. Once received I can happily send out a replacement or refund.

Strangely, around 85% of clients suddenly receive their orders that same day, or a neighbour had it all the time etc. Cuts down on fraud a fair bit.

 

[Mister B]

Recorded can actually work against you.

One of our parcels was "signed" for a while ago, but obviously not by the customer. Accordingly, the claim was refused by the RM, as the goods had obviously been delivered.

Now, if we had used normal parcel post, we would have been eligible to claim for the cost of the goods...

As Boxby says, anything uber important, send special delivery.

Mister B

 

[movietub]

We too suffer the same! It's inevitable. Sadly the DSRs are very one sided. They have to be written in the public interest, and most of the public are shoppers, not shop keepers!

I think the rules do need sorting out in regards proof of delivery. At very least RM/courier should not advertise 'proof' of delivery services if the proof is not officially recognised. These changes will happen as more and more people rely on online shopping - from both sides of the fence.

In the meant time it's not a big enough problem to seriously damage a business. Its just bloody annoying! 9/10 when we tell a customer they signed and we are not sending out another parcel we never hear from them again. I know DSRs say we should but common sense tells us we should not. So far no one has made serious issue with this. Most blaggers give up and we never hear anything more from them.

Once in a blue moon we get ripped off/reverse charged and we know it was planned. But we cope, we have no power to protect ourselves against it sadly.

 

[theweeguy]

I use Protx as the payment gateway and I use Tuffnells to deliver and in the past 12 months I have had one fraud order (Hungary) and not one "never received the goods". Every order is signed for and i receive signed delivery notes from Tuffnells.

 

[WarbyGK]

Very current this as we've recently had a customer who's provoked us to review our policy. First pair of goalkeeper gloves not received, replacement pair not received either, but third pair sent via recorded delivery......received!

It is still more economical for us to trust RM's First Class, as we have great customers with a tiny, tiny percentage of "chancers" but we'll now send any replacement via Recorded. And I agree, as soon as the Police are mentioned, magically the customer has received the goods.....

 

[Alicatt]

Very current this as we've recently had a customer who's provoked us to review our policy. First pair of goalkeeper gloves not received, replacement pair not received either, but third pair sent via recorded delivery......received!

It is still more economical for us to trust RM's First Class, as we have great customers with a tiny, tiny percentage of "chancers" but we'll now send any replacement via Recorded. And I agree, as soon as the Police are mentioned, magically the customer has received the goods.....

Agree - if you have any doubts about the customer always send the replacements by a signed for service.

 

[thebigIAM]

Our normal postie is pretty good, but when he goes on hols there's often a glitch. I can think of at least three instances in the past six months where we have received a signed for package without any signature being asked for.

 

[Angels Avenue]

I always ask the client to send a full statement regarding having not received their item, to be passed onto the Royal Mail and Police who were already investigating several other recent claims. Once received I can happily send out a replacement or refund.

Strangely, around 85% of clients suddenly receive their orders that same day, or a neighbour had it all the time etc. Cuts down on fraud a fair bit.

Do you mind posting a sample email you send to your customers? I would like to mention the Royal Mail and the Police but in a professional, non-offensive way in case the claim is genuine. Having trouble with the words

 

[mhall]

Yet another reason to not buy or sell on line. I am a grump.

 

[StefanK]

I think it is going to come down to having a service where the delivery man takes a photo of the customer receiving the item, and it being available to the retailer and customer.

Delivery companies do need to sort out their staff though. Time and time again they leave deliveries, including high value goods, out on the door-step, or even with neighbours when you have explicitly asked them not to (even though I would leave mine with my neighbours).

Recently, I have heard of a case where Amazon claimed to have delivered a Dyson and left it in a garage which was locked. The customer never received the item and a second unit had to be dispatched. Also I know about a John Lewis laptop that was just left on the door-step, but on this occasion it was still there when the customer arrived, even though it was clearly marked as a laptop on the packaging. Both these items should have been signed for.

I used to run a delivery department. I know that delivery drivers can be a nightmare. The delivery firms really need to sort their drivers out as they provide opportunity for the weak link.

RM round our way are notorius for leaving parcels in wheelie bins when no-ones at home!

 

[lisaowe]

We are a small/medium size internet retailer and send valuable goods via courier, recently we received a letter from HSBC for a chargeback of £650.00 as the customer claims he has not received the goods, even though they were delivered to their address and signed for, we have sent the POD to the issuing bank as proof of delivery, it seems absolutely outrageous that the bank/credit card companies just take the customers word that the goods have not been received (the card was actually charged and goods sent 10 weeks ago and only now the customer has noticed that a £650.00 order has not arrived????) basically the bank will not take any of the risk when goods are purchased online as the customer is 'not present' they actually stated in their letter that the risk is higher to the retailer in this instance. I do not hold out much hope of getting these monies reimbursed, I noticed a thread earlier regarding sending the customer a letter, asking them to send the retailer a signed statement regarding not having received the goods that we can then forward to both the couriers and the police as evidence. Good idea I shall be putting this into action tomorrow and we'll see what happens then????

 

[oliverbanks]

Happened to me on Ebay too. Have had to refund 6 people just in December alone.

 

[LicensedToTrade]

Perhaps ironically, the national identity card could have solved this problem. Rather than a manual signing they could have them swipe their biometric card, stick their finger on the pad and bam, digital biometric signature. How can the customer possibly claim they didn't receive the parcel?

 

[lisaowe]

Think you're right about identity cards, i'm sure all of the honest folks out there would not mind a big brother state if it helped against fraud/identity theft.

 

[LicensedToTrade]

Think you're right about identity cards, i'm sure all of the honest folks out there would not mind a big brother state if it helped against fraud/identity theft.

Or alternatively, perhaps a little extreme, when royal mail deliver the recorded package, they collect the person who ordered the parcel and bring them back to the seller. There would be people in the backs of royal mail vans up and done the country.

 

[JamieM]

We are a small/medium size internet retailer and send valuable goods via courier, recently we received a letter from HSBC for a chargeback of £650.00 as the customer claims he has not received the goods, even though they were delivered to their address and signed for, we have sent the POD to the issuing bank as proof of delivery, it seems absolutely outrageous that the bank/credit card companies just take the customers word that the goods have not been received (the card was actually charged and goods sent 10 weeks ago and only now the customer has noticed that a £650.00 order has not arrived????) basically the bank will not take any of the risk when goods are purchased online as the customer is 'not present' they actually stated in their letter that the risk is higher to the retailer in this instance. I do not hold out much hope of getting these monies reimbursed, I noticed a thread earlier regarding sending the customer a letter, asking them to send the retailer a signed statement regarding not having received the goods that we can then forward to both the couriers and the police as evidence. Good idea I shall be putting this into action tomorrow and we'll see what happens then????

If you have sent proof that the goods were signed for by the cardholder then you should be fine.

 

[Consistency]

If you have sent proof that the goods were signed for by the cardholder then you should be fine.

In a fair world, yes but in this one not. Common sense does not prevail.

But then........No, I am not giving scammers ideas, it is easy enough for them. I will shut my big mouth for a change.

 

[JamieM]

In a fair world, yes but in this one not. Common sense does not prevail.

But then........No, I am not giving scammers ideas, it is easy enough for them. I will shut my big mouth for a change.

Your merchant bank has proceeded with a chargeback after you have proven the cardholder signed for the goods? Who is your merchant account with?

 

[Consistency]

Your merchant bank has proceeded with a chargeback after you have proven the cardholder signed for the goods? Who is your merchant account with?

Paypoint. We do not sell anything on line but after having a chargeback before, they just use the "cardholder not present" clause and that seems to count for everything. It is very angering indeed. In my instance the person had already put in the three digits on the 3D secure which we pay extra money for and I think many of us do otherwise we are not compliant and cannot have an account.

I don't think this caries between merchant providers as I think they are all the same on this when it comes down to the nitty grtty.

This is nonesense as they simply said well there may have been a glitch in the system and we cannot cover you for that. It makes me seethe.

This is one of the reasons I cannot stand paypal. It is hard enough with a merchant account but for people with paypal accounts who have lost their businesses through scammers and lowlifes and paypal give in every time, I have every sympathy for. It is such a hopeless case.

 

[JamieM]

Paypoint. We do not sell anything on line but after having a chargeback before, they just use the "cardholder not present" clause and that seems to count for everything. It is very angering indeed. In my instance the person had already put in the three digits on the 3D secure which we pay extra money for and I think many of us do otherwise we are not compliant and cannot have an account.

I don't think this caries between merchant providers as I think they are all the same on this when it comes down to the nitty grtty.

This is nonesense as they simply said well there may have been a glitch in the system and we cannot cover you for that. It makes me seethe.

This is one of the reasons I cannot stand paypal. It is hard enough with a merchant account but for people with paypal accounts who have lost their businesses through scammers and lowlifes and paypal give in every time, I have every sympathy for. It is such a hopeless case.

I don't really understand your post as you say you don't sell anything online yet the person entered the three digits. Where did they enter it? Also 3 digits is the AV2 code not 3D secure. And you delivered by courier and presented proof of delivery to PayPoint? Who was the courier?

Paypal is a different story altogether as they have their own ridiculous procedures. But I'll be surprised if HSBC proceed with the OP's chargeback. (if they prove the cardholder signed for the goods)

 

[Consistency]

Sorry I think I wrote my post confusingly, I do apologise so I will explain better.

We provide a service and though they paid on line, and yes it is the AV2 whatever, it all gets lost on me, - will come back.

 

[Consistency]

I did come back and edited this and explained all but then when trying to post it the message came up to say I could only edit up to 10 minutes after. Will re-do tomorrow.

 

[alexft]

Another solution is open a delivery company that takes cash and cards via pos handheld terminal from the customers D: A variation of COD

Now I see how come small pizzas dont take cards over phone ))))

I havent received my pizza 20th time ahahahahaha

 

[Consistency]

Now I see how come small pizzas dont take cards over phone ))))

I havent received my pizza 20th time ahahahahaha

That was a chukle.

Brilliant resource for overeaters anonymous!

 

[deniser]

We haven't really encountered this problem much in tens of thousands of transactions. I did get a chargeback once for someone else having signed for the parcel at the same address which left me completely baffled as it was a religious item and I was surprised that someone so religious would perpetrate a fraud!

We also had one which had been signed for which was later found at the RM depot after the customer was adamant she hadn't received it and went down there herself.

And I can only think of one more where the postman had obviously signed for it and left it on the doorstep and it then vanished. The RM actually compensated us for that one!

The bigger problem for us is when things are left at neighbour's houses and the customers doesn't want to go round there because they have fallen out with that neighbour or the neighbour has a scary dog in the front garden or some other reason which is understandable.....we then have to replace the original item and then wait for the neighbour to return to sender which amazingly they actually do rather than deliver it to the house it should have gone to.