Corporation Tax Box Ac187

[alisonpeters]

Please please please can someone help this is driving me nuts.

Im trying to submit my CT return online, but in box AC187 keep getting the error message:

"The retained profit at 2010-04-05 must tally with the value in the balance
sheet. Please check and amend your entries"

Im sure I have done everything correctly, and have submitted online before without problems.

Please can someone tell me where on the balance sheet AC187 is looking for the check figure. Ive spent hours on this this morning!!!!!!!

Many thanks

 

[DickM]

Forgive me if I'm getting the wrong end of the stick but are using on-line CT600 (Short) (2008) Version 2 for accounting periods ending on, or after 1 July 1999? As it only went up to box # 160, when I completed one for a client on 22/10/2010.
However, I must admit that HMRC appear to be continually updating their on-line input matrixes - and of course are now offering the option to submit to Co House as well.
If you need any help with completing an on-line submission then feel free to PM me. Good luck!

 

[elaine@cheapaccounting]

"The retained profit at 2010-04-05

that's an unusual year end given it is not the first year?

 

[David Griffiths]

I'm guessing that there is some facility in the HMRC online offering to put in the numbers from the accounts.

I'll also guess that, like me, most accountants won't use the HMRC online facility, but will use proprietary software, and won't therefore be able to answer the question. Having said that, it's fairly clear that the accounts numbers don't balance.

 

[MyAccountantOnline]

I'm guessing that there is some facility in the HMRC online offering to put in the numbers from the accounts.

I'll also guess that, like me, most accountants won't use the HMRC online facility, but will use proprietary software, and won't therefore be able to answer the question. Having said that, it's fairly clear that the accounts numbers don't balance.

Same here I only have up to box 160 (thats using TaxCalc)

 

[GaryMc]

You should have more boxes than that - Boxes 172 and 173 deal with Annual Investment Allowance for example.

I think the OP is talking about the HMRC product. See the link below - boxes are given a reference ACxxx if they are in the accounts template.

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/demo/agent/corporation-tax/complete2.html

 

[MyAccountantOnline]

You should have more boxes than that - Boxes 172 and 173 deal with Annual Investment Allowance for example.

I think the OP is talking about the HMRC product. See the link below - boxes are given a reference ACxxx if they are in the accounts template.

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/demo/agent/corporation-tax/complete2.html

How ridiculous - you are right Gary.

I just had a quick look at the last CT600 (short) I did and whilst the numbering ends at box 160 the boxes them jump back in the middle of the Return to 172 and 174 for AIA

 

[elaine@cheapaccounting]

You expect logic in an HMRC form

 

[GaryMc]

It is one of their better ideas, actually. Rather than go through lots of renumbering every time they add boxes, they just fit them in around.

Although they then go and create the CT600A which is just useless

 

[elaine@cheapaccounting]

It is one of their better ideas

ROFLMAO

Never thought i would hear HMRC and better ideas in same sentence

 

[MyAccountantOnline]

You expect logic in an HMRC form

Ummmm Say no more......

 

[GaryMc]

Don't know if you get any of the HMRC developer information Elaine but they are planning some very good things (if they see the light of day) around the Government aim to make Britain one of the fastest places to start a new business.

 

[elaine@cheapaccounting]

Don't know if you get any of the HMRC developer information Elaine but they are planning some very good things (if they see the light of day) around the Government aim to make Britain one of the fastest places to start a new business.

good to see that budget cuts haven't hit there.

That must be why they need to collect the £2billion:


http://www.cheapaccounting.co.uk/blog/?p=977

 

[DaveNumbers]

Have the same problem as Alisonpeters, my numbers are correct my dates are correct, HMRC help desk offer no help, has anyone got past this Box 187?

 

[quietmole]

Have the same problem as Alisonpeters, my numbers are correct my dates are correct, HMRC help desk offer no help, has anyone got past this Box 187?

You can add another one to the list - in my case it's AC218, but the same problem and error message.

Anyone out there have the answers??

Please...!

 

[elaine@cheapaccounting]

Only HMRC can solve these for you or it is an input error.

Most / all accountants use commercial software (that works!)

 

[DickM]

Have the same problem as Alisonpeters, my numbers are correct my dates are correct, HMRC help desk offer no help, has anyone got past this Box 187?

........ and quietmole's box # AC218.

If it's any consolation, I did not let these setbacks beat me, and treated the whole form as a HMRC perverse game of snakes and ladders - if any one reading this is old enough to empathise
However, it took an elongated evening/early morning stint a month or so ago @ my worn out computer, to get my first of these relatively new online CT600s to be given HMRC's automatic hallowed green light.
My take on this, is that HMRC are now trying to be "friends to all men (and women)" Co Directors/Accountants, who need to submit simultaneously to Co House and HMRC. So when you use it just for a CT600, as your Co House submission had already been submitted successfully earlier,via Cardiff's tried and trusted programme ........... those nasty HMRC gremlins come out to play, 'cos the Tax Man's system has not been debugged for "non-blanket" submissions.

 

[MDG]

To the original question, for Box 187 it's checking your retained profit figures add up. I had to double check my understanding when I did mine as I originally got the same error but hopefully this makes sense, the form does work fine if your figures are input correctly -

Previous Year
AC215 - Any Retained profit for earlier years
Plus
AC216 - Profit/loss for previous accounting period
Less
AC217 - Dividends paid in the previous accounting period
Equals
AC218 - Retained profit at end of the previous accounting period

Current Year
AC184 - Reserves at start of current return period (should equal box AC218)
Plus
AC185 - Profit/loss for current return period
Less
AC186 - Dividends paid for current return period
Equals
AC187 - Retained profit at end of current return period

Box AC187 needs to equal box AC74 in the capital and reserves section of the balance sheet. Similarly box AC218 should equal box AC75 as the same figure for the previous year. The form refers to AC74 and AC75 as profit and loss account but this is your cumulative profit/loss since you started trading not your profit/loss just for that period.

 

[Birdyboy]

I have the same problem, AC68 =AC74 =AC187 also AC69=AC75 = AC218 and AC75 are also equal but it still gives the error and I have tried adjusting various things buy a pound. Whats the best route to progress, abandon and return a paper copy or phone the help desk? I am on version CT600_202. Maybe there is a later fixed one.

 

[DaveNumbers]

MDG gives the full solution, the cumulated profit was the key that unlocked the form for me , keep trying it does work and is far easier than nasty paper copies that will come back anyway unless you get it perfect.

 

[Birdyboy]

Thanks Dave, I understand the cummulative profit and I think that what I have. The thing is I dont have to file this company accounts bit with HMRC, I could send paper or fill in the form on the Companies house site as I did last year. Its just frustrating to get it all in and looking correct but it gives and error saying things dont agree when they appear to - it must also be checking something else. I wonder if its cos my previous years (2008) retained profit is negative, I would expect so as a company is allowed to make a loss.
I assume the balance sheet totals (AC68 and AC69) are cummulative and the profit and loss ones are for the year only.

 

[DickM]

This form was not user friendly when I last played with it- end of!

My advice is (as it's too near Xmas to try and break the da vinci code!); do your Co House bit on-line with CH, and just use HMRC's on-line CT600 for their return (excluding Co House stuff). It worked for me OK a few months ago, and I will be 'nose to the grind' during the next 24 hours, submitting HMRC & Co House returns for a couple of clients exactly the same way............... Also life's too short!

Good luck! and a Merry Christmas to all

 

[Birdyboy]

Yea, got the form to work, I was a pound out between the difference between the AC187 and AC218 compared to Years profit and loss AC40. But that still didnt get rid of the error. I had to close and open the form for it to be properly recalculated. - worth noting that. Great this forum, so different to battling it out on your own - with rage against the machine.

Ta all

 

[DickM]

Thanks for the tip - it's another great piece of feedback - that can be the difference in bathing in the heavenly glow of cracking HMRC's ENIGMA m/c - or putting your sledgehammer thru' your computer monitor @ 3.00 a.m. in the morning.

In reality, those who have had experience of writing, implementing and testing new systems/programmes for global corporations, would probably faint if they walked into HMRC's systems/software/programming Centre ...... of Excellence????? .............

Without even opening the door and 'avin a look ........ my take is that they have employed, and still are hiring anyone who claims to be a "tekky" - they are then thrown in @ the deep end of high level systems development, and of course don't have a Scooby Doo
Then you have the language and Ethnic barriers thrown into the mix, and the result is C - H - A - O - S ! Those who can't stand the heat then are probably offered to supplement the dreaded "No answer" Help Desk.
Still, perhaps Mr Cameron might get his teeth into HMRC, after all it's one of his main revenue streams .......... God help him & us.
Or he can just add it to his list of "ex-Chancellor & PM Gordon Brown legacies" ...........

If anyone doubts this, look what has happened in the last year since Co House, Cardiff's Ltd Company Accounts stewardship has been "shared" with the monolithic HMRC - to no doubt save money/resources ............. I rest my case.

 

[taxfrazzled]

To the original question, for Box 187 it's checking your retained profit figures add up. I had to double check my understanding when I did mine as I originally got the same error but hopefully this makes sense, the form does work fine if your figures are input correctly -

Previous Year
AC215 - Any Retained profit for earlier years
Plus
AC216 - Profit/loss for previous accounting period
Less
AC217 - Dividends paid in the previous accounting period
Equals
AC218 - Retained profit at end of the previous accounting period

Current Year
AC184 - Reserves at start of current return period (should equal box AC218)
Plus
AC185 - Profit/loss for current return period
Less
AC186 - Dividends paid for current return period
Equals
AC187 - Retained profit at end of current return period

Box AC187 needs to equal box AC74 in the capital and reserves section of the balance sheet. Similarly box AC218 should equal box AC75 as the same figure for the previous year. The form refers to AC74 and AC75 as profit and loss account but this is your cumulative profit/loss since you started trading not your profit/loss just for that period.

Unfortunately Boxes AC72 and AC73 are now absent, so that Share Premium cannot be entered, the only way to balance the balance sheet is to adjust the Profit and Loss in boxes A74 and A75. Have tried to use the Revaluation Reserve boxes instead with an explanatory note but this completely distorts the accounts and requires further workarounds. This latest form is a complete mess and HMRC on-line help is useless.

 

[taxfrazzled]

Re the dreaded CT form, my local CT office told me that Share Premium does not exist (this means that last year's form was wrong) and that the P&L figures should be adjusted to make the balance sheet tally. Now I may just be being silly, but without it the figures are not an accurate reflection of the capitalisation of a business.

 

[L0W]

I have the same problem. But, I think it is because in box AC14 (Cost of sales) I do not (and believe should not) include salaries, travel costs, depreciation, etc. This means that in box AC40 (Net balance for the financial period transferred to reserves) the figure is similar to my turnover (say £50,000) as there is nowhere else on this first page to record these sorts of costs.

But in my balance sheet I have necessarily already accounted for all these, so my net assets (box AC68) is say £5,000. I think all that is correct, but then AC187 (£50,000) will not equal AC68 (£5,000) and I get a red error message so can not proceed any further.

Anyone got any ideas on how to get round this?

 

[Amodeus]

Hello all!

I see many people have the same problem as me.

My situation is as follows: This is our first CT return and the company made a loss (trading loss). So, AC32 (Profit or (loss) on ordinary activities
before taxation) is negative, so should be AC34 (Tax on profit or loss on ordinary activities) and, thus AC36 (Profit or (loss) for the financial year).

Here starts the problems. AC74 (Profit and Loss account) should be equal to AC36 (Profit or (loss) for the financial year). But then it won't balance with AC68 (Total net assets (liabilities)) because in AC74 (Profit and Loss account) Tax credit (credit, because we make loss, and thus Tax is negative) is accounted, but it is not accounted anywhere in the AC68 (Total net assets (liabilities)).

Why my problem is similar is because if I will use value of AC32 (Profit or (loss) on ordinary activities before taxation) in the field AC74 (Profit and Loss account), then Balance sheet will be balanced. But then I will have a problem with AC187 (Retained profit), because there AC185 (Profit for year) is filled automatically from AC36 (Profit or (loss) for the financial year).

Here comes the problem. There is a tax loss, but I would like to carry this loss forward to the future periods, not to get a repayment from HMRC.

I have two ideas of how to deal with it:

1) Should I leave AC34 (Tax on profit or loss on ordinary activities) £nil and balance everything nicely and just in the next period enter this negative value in the deferred tax field to offset that period taxable profit?

2) Or I should enter the full amount of negative tax in AC34 and account it somewhere in the Balance sheet? But then, how can I account deferred tax? I understand, that it should be some kind of "Deferred tax asset" account in the charts, but what will be the transaction. I will debit "Deferred tax asset" account for necessary amount, but what account(s) should I credit in this case???

I suspect, the first option is closer to the truth, but could somebody please, advice me. Probably somebody have done it already and HMRC accepted it?

By the way, I have filed abbrevated accounts to CH without any problem, but here, just problems... Their samples account are stupid and I can't work out how they got some of their figures there.

Many thanks in advance.

Best wishes to all!

Vitaly.

 

[DeanCo]

Do you have experience in filing corporation tax returns? If this is your first ever return DIY is not recommended.

 

[Amodeus]

No, I do not have experience in filing corporation tax returns. That is why I am asking this question.

As I said, the company has made a loss, the turnover is nil for this period and as the first period is more than 1 year long, it was divided into two, so I need to make two returns, which will cost me quite a lot to use accountant service.

I honestly do not want to spend that amount of money right now as I am a little bit tight right now.

Please, somebody, help me! Give me some advice here.

Many thanks in advance.

Best wishes to all!

Vitaly.

 

[deskjet640c]

This thread has helped me loads - thanks to all involved!

One more quick question.

Does anyone know what AC number it is where I should declare the amount of a directors loan to the company? There seems to be many different places it could fit.

Thanks in advance.

 

[petros3]

Do you have experience in filing corporation tax returns? If this is your first ever return DIY is not recommended.

Ha! The biggest problem I have with my current CH and CT returns is correcting the blunders which my accountant made last year. I'll never trust an accountant again.

 

[DickM]

Ha! The biggest problem I have with my current CH and CT returns is correcting the blunders which my accountant made last year. I'll never trust an accountant again.

You have only just joined this forum, and your first post is a derogatory view of all accountants after one bad experience? Very sad ..............

 

[petros3]

You have only just joined this forum, and your first post is a derogatory view of all accountants after one bad experience? Very sad ..............

How many bad experiences should I have before I complain? I only mentioned one bad experience but it was the last of a quite long line.

I didn't say anything derogatory about all accountants, I just said that I'll never trust an accountant again. I'm sure there are good accountants out there but how will I know which one to trust?

 

[jj72125]

for me it was just a rounding issue (it was resolved by adding £1 to cash at bank (ac54)) and ensuring the form was saved before leaving every page

 

[Graham Wright]

To the original question, for Box 187 it's checking your retained profit figures add up. I had to double check my understanding when I did mine as I originally got the same error but hopefully this makes sense, the form does work fine if your figures are input correctly -

Previous Year
AC215 - Any Retained profit for earlier years
Plus
AC216 - Profit/loss for previous accounting period
Less
AC217 - Dividends paid in the previous accounting period
Equals
AC218 - Retained profit at end of the previous accounting period

Current Year
AC184 - Reserves at start of current return period (should equal box AC218)
Plus
AC185 - Profit/loss for current return period
Less
AC186 - Dividends paid for current return period
Equals
AC187 - Retained profit at end of current return period

Box AC187 needs to equal box AC74 in the capital and reserves section of the balance sheet. Similarly box AC218 should equal box AC75 as the same figure for the previous year. The form refers to AC74 and AC75 as profit and loss account but this is your cumulative profit/loss since you started trading not your profit/loss just for that period.

My experience is probably bit late but…………

Having gone round and round in circles trying to find out why there was an error claiming AC187 and AC 74 were different when they were not, I looked at the online help guide which advised that the warning would remain irrespective of the absence of an error until the "NEXT" button was clicked.

It did indeed fix my problem.