- Original Poster
- #1
Good afternoon all,
I originally drafted a post that was 21,000 characters with correspondence (business names and emails omitted) but couldn't post it due to a 10k character limit.
So I'll keep it short, but everything I have is correct and in writing. If anyone does read, kudos to you, you might want to make a cuppa in advance...
May 2024 purchased a list of nursing/care homes contact info from a ICO registered LTD company. Agreement was multiuse rather than one time use, 12 months.
Agreed £625+VAT to fit my budget of £750, this was down from £1450+VAT they quoted me. All their pricing on the website is +VAT @ 20%.
They sent me a link via Stripe, paid, received list in Excel.
August 23rd, the seller emails me asking how we're getting on with the list, offered discounts on other sectors, but I never replied.
Sept 7th, I get a notification on my banking app - £750 declined due to insufficient funds. I checked - it was attempted by the above company.
I emailed them, asking why, they said they do not have access to card details, nor store them, and any payments by card would need authorising by myself.
I said I didn't believe them. They confirmed again and offered a £25 gesture of goodwill, I said no, and that I would contact my bank and Stripe. A reply and gesture of £50 was offered along with "upon further investigation, I found that because your email hello@ was similar to another customer we were taking payment from, you were accidentally selected for a renewal payment..."
Too fishy, and I stated that they had contradicted themselves, saying they couldn't do it, don't store details etc...
I told them to revise their gesture as they had misused my details and required me to change all my cards, payment details, google wallet etc
In the end £250 compensation (not part refund) was offered and agreed I would not take further action.
The refund was provided by bank transfer from a person, not business name. I checked Companies House - it came from the name of the director who had resigned 2-3 weeks prior. Strange? I think so.
Anyway, it got more interesting. 2 weeks ago, I get an email from another data company, asking where we had obtained the list from I purchased as they received an email to one of their "seed"/fake emails they put in a false entry to help track any misuse from their brokers or brokers' clients.
I told them where we got it from, and this company was not a broker or client of one of their brokers at any point in 2024.
I was asked to stop using the database and delete it. So now I have spent £750 on a database I cannot use, should not have been using as the original owner provides brokers and clients with access to a system which updates monthly with the contact marketing preferences - this list was possible months, perhaps over 1 year old, and not compliant, potentially putting my business into difficulty.
I email the seller, asking to confirm if they compiled this list themselves, they said yes, but some datasets not.
Anyway, back and forth, I put in a particular word that would have made them realise I knew something, and they told me that "following my refund of half the amount, our business relationship ended and you told us you didn't trust us, therefore your license ended".
Firstly, it wasn't a refund, definitely not half and also, they can't really be giving me any term and conditions for the use of a database they had no right to resell or redistribute.
I do some more digging - T&Cs on their website word for word that of the original owner, just in a word doc rather than on their website - possibly to not show up in any matches if searched and their own logo added. Also, their database overviews match word for word and layout.
I demanded a refund, it was refused twice. Was told to stop emailing and my email would be blocked now... I went via their website contact form instead... they are claiming I am now harassing them - I won't be blocked, ignored or cheated.
I then thought to report to Stripe - I saw there was an invoice when I made the payment - no VAT number but I was charged VAT...
I have searched, and no VAT number for this company, not on their website either (not a legal requirement but on invoices etc it is essential...
I asked for their VAT number... reply completely avoided it, telling us to stop emailing and to accept the "refund" as termination of business relationship. I said I would go to Stripe and my bank to recover the £750. They told me they closed their Stripe account - most likely Stripe themselves than the company.
So, I spoke to a friend, he suggested he emails expressing interest in the same list, getting a price of £1450+vat but £200 off if ordered that day.
We "proceeded" and we get a paypal link, with invoice, VAT charged, no VAT number, but we also requested BACS details - in reply was told Paypal was the quickest way to make payment and receive the database. We gave a reason that we had reached our credit card limit and unless BACS details could be provided (one of the methods they even told us could be used), we would have to wait until November. We haven't highlighted the lack of VAT number yet as it may ruin our chance of getting further useful info...
30 minutes later - in short - please see revised invoice, when making payment it may tell you the detail do not much but they are definitely correct. Instantly we knew something was wrong - we knew that payers can override incorrect payee names and accept responsibility, and funds will go to the account of the sort code and account number.
We then say "sorry, our bank wouldn't let us transfer or override the payee name, but we know if a sole trader to begin with then changing to a Ltd company, the authorised name on the account would usually work".
Of course, as this person is desperate, "Please use name of ##### ##### who is our company owner".
We said thanks and that we have a meeting with our accountant shortly so if any issues will maybe try via the accountant and we make payment to them.
2 hours later - we go back - my accountant has asked me to request a revised invoice with VAT number, then we will make payment.
Reply back - actual words...
"
If you pay by BACS then we don't charge VAT, so the payment will be £1,250 no VAT - Multi Use.
A revised pro forma invoice is attached, and if you email me once the payment has been made, I can then get the data sent."
This is wrong on all levels, right?
We said "we do not mind paying the VAT as we will later claim this back, please provide this for us to make payment".
He then replies with an amended invoice, with a VAT number.
Actual words..
"
I have attached a revised pro forma invoice with our VAT number.
The registration is in the self employed name of the company owner, who's bank account details are the ones that you have.
Please let me know once the payment has been made."
So, can the Ltd company who "charge" VAT use a VAT number of an individual, one who actually resigned as director 2 months ago, or not?
Did they just confirm we have the bank details of an individual now, not a businesses?
We reply saying thanks, and to confirm it is a business or personal account, and which bank in case we have to call to make a transfer.
"
The account is with TSB, and a self employed account.
It should go through on either personal or business account.
If you send the transaction as an invoice payment with the reference, then when it arrives the order will be confirmed and sent to you."
The pro forma states <business name> with the Ltd removed, and this is how we accept bank transfers.
If you make the payment then a paid VAT invoice will be emailed to you, and the data will also be sent within an hour of receipt.
Our bank has flagged your attempted payment yesterday, so please can let me know from where this transaction originated from."
None of this makes sense.
We also didn't actually attempt a payment either, but knew it was a TSB account from a sort code search and contacted TSB the day before.
"I have heard back from my accountant - he informs me that you cannot be self-employed/sole trader and a limited company.
He also has advised me to not proceed with a purchase for various reasons as a result of our correspondence, his findings and due diligence, which should we proceed, would complicate matters for himself."
Not heard back, however, did receive a reminder from Paypal to make payment.
Wise - my bank - said it was outside of 120 days so cannot claim a refund, but have asked for me to provide all evidence which I have including the "fake order".
Hopefully they will see that I should get a refund and was conned by a company trying to avoid tax, claim tax without VAT numbers, sell something that wasn't theirs and more.
Stripe do not accept claims, has to be done by your bank.
What else should I do, any advice or thoughts?
ICO I will report to.
What if my bank says no? Shall I try via TSB?
I want my £750 back at least, should I take legal action and for what? Selling me something believed to be compliant that my business used which turns out not to be? Deception... so on and so forth.
Has been a very stressful past couple of weeks dealing with this, any help, thoughts and/or advice would be gratefully received.
Many thanks
Ball87
I originally drafted a post that was 21,000 characters with correspondence (business names and emails omitted) but couldn't post it due to a 10k character limit.
So I'll keep it short, but everything I have is correct and in writing. If anyone does read, kudos to you, you might want to make a cuppa in advance...
May 2024 purchased a list of nursing/care homes contact info from a ICO registered LTD company. Agreement was multiuse rather than one time use, 12 months.
Agreed £625+VAT to fit my budget of £750, this was down from £1450+VAT they quoted me. All their pricing on the website is +VAT @ 20%.
They sent me a link via Stripe, paid, received list in Excel.
August 23rd, the seller emails me asking how we're getting on with the list, offered discounts on other sectors, but I never replied.
Sept 7th, I get a notification on my banking app - £750 declined due to insufficient funds. I checked - it was attempted by the above company.
I emailed them, asking why, they said they do not have access to card details, nor store them, and any payments by card would need authorising by myself.
I said I didn't believe them. They confirmed again and offered a £25 gesture of goodwill, I said no, and that I would contact my bank and Stripe. A reply and gesture of £50 was offered along with "upon further investigation, I found that because your email hello@ was similar to another customer we were taking payment from, you were accidentally selected for a renewal payment..."
Too fishy, and I stated that they had contradicted themselves, saying they couldn't do it, don't store details etc...
I told them to revise their gesture as they had misused my details and required me to change all my cards, payment details, google wallet etc
In the end £250 compensation (not part refund) was offered and agreed I would not take further action.
The refund was provided by bank transfer from a person, not business name. I checked Companies House - it came from the name of the director who had resigned 2-3 weeks prior. Strange? I think so.
Anyway, it got more interesting. 2 weeks ago, I get an email from another data company, asking where we had obtained the list from I purchased as they received an email to one of their "seed"/fake emails they put in a false entry to help track any misuse from their brokers or brokers' clients.
I told them where we got it from, and this company was not a broker or client of one of their brokers at any point in 2024.
I was asked to stop using the database and delete it. So now I have spent £750 on a database I cannot use, should not have been using as the original owner provides brokers and clients with access to a system which updates monthly with the contact marketing preferences - this list was possible months, perhaps over 1 year old, and not compliant, potentially putting my business into difficulty.
I email the seller, asking to confirm if they compiled this list themselves, they said yes, but some datasets not.
Anyway, back and forth, I put in a particular word that would have made them realise I knew something, and they told me that "following my refund of half the amount, our business relationship ended and you told us you didn't trust us, therefore your license ended".
Firstly, it wasn't a refund, definitely not half and also, they can't really be giving me any term and conditions for the use of a database they had no right to resell or redistribute.
I do some more digging - T&Cs on their website word for word that of the original owner, just in a word doc rather than on their website - possibly to not show up in any matches if searched and their own logo added. Also, their database overviews match word for word and layout.
I demanded a refund, it was refused twice. Was told to stop emailing and my email would be blocked now... I went via their website contact form instead... they are claiming I am now harassing them - I won't be blocked, ignored or cheated.
I then thought to report to Stripe - I saw there was an invoice when I made the payment - no VAT number but I was charged VAT...
I have searched, and no VAT number for this company, not on their website either (not a legal requirement but on invoices etc it is essential...
I asked for their VAT number... reply completely avoided it, telling us to stop emailing and to accept the "refund" as termination of business relationship. I said I would go to Stripe and my bank to recover the £750. They told me they closed their Stripe account - most likely Stripe themselves than the company.
So, I spoke to a friend, he suggested he emails expressing interest in the same list, getting a price of £1450+vat but £200 off if ordered that day.
We "proceeded" and we get a paypal link, with invoice, VAT charged, no VAT number, but we also requested BACS details - in reply was told Paypal was the quickest way to make payment and receive the database. We gave a reason that we had reached our credit card limit and unless BACS details could be provided (one of the methods they even told us could be used), we would have to wait until November. We haven't highlighted the lack of VAT number yet as it may ruin our chance of getting further useful info...
30 minutes later - in short - please see revised invoice, when making payment it may tell you the detail do not much but they are definitely correct. Instantly we knew something was wrong - we knew that payers can override incorrect payee names and accept responsibility, and funds will go to the account of the sort code and account number.
We then say "sorry, our bank wouldn't let us transfer or override the payee name, but we know if a sole trader to begin with then changing to a Ltd company, the authorised name on the account would usually work".
Of course, as this person is desperate, "Please use name of ##### ##### who is our company owner".
We said thanks and that we have a meeting with our accountant shortly so if any issues will maybe try via the accountant and we make payment to them.
2 hours later - we go back - my accountant has asked me to request a revised invoice with VAT number, then we will make payment.
Reply back - actual words...
"
If you pay by BACS then we don't charge VAT, so the payment will be £1,250 no VAT - Multi Use.
A revised pro forma invoice is attached, and if you email me once the payment has been made, I can then get the data sent."
This is wrong on all levels, right?
We said "we do not mind paying the VAT as we will later claim this back, please provide this for us to make payment".
He then replies with an amended invoice, with a VAT number.
Actual words..
"
I have attached a revised pro forma invoice with our VAT number.
The registration is in the self employed name of the company owner, who's bank account details are the ones that you have.
Please let me know once the payment has been made."
So, can the Ltd company who "charge" VAT use a VAT number of an individual, one who actually resigned as director 2 months ago, or not?
Did they just confirm we have the bank details of an individual now, not a businesses?
We reply saying thanks, and to confirm it is a business or personal account, and which bank in case we have to call to make a transfer.
"
The account is with TSB, and a self employed account.
It should go through on either personal or business account.
If you send the transaction as an invoice payment with the reference, then when it arrives the order will be confirmed and sent to you."
The pro forma states <business name> with the Ltd removed, and this is how we accept bank transfers.
If you make the payment then a paid VAT invoice will be emailed to you, and the data will also be sent within an hour of receipt.
Our bank has flagged your attempted payment yesterday, so please can let me know from where this transaction originated from."
None of this makes sense.
We also didn't actually attempt a payment either, but knew it was a TSB account from a sort code search and contacted TSB the day before.
"I have heard back from my accountant - he informs me that you cannot be self-employed/sole trader and a limited company.
He also has advised me to not proceed with a purchase for various reasons as a result of our correspondence, his findings and due diligence, which should we proceed, would complicate matters for himself."
Not heard back, however, did receive a reminder from Paypal to make payment.
Wise - my bank - said it was outside of 120 days so cannot claim a refund, but have asked for me to provide all evidence which I have including the "fake order".
Hopefully they will see that I should get a refund and was conned by a company trying to avoid tax, claim tax without VAT numbers, sell something that wasn't theirs and more.
Stripe do not accept claims, has to be done by your bank.
What else should I do, any advice or thoughts?
ICO I will report to.
What if my bank says no? Shall I try via TSB?
I want my £750 back at least, should I take legal action and for what? Selling me something believed to be compliant that my business used which turns out not to be? Deception... so on and so forth.
Has been a very stressful past couple of weeks dealing with this, any help, thoughts and/or advice would be gratefully received.
Many thanks
Ball87
R
