Cold call about Pat testing

[paulears]

Not many will have spotted the recent advice from the Government that PAT labels now do not need a next inspection due panel because there is no mandatory period, and the entire point of testing is to build up a reliable system that improves safety, and avoids the cowboys intent on sticking labels on rather than doing actual testing. The new system needs a brain getting involved to indicate how long the gap should be - 3 years might be sensible for one item, yet 3 months for another. People with no brain, but plenty of speed won't be able to do this, because it requires skills they may not have.

 

[David A]

Not many will have spotted the recent advice from the Government that PAT labels now do not need a next inspection due panel because there is no mandatory period ...

I'd be obliged if you could post a link or source to what you have discovered.

 

[draelectricals]

Not many will have spotted the recent advice from the Government that PAT labels now do not need a next inspection due panel because there is no mandatory period, and the entire point of testing is to build up a reliable system that improves safety, and avoids the cowboys intent on sticking labels on rather than doing actual testing. The new system needs a brain getting involved to indicate how long the gap should be - 3 years might be sensible for one item, yet 3 months for another. People with no brain, but plenty of speed won't be able to do this, because it requires skills they may not have.

This has been done so the PAT companies don't control the frequency of retests because the frequency is determined by risk assessment done by the business; the risk assessment may change after the PAT has been done; if the label has an expiry date on this would now be wrong, that's why it's been removed.


Regards,

Richard Ayre
Director, DRA Solutions Ltd

 

[draelectricals]

I'd be obliged if you could post a link or source to what you have discovered.

It's in the new code of practice David; unfortunately it's not anywhere else!


Regards,

Richard Ayre
Director, DRA Solutions Ltd

 

[Lucky7CompSolutions]

At my last company they used this company being mentioned they charged us for the equipment and the leads attached to it basicly they pat tested everything and ripped the company off.

 

[UKSBD]

PAT testing should just be seen as another insurance policy.

If you are prepared to take the tiny risk that your equipment doesn't injure or kill someone then fine.

If you would prefer to pay a small fee to effectively pass the buck if anything does happen it's up to you.

That's all these things are really, a way for people to pass the buck.

 

[paulears]

I doubt you are passing the buck - PAT is a bit like an MOT, or a CRB check. Ok on the day it was done. My own experience that the visual check catches nearly all of the fails before you even test! As most fails are very simple repairs, I suspect the system is just a good one to promote general care and maintenance. Most of my testing is the same items, one after another, and after getting pass after pass, the occasional fail does indicate a problem, so a worthwhile thing. Opening up the items has only once revealed something very nasty.

In my industry, it is very common for brought in equipment to have nice green stickers - but experience shows they were actually bought on a reel, and just peppered over dodgy kit to show how safe they are. This leads me to never ever trust a sticker. I am super zealous in my visual inspections of other people's kit in my venue (but covertly done) looking for tell tale clues. IEC mains leads with non-moulded plugs being a bit of a personal quest. Sure, they could just be old, but with moulded ones so common - is there a reason for a rewireable 13A? For many years - since the 60s really, a common trick to 'cure' a humming guitar amp, was simply to lift the earth wire in the plug. I even did it myself before ignorance was replaced with education - and the possible consequences. So now I watch for these. A plug, with a piece of coloured tape around the cable next to the cable clamp. A clue to suggest this is code for 'there's no earth on this one!". Sometimes, the tape actually hides the disconnected conductor. For me, my testing is genuinely useful, and even maybe lifesaving?

I do feel sorry for the decent testing companies, because they are in competition with dangerous people, with little knowledge. It's an uphill struggle to convince people, I guess.

You also get, of course, differences of opinion on all things safety. Only a year or so ago, somebody (a big well known company in our industry) imported a load of 15A two way adaptors (Grelcos) from China - we use these things by the bucket load! Trouble was that the factory had made them slightly smaller than the old ones they had copied - and it was possible to stick the plug in, with one pin dangling outside. Especially when doing it by touch, not sight - at the top of a ladder, in the dark, over your head. Discovering a dead light, you go up the ladder, and unplug it - touching a live pin with your hand - Not good! They had to recall thousands.

 

[draelectricals]

At my last company they used this company being mentioned they charged us for the equipment and the leads attached to it basicly they pat tested everything and ripped the company off.

Youre last company wasn't ripped off; testing the equipment and the detachable leads is the correct process to follow; detachable leads detach thus they are separate items. ripping off happens if the testing isn't done at all or corners are cut.


Regards,

Richard Ayre
Director, DRA Solutions Ltd

 

[draelectricals]

I doubt you are passing the buck - PAT is a bit like an MOT, or a CRB check. Ok on the day it was done. My own experience that the visual check catches nearly all of the fails before you even test! As most fails are very simple repairs, I suspect the system is just a good one to promote general care and maintenance. Most of my testing is the same items, one after another, and after getting pass after pass, the occasional fail does indicate a problem, so a worthwhile thing. Opening up the items has only once revealed something very nasty.

In my industry, it is very common for brought in equipment to have nice green stickers - but experience shows they were actually bought on a reel, and just peppered over dodgy kit to show how safe they are. This leads me to never ever trust a sticker. I am super zealous in my visual inspections of other people's kit in my venue (but covertly done) looking for tell tale clues. IEC mains leads with non-moulded plugs being a bit of a personal quest. Sure, they could just be old, but with moulded ones so common - is there a reason for a rewireable 13A? For many years - since the 60s really, a common trick to 'cure' a humming guitar amp, was simply to lift the earth wire in the plug. I even did it myself before ignorance was replaced with education - and the possible consequences. So now I watch for these. A plug, with a piece of coloured tape around the cable next to the cable clamp. A clue to suggest this is code for 'there's no earth on this one!". Sometimes, the tape actually hides the disconnected conductor. For me, my testing is genuinely useful, and even maybe lifesaving?

I do feel sorry for the decent testing companies, because they are in competition with dangerous people, with little knowledge. It's an uphill struggle to convince people, I guess.

You also get, of course, differences of opinion on all things safety. Only a year or so ago, somebody (a big well known company in our industry) imported a load of 15A two way adaptors (Grelcos) from China - we use these things by the bucket load! Trouble was that the factory had made them slightly smaller than the old ones they had copied - and it was possible to stick the plug in, with one pin dangling outside. Especially when doing it by touch, not sight - at the top of a ladder, in the dark, over your head. Discovering a dead light, you go up the ladder, and unplug it - touching a live pin with your hand - Not good! They had to recall thousands.

Paul, this is great to hear; do you work in a theatre or arena?

What you say is good, being in your own place chances are you maintain everything well so when you do open plugs you rarely find problems. Problems inside plugs are generally due to the person that opened them up, which is why good pat testing in workplaces is a good thing; the majority of the failures i found are picked up in visual inspections, that's correct but i'll find a lot more than you think - in most offices i'll find very few but in industry and on building sites i find a great deal. As a PAT tester and owner of a bonafide and honest company I can say that the visual inspection is very important, as it's when the majority of failures are found.


Regards,

Richard Ayre
Director, DRA Solutions Ltd

 

[paulears]

I have to say that perhaps what he means is that he wasn't made aware that this means, for example, that testing a computer is TWO separate tests, and two charges. This is simply a bit sharp. I tend to agree that treating a detachable mains lead as a separate appliance does take some getting used to - and perhaps something a more expensive on paper firm might have included. After all, to do the test, you have to plug it in!

If, for example you test the computer WITH the attached cable and it passes, why would you then retest a cable that passed?

Testing with a different cable, then testing the cable is, in my humble view, not on!

Richard - mainly theatres, all over the UK and NI. Testing systems vary greatly. Some venues insist on them testing all kit being brought in themselves, to venues that have never tested anything they own. So many people are now self-employed that it makes it even worse. The amount of ignorance with PAT is fun to watch sometimes. One venue had external testers who "were not insured to climb ladders", (which we think meant the tester was afraid of heights) so anything not at ground level was excluded from the tests. We tend to test things where they are, so MWPs and ladders are part of the system. It also means testers need all sorts of adaptors as theatre kit especially is still 15A, with more and more use of 16 and 32. It even gets worse when somebody insists on testing distress - which frequently get failed because of the complication of actually connecting it.

 

[draelectricals]

I have to say that perhaps what he means is that he wasn't made aware that this means, for example, that testing a computer is TWO separate tests, and two charges. This is simply a bit sharp. I tend to agree that treating a detachable mains lead as a separate appliance does take some getting used to - and perhaps something a more expensive on paper firm might have included. After all, to do the test, you have to plug it in!

If, for example you test the computer WITH the attached cable and it passes, why would you then retest a cable that passed?

Testing with a different cable, then testing the cable is, in my humble view, not on!

Richard - mainly theatres, all over the UK and NI. Testing systems vary greatly. Some venues insist on them testing all kit being brought in themselves, to venues that have never tested anything they own. So many people are now self-employed that it makes it even worse. The amount of ignorance with PAT is fun to watch sometimes. One venue had external testers who "were not insured to climb ladders", (which we think meant the tester was afraid of heights) so anything not at ground level was excluded from the tests. We tend to test things where they are, so MWPs and ladders are part of the system. It also means testers need all sorts of adaptors as theatre kit especially is still 15A, with more and more use of 16 and 32. It even gets worse when somebody insists on testing distress - which frequently get failed because of the complication of actually connecting it.

Whether an appliance and detachable lead is one item or two in my opinion comes down to the agreement between the pat company and the client; I always speak to the client first to determine what that will be. 9 out 10 times they are 2 items.

As for theatres; I've seen it so many times; I did a job in one theatre (I was got in after the previous company had been kicked out) as they cut the 15A plugs off over 100 lamps and replaced them with 230v standard plugs!! Absolute madness.

 

[paulears]

I don't quite see the point (apart from extra test fees) - if the unit passes, then the unit AND the cable are safe - aren't they? Using your own cable to do the test, and then a separate test worries me from the moral viewpoint. It's an unnecessary test only carried out to generate income. If the appliance passes, it's clearly impossible for the test to electrically fail - so any extra charge is simply for the visual check of the IEC cable - which, if the unit has a captive cable, would have been included.

The cut off plug syndrome is sadly, far too common.

 

[Root 66 Woodshop]

The best one I've ever seen was a couple of years ago when a PAT Tester visited our shop and underwent his business.

After about half an hour I watched him PAT Test my personal Laptop... I asked him what he was doing and he stated and I quote

"Anything that uses Mains power has to be PAT tested"

As of which I agreed, but then asked him why he'd put a PAT Test sticker on my laptop?

It's the PSU that is using the Mains power NOT the Laptop!

He then showed me that he'd already tested the PSU - as of which I asked him kindly to leave. He said that he had the Manager's approval to be there and he refused to leave... I pointed out to him that I was the Manager and it was the Director's request that he was there and that it was my decision to remove him from the building.

He rang my Director straight away, and when he passed me the phone and I pointed out to my Director exactly what he had done I passed the phone back to him and he immediately left.



Since this incident we discovered that about 90% of products in our shop don't actually need to be PAT Tested.