Client Asking for Refund

[Stuart Reeve]

Hi All,

I am wanting people's professional opinion with regards to a client. So this client (Wedding Client/Bride) booked with me 2 years ago for her Wedding last year. Due to the Covid outbreak she was forced to cancel her original date and we agreed on a newer date later on in 2020, it has since been changed 2 more times due to restrictions.

The client has now contacted me stating her venue have cancelled her latest booking for the date she has in May 2021 because they are certain they will be closed (a bit pre emptiv but I called the venue and they confirmed they will be closed). I explained that there will be other venues that would accommodate her and gave her a couple of contacts but she said she can't see them being open either..

The client wants a full refund for her booking now, I did give a contract at the time of booking (pre Covid) and obviously I didn't have any clauses in there for such a thing like Covid.

What are your thoughts?

Thanks in advance

 

[japancool]

The law states that she's entitled to a refund,

 

[Frank the Insurance guy]

Need to review the contract you signed - is there a force majeur clause in there? The sort of thing that says you can not be held liable for failure of anything outside of your control?

Is there any cancellation clause in the contract - what does it say?

 

[Mark T Jones]

I'd suggest it's a goodwill discussion rather than a legal one

What is the value of a happy client in terms of referrals?

Handled well, refunding now could be far more lucrative than enforcing your legal rights

 

[Interestedobserver]

Going to be loads of situations like this where business owners have to figure out whether they can afford to give refunds and/or risk getting a bad reputation for keeping money they haven't actually earnt

(Especially with weddings - where big deposits are paid that many businesses will have already spent)

None more so than the biggest deposits of all for venues and caterers

Where weddings will now be reduced in capacity beyond the control of the couples who are getting married

It's going to be very very messy and plenty of bad news stories I'm afraid next couple of years

 

[Financial-Modeller]

In the absence of absolute contractual clarity, I can't imagine - and you haven't provided - a reason not to refund your client.

Return her deposit with a smile, and its likely that she'll call you first when she rebooks her wedding. And she'll tell her friends how accommodating you were.

 

[Mr D]

Fail to return the money and lots more people - plus maybe the media - will be notified.

 

[Paul Norman]

I think that the venue are wise in not thinking there will be a wedding event happening in May. I would suspect that the earliest events on any scale will be happening would be July, looking at how things are playing out.

Personally, given the circumstances, I would be giving a refund. Continuing to push events like this forward is just too stressful for many people.

 

[Newchodge]

You have incurred no costs, you haven't lost other business, you have not provided the service. Can you suggest any reason whatsoever, why you can withhold the deposit?

 

[paulears]

Exactly! I had numerous signed contracts for a years work last March. Then covid came, and the lot cancelled in a few weeks. Lots of the contracts had pretty solid terms re: cancellation and I could have pressed for payment, but if I did that, my future work would simply die. The production companies have made no money, the theatres have made no money so expecting to get paid for no work carried out would not be just unreasonable but stupid. The expenses incurred they said they'd settle - but I stop those myself, because one of the other production managers charged and we all know he did it, because the "Mr Mean" tag gets shared amazingly quickly.

 

[WaveJumper]

I am afraid you need to give them their money back. my son was supposed to have been married back in the summer of last year venue was shut so obviously could not go ahead the venue tried to double the price for the same wedding this year (lol) long and the short they took them to court and won they are now happily advising all the the other young couples who are having the same issues so the business has done themselves no favours

 

[Interestedobserver]

I am afraid you need to give them their money back. my son was supposed to have been married back in the summer of last year venue was shut so obviously could not go ahead the venue tried to double the price for the same wedding this year (lol) long and the short they took them to court and won they are now happily advising all the the other young couples who are having the same issues so the business has done themselves no favours

You guys do realise many of the suppliers and venues won't have the money to refund and will sadly just liquidate?

Their entire cash flow plans will have been turned upside down

Postponing events is just delaying the inevitable

 

[japancool]

You guys do realise many of the suppliers and venues won't have the money to refund and will sadly just liquidate?

That may well be true, but it's no reason not to pursue a refund.

Imagine HMRC saying "Oh, you don't have enough money to pay your taxes, we won't come after you for it then...."

 

[Mr D]

That may well be true, but it's no reason not to pursue a refund.

Imagine HMRC saying "Oh, you don't have enough money to pay your taxes, we won't come after you for it then...."

However it is very good when HMRC do say that.

 

[Interestedobserver]

That may well be true, but it's no reason not to pursue a refund.

Imagine HMRC saying "Oh, you don't have enough money to pay your taxes, we won't come after you for it then...."

I'm not saying the customer shouldn't ask and hope for a refund

Nobody has actually asked the OP if he has the money to refund and what other refunds he owes if others do the same. He may be insolvent for all we know.

But one thing I will add is that the bad news stories from weddings that aren't honored, venues that go bust, caterers, wedding dress suppliers and other suppliers that go bust with people's deposits etc will cause the entire industry so much fallout

Even the guys who are still in business and are able to honour or refund will be dragged into the bad publicity and people will think long and hard about paying deposits for weddings again for a long time

It's inevitable I'm afraid. Most of these guys will have had minimal or no income for over 18 months

Holidays are abta bonded. Flights are atol bonded.

Yet look at the problems people are having getting refunds even from the big boys in the travel industry. The wedding industry has been as badly hit if not more so than any industry

Weddings aren't bonded by anyone as far as I know?

So where are all the deposits for all those weddings?

So far it's easy for those holding the deposits as the weddings keep getting put back. Wait til they have to be honored and see how many suppliers are still there

(I'm not in the wedding industry by the way!)

Thank God!

 

[WaveJumper]

The law is simple if you can't have what you paid for you are entitled to a refund. The venue in question my son had a booking with owned by a husband and wife team who have a portfolio of six locations across the Uk consisting of everything form large manor houses to the odd castle all held in separate companies with all revenue being sucked out to their holding company. And of course they just happen to have the car hire company and catering on their books too. Now nothing wrong in any of this.
If they had said well we obviously cannot deliver the wedding this year let's sit down and try to plan something in for next year then things may have been different. But no they wanted to increase the costs as I mentioned before and wanted them to increase there deposit or loose all their money if they did not agree. The venue operators in writing to them said if you do not agree to this we take it you are cancelling your wedding and no refund will be given. Well that all blew up in the venue's face.
It would seem many companies have been using deposits paid to them to run their business's on a day to day basis and keep themselves afloat I am a firm believer these deposits should be held in a separate account.

 

[paulears]

Using future events for current costs is the norm in many businesses - The biggest pyro company in the UK just liquidated - their Christmas income was critical for the size of the business. The wedding industry exist on high margins in almost every area. The same services provided to non-weddings being much cheaper. Good business to be in. My corporate video clients would baulk at the costs wedding folk get paid. I understand their market and don't remotely want to be involved, but people shell out in advance for videos, then accept perhaps a 3 month wait for the finished product - simply because that is how it is. I don't therefore feel too bad thinking that they should return deposits in full for cancelled events - many simply don't wish to, as they've spent it.

 

[Interestedobserver]

Like I say its going to get very very messy in this industry

 

[japancool]

Using future events for current costs is the norm in many businesses - The biggest pyro company in the UK just liquidated - their Christmas income was critical for the size of the business. The wedding industry exist on high margins in almost every area. The same services provided to non-weddings being much cheaper. Good business to be in. My corporate video clients would baulk at the costs wedding folk get paid. I understand their market and don't remotely want to be involved, but people shell out in advance for videos, then accept perhaps a 3 month wait for the finished product - simply because that is how it is. I don't therefore feel too bad thinking that they should return deposits in full for cancelled events - many simply don't wish to, as they've spent it.

Travel companies do the same, but are regulated. The events industry really should be too.

 

[DontAsk]

Travel companies do the same, but are regulated. The events industry really should be too.

Anyone taking deposits really. The money should be ring fenced and only spent when absolutely necessary. What it might be spent on, and when, should be detailed in the contract so that deposit payers have transparency of what they stand to lose.

 

[Interestedobserver]

Well that's loads of industries that have to change how they operate if so.

Its not just about deposits. It's about any industry that takes payments in advance of delivering a service or an experience.

All of those industries will have reams of businesses within them in danger of being insolvent once Government withdraw support and things start to open up again

They will be expected to supply services/experiences that they no longer have the money/means to supply

Lockdown and furlough is just helping them survive longer right now I would suggest

Biggest problem will be they won't get anywhere near the level of new income compared to the past for some time now so they will just be losing any cash they have left supplying things they already have been paid for

 

[UKSBD]

Well that's loads of industries that have to change how they operate if so.

Its not just about deposits. It's about any industry that takes payments in advance of delivering a service or an experience.

All of those industries will have reams of businesses within them in danger of being insolvent once Government withdraw support and things start to open up again

They will be expected to supply services/experiences that they no longer have the money/means to supply

Lockdown and furlough is just helping them survive longer right now I would suggest

Biggest problem will be they won't get anywhere near the level of new income compared to the past for some time now so they will just be losing any cash they have left supplying things they already have been paid for

I would imagine a lot of these ones where there are multiple small companies effectively owned by the same people are filtering all the money and assets in to one company whist piling all the debt on to another.

 

[Interestedobserver]

I would imagine a lot of these ones where there are multiple small companies effectively owned by the same people are filtering all the money and assets in to one company whist piling all the debt on to another.

And paying themselves wages etc and keeping company cars etc as long as they can until the inevitable

 

[Marbman]

However it is very good when HMRC do say that.

very good indeed

 

[computerbeing]

You should refund the deposit. If you have difficulty refunding it straight away you could suggest refunding in instalments. People will be understanding if that is the case.

 

[MBE2017]

I argued in a previous wedding thread, such suppliers would be better off insuring against such cancellations, delays etc and including it into their costs.

It would also be a huge selling point, all deposits insured etc when selling such packages, book with confidence etc.

 

[MikeHunter]

My (lay) understanding is that you have a legal obligation to refund. I think there have been some high profile cases about wedding cancellations. However, the good will aspect is even more important. I know its really difficult if you are struggling for trade, but people won't book unless they are confident they can get refunds. I suspect there will be a surge in bookings once the pandemic is over, so its a question of riding out the storm in the meantime. Of course its good business if you can get rebookings rather than having to give refunds.

 

[Interestedobserver]

Goodwill of an individual supplier amongst an industry where goodwill is going to be destroyed next year or so will be worth something

But there will be a huge amount of mistrust and doubts about paying deposits again in this industry

IMO

 

[ville1401]

The law states that she's entitled to a refund,

The law does not state this.
Her venue is preventing her from getting married at the moment, she could find another.
The law states that you can withold costs you have incurred, and there have been at least 3 changes of dates, all requiring administration.
Personally, I would refund anything over the booking fee but would not refund the booking fee, particularly if you have now held 3 separate dates closed for her.
At most, I would deduct a large whack for admin work carried out in relation to these bookings, and refund the rest.
On the other hand, if its just one client, and you dont want the hassle, then give it to her and forget about her.

 

[japancool]

Her venue is preventing her from getting married at the moment, she could find another.

She contracted for her marriage to take place at that venue. The contract hasn't been fulfilled, it's not incumbent upon her to find another venue.

I fail to see why she's not entitled to a full refund. He hasn't held three dates open for her, he's rescheduled three times and they've all been cancelled due to restrictions.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...the-cmas-position-on-cancellation-and-refunds

 

[Newchodge]

At most, I would deduct a large whack for admin work carried out in relation to these bookings, and refund the rest.

And exacxtly how would you justify thelarge whack for 'admin work' in cancelling one date and putting in another?

If the OP had lost other business because they had reserved these dates for this client, they may, possibly, have a claim. But no weddings were taking place, so they have not lost any business.

 

[ville1401]

The contract is to photograph her wedding, its very rare for the venue to be included, so the whereabouts is irrelevant. Technically, at this point in time, she is cancelling her wedding.
Not quite true Cyndy, elopements have been going ahead when numbers are capped at 6 or more, so he could have booked one if the date had been free.
Most experienced wedding photographers do not take deposits, they charge retainers, which are a fee for the administration of booking and payment for removing that day from the booking calendar. Its not just about bookings, he may have lost opportunities to go on holiday that week, or attend a training seminar, etc etc. (ok, i know, lockdown, but you get my drift, its not simply, you didnt have to do the work so you cant charge anything)
The other thing is, many photographers charge very low booking fees or deposits, to avoid a barrier to entry, so even £25 charged to redoing admin and paperwork three time is £75, potentially half of the £150 many charge.
But its not really about the money is it? Its about choices, I have refunded brides in full, because they had the rug pulled from under and I couldnt shoot their new date and I have kept a couple of retainers because they could have got married, they just cancelled because they couldnt have the huge all singing all dancing show they wanted. Thats a choice, if they put the party before being married, then I feel no obligation to refund them. Its just another cost of the big dream gig.

 

[Interestedobserver]

Let's be perfectly honest. You just want to keep her money if you can get away with it?

Now if I'm being cynical and you want to do that you will no doubt get away with it

Will it harm your reputation?

Probably not as many in the industry will be doing the same thing. This bride will be upset and won't like you but at some stage more brides will come along. And the same bride won't just be let down by you. There will be others.

Many suppliers will probably liquidate having already spent/kept all their deposits and just start again with a new business name

And being very cynical and honest I'm not really sure how you can publicise you are a good guy in amongst all the bad guys etc and get any worthwhile business benefit

Like I say all the above is very cynical but I'm being realistic

So really whether you refund her or not will just come down to a couple of things:

Can you afford to?

And are you a good guy or not?

I hope that makes sense. And I'm not trying to persuade you to do either.

But this kind of decision will be happening all over the place

Nobody could predict this scenario when asking for deposits

I don't think it's honorable to keep it but I don't know your financial circumstances or how many others will be coming along next to you asking for the same refunds etc or reductions because their weddings will have become much smaller

 

[Webmango]

Keep in mind for everyone saying that it's free money at no cost - most couples spend time with me planning the types of shots, discussions around key people, key moments they want to capture, taking me through the itinerary, the feel and energy they want for their shoot, any props/prep work I need to go and do to facilitate specific shots, emails back and forth with pinterest boards the couple have made for other shots they really like and want to re-create...

It's all consultative work that happens before we even have the wedding day, and time that is built into the cost of the wedding shoot!

 

[Newchodge]

Keep in mind for everyone saying that it's free money at no cost - most couples spend time with me planning the types of shots, discussions around key people, key moments they want to capture, taking me through the itinerary, the feel and energy they want for their shoot, any props/prep work I need to go and do to facilitate specific shots, emails back and forth with pinterest boards the couple have made for other shots they really like and want to re-create...

It's all consultative work that happens before we even have the wedding day, and time that is built into the cost of the wedding shoot!

This thread died over 4 months ago.

 

[MBE2017]

This thread died over 4 months ago.

It would appear it was merely rescheduled.

 

[Webmango]

This thread died over 4 months ago.

Yeah well still. As fellow business owners pretty disparaging remarks assuming people have taken money for free and dont want to pay back. Just saying work goes into preparing which is built into the cost even though you might not have delivered the end result as yet. Surprised by the attitudes from business owners who should understand that.

As you say, thread died sorry for rescheduling!

 

[japancool]

Yeah well still. As fellow business owners pretty disparaging remarks assuming people have taken money for free and dont want to pay back. Just saying work goes into preparing which is built into the cost even though you might not have delivered the end result as yet. Surprised by the attitudes from business owners who should understand that.

None of that matters if you don't have a contract allowing to charge for that work.

 

[ville1401]

None of that matters if you don't have a contract allowing to charge for that work.

Who says they do not? My contract states that a retainer is taken (not a deposit) and in return I will remove their date from my diary. That has a value if the client wants me. I dont care what the bride thinks about it, but booking up my weekends for a year or two ahead is a big thing, and I expect to be paid for agreeing to to that, and then paid for the service rendered and package provided.
By paying a retainer, they have just paid me to remain available for them alone, so I wont ditch them if a better client comes along who wants the top package, or someone wants to book for their date after the prices have gone up, I wont ditch the original to take the more lucrative one. Or I wont decide to go on holiday instead.
I have lost count of the number of family events, friends weddings, childrens sports days, funerals, holidays etc I have been unable to attend because I was booked 18 months previously for that date. And yes, its part of the business, so I'm not moaning, merely pointing out that this is a cost to me, and I put a price on it.
Its not just that I havent done anything so should just hand back the money, I see it rather differently.
There may be many reasons to hand it back, some of them good ones, but that is not one of them.

 

[japancool]

My contract states that a retainer is taken

You, however, are not the OP.