Chinese eBay sellers with UK based stock
- Thread starter Beachbum
- Start date
C
Chinavasion
It's the Chinese mindset that if you aren't the cheapest in the market, you will go out of business. There is no creativity. This is why Chinavasion don't offer phone cases, they are too cheap and there is no added value of knowledge and great service. We need to think about our re-sellers, they have to succeed with us. We definitely don't advice them to sell phone cases.
For many Chinese sellers, they also try to get a good record for there eBay store and improve there reputation before they want to make money. They see it as an investment to break-even in the first year first (or lose money). Later they find out it doesn't work......
This is the same with many sites that copy Chinavasion. How often do you see a new Chinese site popping up that tries something similar. The owner convinced investors to pomp money in it, because they tell nice stories, but 1 year later, the investors say goodbye because they can't proof that the business can generate any money. I see sites like this go online and offline all the time.
For many Chinese sellers, they also try to get a good record for there eBay store and improve there reputation before they want to make money. They see it as an investment to break-even in the first year first (or lose money). Later they find out it doesn't work......
This is the same with many sites that copy Chinavasion. How often do you see a new Chinese site popping up that tries something similar. The owner convinced investors to pomp money in it, because they tell nice stories, but 1 year later, the investors say goodbye because they can't proof that the business can generate any money. I see sites like this go online and offline all the time.
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I think any person who sets up a company to import goods from company A, to then add a huge markup, and to then resell is asking for trouble. It's only a matter of time before company A realises they can cut you out, add their own huge markup and sell where you're selling cheaper than what you're doing. It's called... wait for it... "competition". You've been priced out of the market.
It isn't the eighties anymore, the internet has changed business as well as global connectivity. Please can we stop whinging like children, "they took our jobs". If you have this exact business practice and sell in public places (i.e. you don't have your own shop), your days are numbered as you are or you will be (quite rightly) cut out of the market; so, it's a no-brainer, either find a way to produce what you're selling cheaper than what you import for, or get out of the market.
Throwing statements around like "they're cheating VAT blah blah...aren't they?" when you're a wannabe armchair lawyer is just plain silly. If it's illegal then it's of none of your concern for three reasons: 1) if it is illegal, five more companies will pop up in their place, 2) if it isn't illegal, you've got your panties in a twist for no reason and 3) either way, you're still priced out of the market.
It isn't the eighties anymore, the internet has changed business as well as global connectivity. Please can we stop whinging like children, "they took our jobs". If you have this exact business practice and sell in public places (i.e. you don't have your own shop), your days are numbered as you are or you will be (quite rightly) cut out of the market; so, it's a no-brainer, either find a way to produce what you're selling cheaper than what you import for, or get out of the market.
Throwing statements around like "they're cheating VAT blah blah...aren't they?" when you're a wannabe armchair lawyer is just plain silly. If it's illegal then it's of none of your concern for three reasons: 1) if it is illegal, five more companies will pop up in their place, 2) if it isn't illegal, you've got your panties in a twist for no reason and 3) either way, you're still priced out of the market.
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Seems a bit harsh busy bob 
I think this discussion would be better on the legal forum where someone mght be able to shed some light?
I would say that if goods are physically stocked in UK, by amazon or anyone else., then the seller should be VAT REGISTERED. but if that isn't the case, why don't the uk businesses affected get together and see if something can be done. Use a petition site such as change.org, 38 degrees or sumofus or even the PMs own No 10 website. If a petition gets 100,000 signatures they usually set aside time for a parliamentary debate on the issue raised I think.
I think this discussion would be better on the legal forum where someone mght be able to shed some light?
I would say that if goods are physically stocked in UK, by amazon or anyone else., then the seller should be VAT REGISTERED. but if that isn't the case, why don't the uk businesses affected get together and see if something can be done. Use a petition site such as change.org, 38 degrees or sumofus or even the PMs own No 10 website. If a petition gets 100,000 signatures they usually set aside time for a parliamentary debate on the issue raised I think.
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I'm sorry if the truth sounded harsh.
So your petition would be "the competition took our jobs, get them"? Businesses are too busy being successful companies to hand-hold their competition.
Like I wrote earlier, competition is healthy and necessary because now customers can get the goods that you were selling at a ridiculous markup at a much cheaper price - that's excellent! Either you respond with an even cheaper price, or you don't.
Crying about the fact that your 1980's business model is now no good means you've rolled over and died. Either get a better business model, or shut up "shop"
Fortunately, what you say or think doesn't matter to HMRC.
So your petition would be "the competition took our jobs, get them"? Businesses are too busy being successful companies to hand-hold their competition.
Like I wrote earlier, competition is healthy and necessary because now customers can get the goods that you were selling at a ridiculous markup at a much cheaper price - that's excellent! Either you respond with an even cheaper price, or you don't.
Crying about the fact that your 1980's business model is now no good means you've rolled over and died. Either get a better business model, or shut up "shop"
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Hi bob,
This doesn't affect me but I do sympathise with these sellers - and I am not sure there is any call for the tone of your replies. we are all here hopefully to support one another and share tips and advice.
I was making what I felt might be helpful comments if they want to try to take some action.
I feel there should be a level playing field so it is wrong if uk sellers are disadvantaged by their VAT status.
Sadly, it's yet another example of amazon making its millions without a thought for others. It makes more money if it can charge for FBA. If Amazon didn't actively encourage this then I think few overseas sellers would go to the trouble and expense of arranging storage/shipping within the Uk.
This doesn't affect me but I do sympathise with these sellers - and I am not sure there is any call for the tone of your replies. we are all here hopefully to support one another and share tips and advice.
I was making what I felt might be helpful comments if they want to try to take some action.
I feel there should be a level playing field so it is wrong if uk sellers are disadvantaged by their VAT status.
Sadly, it's yet another example of amazon making its millions without a thought for others. It makes more money if it can charge for FBA. If Amazon didn't actively encourage this then I think few overseas sellers would go to the trouble and expense of arranging storage/shipping within the Uk.
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Bob, these business as not being more successful than us, they are just taking advantage of the situation to gain an unfair advantage. Same business model, same product, if we pay VAT, and they don't, there that is their competitive advantage.
Sites like Amazon and eBay (as well as not paying their fair (legal?) share of taxes in my opinion) provide a platform for many other sellers to commit vat/tax fraud as well. This is the issue that needs to be addressed to level the playing field. I don't really understand why HMRC don't deal with this issue more aggressively, its costing our economy and the British taxpayer, most probably a few billion annually, and tens of thousands of jobs.
I think the govt/public is slowly waking up to this, and I don't think it is such a difficult one to solve to be honest. I bet you if eBay/Amazon were made liable in some way they would put in place measures pretty damn quick. They make a big point of dictating the trading rules for sellers on their sites, but with tax evasion they turn a blind eye.
Sites like Amazon and eBay (as well as not paying their fair (legal?) share of taxes in my opinion) provide a platform for many other sellers to commit vat/tax fraud as well. This is the issue that needs to be addressed to level the playing field. I don't really understand why HMRC don't deal with this issue more aggressively, its costing our economy and the British taxpayer, most probably a few billion annually, and tens of thousands of jobs.
I think the govt/public is slowly waking up to this, and I don't think it is such a difficult one to solve to be honest. I bet you if eBay/Amazon were made liable in some way they would put in place measures pretty damn quick. They make a big point of dictating the trading rules for sellers on their sites, but with tax evasion they turn a blind eye.
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Well I guess it's a start (well done), a few thoughts.
It's the Daily Mirror (shame it's not one of the broadsheets)
The main cut & thrust of the story seems to be....."Those sneaky Chinese sellers are hitting British sellers hard" ....punters aren't going to feel sorry for British sellers in the least...punters just want low prices...if chinese sellers can get away with not applying 20% VAT tp their prices (& pass the savings on)...to a punter that's a win!
In my opinion, the slant of the story should have been "Amazon & Ebay complicit in VAT fraud costing UK treasury billions in lost revenue" ....Joe Public are already pretty miffed with the likes of Amazon, Starbucks etc .....hitching the story onto that strand would have got more public venting going down..
typical lame response from HMRC ...& a typical phoney 'feined concern' from the likes of Ebay (who know quite clearly if this is given serious attention it'll hit their revenue hard).
Let's hope the story gains the attention of a broadsheet journalist
It's the Daily Mirror (shame it's not one of the broadsheets)
The main cut & thrust of the story seems to be....."Those sneaky Chinese sellers are hitting British sellers hard" ....punters aren't going to feel sorry for British sellers in the least...punters just want low prices...if chinese sellers can get away with not applying 20% VAT tp their prices (& pass the savings on)...to a punter that's a win!
In my opinion, the slant of the story should have been "Amazon & Ebay complicit in VAT fraud costing UK treasury billions in lost revenue" ....Joe Public are already pretty miffed with the likes of Amazon, Starbucks etc .....hitching the story onto that strand would have got more public venting going down..
typical lame response from HMRC ...& a typical phoney 'feined concern' from the likes of Ebay (who know quite clearly if this is given serious attention it'll hit their revenue hard).
Let's hope the story gains the attention of a broadsheet journalist
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- Original Poster
- #134
It made a double page spread on in the Daily Mirror today too. Its good that it's starting to get in the press and we have a few friends on our side who are helping get the story out and willing to keep helping us.
It will be interesting to see if eBay.co.uk take any action on the sellers mentioned in the article.
Regarding the angle of the story - there are many angles the issue can be taken. This is just one take on the issue. It's a lot more complex that 5 Chinese eBay sellers not registered for VAT
At this stage there is plenty more to do and more action to be taken. A concise action plan needs to be put together.
1) Broad sheets - I am already speaking to a couple of journalists who are interested in the story
2) Campaign - we are just a lot of small voices. We now need to setup a campaign group, clearly defining the issues and outlining what needs to be done.
3)Setup social media campaign too.
4) Setup a government petition.
5) Get it on the political agenda.
If anyone would like to see a copy of the full report please direct message me - I will need to see your eBay user name first!!!
It will be interesting to see if eBay.co.uk take any action on the sellers mentioned in the article.
Regarding the angle of the story - there are many angles the issue can be taken. This is just one take on the issue. It's a lot more complex that 5 Chinese eBay sellers not registered for VAT
At this stage there is plenty more to do and more action to be taken. A concise action plan needs to be put together.
1) Broad sheets - I am already speaking to a couple of journalists who are interested in the story
2) Campaign - we are just a lot of small voices. We now need to setup a campaign group, clearly defining the issues and outlining what needs to be done.
3)Setup social media campaign too.
4) Setup a government petition.
5) Get it on the political agenda.
If anyone would like to see a copy of the full report please direct message me - I will need to see your eBay user name first!!!
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- Original Poster
- #136
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201314/cmselect/cmpubacc/112/112we04.htm
non-established taxable persons (NETP)—currently HMRC has 7,768 NETPs registered. In 2012–13 they declared a net total of £2 billion VAT. Of these 612 were making retail sales via mail order or the Internet and were responsible for net VAT receipts of £44.8 million.
non-established taxable persons (NETP)—currently HMRC has 7,768 NETPs registered. In 2012–13 they declared a net total of £2 billion VAT. Of these 612 were making retail sales via mail order or the Internet and were responsible for net VAT receipts of £44.8 million.
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It's an interesting article, if a little amateurish, if I may say so.
The problem is not with Chinese sellers (I am NOT Chinese) on eBay and the like, rather than with eBay, Amazon and HMRC getting their house in order.
As far as HMRC are concerned it is unlikely the will spend a greater amount of money to "get in" what may be owed as well as the possible complexities of doing this with sellers abroad.
Of course everybody must pay their due taxes etc etc. I wonder how many British importers under declare their import values in order to reduce their import duty and VAT payments.
The principle is the same.
Unfortunately we live in a world where due to global selling platforms, those with the greater buying power as well as the fact that suppliers now are selling direct, will inevitably mean businesses who were in the "comfort" zone, 5 years ago with little competition are now awake to the global competition that exists.
It's a hard, but sad fact to swallow.
The problem is not with Chinese sellers (I am NOT Chinese) on eBay and the like, rather than with eBay, Amazon and HMRC getting their house in order.
As far as HMRC are concerned it is unlikely the will spend a greater amount of money to "get in" what may be owed as well as the possible complexities of doing this with sellers abroad.
Of course everybody must pay their due taxes etc etc. I wonder how many British importers under declare their import values in order to reduce their import duty and VAT payments.
The principle is the same.
Unfortunately we live in a world where due to global selling platforms, those with the greater buying power as well as the fact that suppliers now are selling direct, will inevitably mean businesses who were in the "comfort" zone, 5 years ago with little competition are now awake to the global competition that exists.
It's a hard, but sad fact to swallow.
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Good that finally this issue is getting some press!! The article could have been written better for sure, but its a start.
It applies to all sellers committing VAT fraud, the Chinese and non-EU sellers, and UK/EU and who exceed the annual VAT registration limit. HMRC will never get the VAT back in all cases, but stopping it to start with will result in UK companies paying more VAT so same net effect.
Pish-pash got it spot on with the headline, its a joke when Amazon/eBay say they take VAT fraud seriously.
It applies to all sellers committing VAT fraud, the Chinese and non-EU sellers, and UK/EU and who exceed the annual VAT registration limit. HMRC will never get the VAT back in all cases, but stopping it to start with will result in UK companies paying more VAT so same net effect.
Pish-pash got it spot on with the headline, its a joke when Amazon/eBay say they take VAT fraud seriously.
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There is a huge difference between rules and regulations and being able to enforce them (in a cost effective manner).
I would say that there is far more fraud being committed by British importers under declaring product costs, which results in "lost" revenue to HMRC.
Where should they start and how far will they get?
I would say that there is far more fraud being committed by British importers under declaring product costs, which results in "lost" revenue to HMRC.
Where should they start and how far will they get?
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When I import goods either via air courier or container, import duties are minimal to be honest, VAT is the main import tax, and I can claim that back.
It would be very easy to enforce, like everything online, it can all be automatic, for example:
- if company registered outside EU like China, and goods location UK, ebay/amazon automatically deduct VAT at source and pay to HMRC
- when a UK/EU seller has sold more than 80k on their platform in the proceeding 12 months, again start automatically deducting VAT at source, they inform HMRC, and wait for a verified VAT number to be provided. If companies are legit they can claim back as credit on next VAT return.
Not exactly complicated, or difficult to enforce.
It would be very easy to enforce, like everything online, it can all be automatic, for example:
- if company registered outside EU like China, and goods location UK, ebay/amazon automatically deduct VAT at source and pay to HMRC
- when a UK/EU seller has sold more than 80k on their platform in the proceeding 12 months, again start automatically deducting VAT at source, they inform HMRC, and wait for a verified VAT number to be provided. If companies are legit they can claim back as credit on next VAT return.
Not exactly complicated, or difficult to enforce.
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My Office in China
Underdeclaration only makes a difference if the person importing is not vat registered, or if they are VAT registered then in lost duty (which is much lower than VAT anyway).
VAT Fraud is a problem that needs to be tackled and I am certain it goes on domestically as well, however Chinese sellers doing this provide very little benefit to UK economy and is probably easier to tackle than underdeclaration by domestic importers.
Amazon and Ebay turn a blind eye to this because they have been deliberately trying to win Chinese customers as they have lost the domestic market to other chinese companies (Alibaba etc.). This is a way to claw some of that market by growing the international B2C service through their platforms. VAT fraud makes this easier to do
Underdeclaration only makes a difference if the person importing is not vat registered, or if they are VAT registered then in lost duty (which is much lower than VAT anyway).
VAT Fraud is a problem that needs to be tackled and I am certain it goes on domestically as well, however Chinese sellers doing this provide very little benefit to UK economy and is probably easier to tackle than underdeclaration by domestic importers.
Amazon and Ebay turn a blind eye to this because they have been deliberately trying to win Chinese customers as they have lost the domestic market to other chinese companies (Alibaba etc.). This is a way to claw some of that market by growing the international B2C service through their platforms. VAT fraud makes this easier to do
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Import duty varies from 0% to over 20% for some products.
I agree that any VAT registered business can claim the VAT back, but how many non VAT registered businesses are there trading online that would "prefer" to pay less VAT on their imports ?
I imagine this happens and the value of VAT "lost" is huge.
Enforcing sounds easy in theory, but I personally do not know the legalities of a 3rd party, eBay for example, collecting VAT payments on behalf of HMRC and then forwarding the payments received to HMRC.
I doubt thT eBay, Amazon or any other online peeling platform would want to be involved with this type of procedure, it can become very complex when you are a global online platform.
I agree that everybody should pay all taxes due, just not sure that HMRC has the manpower or priority to focus on this issue as well as requiring eBay, Amazon etc etc to be a part of the collection procedure.
As an aside, when foreign sellers import their products into the UK and are not registered for VAT, the VAT they pay at the point of entry cannot be claimed back, where as a registered VAT business can claim this back.
Does this affect the theory that there is an advantage for foreign sellers not charging VAT, as in the above scenario, they pay VAT once, which is the same NET affect of a UK seller who pays twice and claims back, once.
The only differentiation is the selling profit element and given the low prices they sell for the VAT on this element will be very low.
It's a complex issue and perhaps the main problem is to ensure all VAT I and import duty is paid by all, which I imagine is enforced.
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You said it yourself....when someone isn't VAT registered, goods are often (ahem, nearly always?) under declared for port clearance. therefore in this instance they pay a pittance in VAT (compared to what they'd have to pay if playing by the rules & having to be registered for VAT & collect VAT for HMRC).
re non VAT registered UK sellers doing the same thing (underdeclaring) ...I'm sure they do, but there's one BIG difference.....an UK seller is always at risk of a HMRC inspector tapping on his door & looking at his bank details (amount paid for the shipment) vs. amount declared when the shipment arrived at the port of entry.
I doubt there's much risk of a UK VAT inspector travelling to Beijing to do the same thing.
This really has to be the lowest hanging of fruit from the Treasury's perspective...just make Ebay/amazon deduct the VAT from sellers sales at source...... a *massive* win for UK coffers & a massive win for UK based online businesses
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Times are changing, we never had on-line retail before so the law must adapt to it. I don't really give a stuff if eBay or Amazon don't want to be involved, only by making them legally liable will they actually do anything.
The net effect is not the same, there is a much greater advantage when you don't pay VAT on the selling price, basic accounting. Its about percentages, not the actual VAT amount.
Of course if everyone paid it would be the best scenario but as globby referred to in the post above Chinese sellers provide very little benefit to UK economy, they suck money out of the country.
The net effect is not the same, there is a much greater advantage when you don't pay VAT on the selling price, basic accounting. Its about percentages, not the actual VAT amount.
Of course if everyone paid it would be the best scenario but as globby referred to in the post above Chinese sellers provide very little benefit to UK economy, they suck money out of the country.
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Imports for all sellers is an even playing field.
If you are importing from China, for instance you pay the same rate as the Chinese importer.
Under deceleration is not solely the problem of Chinese sellers. I imagine there is much much more under declaration, in value terms, by UK businesses.
However, this is where the main problem exists.
Chinese sellers cannot claim this back if they are not VAT registered, where as a UK business can.
Underdeclaration is a problem for all importers, not solely Chinese.
There are far more UK importers under declaring prices that make Chinese importers pail into insignificance when calculating the total values.
Not sure I agree with your presumption that eBay et al turn a blind eye. If something can be enforced it has to be in conjunction with HMRC, it cannot be done alone.
As mentioned before if a non VAT registered company, whether UK, Chinese or any other country does not charge VAT, the Net affect is the same as they cannot claim back the import VAT paid at point if entry, where a registered VAT business can.
The only difference is the tax due on the profit element and given the low profit this will not be a high figure.
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HMRC are adapting new rules and regulations for oversees sellers who have their goods in the UK.
The fact that non VAT registered businesses will pay 2 lots of VAT, one at import stage and one at selling stage should address this issue.
All UK VAT registered businesses will be able to claim back the VAT paid on imports or goods bought locally, which should give them an advantage.
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Calculating the import value and import duty tariff is for HMRC to enforce and they do spot checks for all imports, and may well target Chinese sellers for this issue. HMRC can and often do adjust the value and import duty at point of entry.
Your assertion that UK businesses have an added threat of a knock on the door, does not affect one iota of what VAT is paid. The threat is not a reason to do something illegal.
International trade is often reciprocal and any penalties solely targeting Chinese sellers may well have the similar stances employed by China customs for UK imports into China.
It's always a 2 way street and unfortunately the person feeling aggrieved will use the points to suit their argument, rather than look at the bilateral trade between 2 countries. (Not necessarily just UK and China, this can affect many different countries trading and importing procedures)
Online selling has boomed during the last few years and will continue to grow and I am sure new rules and regulations will come into force taking into account global trading with different trading countries.
As mentioned previously, ALL taxes should be paid. If there is a "loophole" that can be fixed, then it's only for HMRC to do this and be able to enforce it in a cost effective way. It's not for eBay, Amazon, or any other online selling platforms to fix this problem.
the main thrust of this thread was how UK sellers can compete with Chinese sellers on platforms like eBay and Amazon.
The sad truth is that they will find it increasingly more difficult as more and more Chinese suppliers start trading on these platforms.
The analogy is similar to that of B&M stores and online sales. The B&M stores must provide something that online sellers cannot, service and after sales service being the obvious choices.
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ironically, I've just received this from Amazon...
"Multi-Country Inventory
FBA fulfilment fees provided you are in stock at the fulfilment centre in the marketplace where the order is placed.
If you are out of stock in your MCI-eligible fulfilment centre, Amazon will dispatch orders from one of the in-stock fulfilment centres.
If you have listings in marketplaces in countries where you do not hold local inventory, we will remotely fulfill orders from your shared inventory pool. For example, if you list in the marketplace in France, but only have inventory in fulfilment centres in the UK and Germany, we will dispatch from your stock in either the UK or Germany. In this case, you would be charged an EFN fee based on where we fulfilled the order from for the customer in France.
To avoid unplanned EFN fees, we recommend you maintain your inventory levels in each country and replenish often. To view stock levels on a per-country basis, use the Daily Inventory History report."
....in other words, Amazon are actively enouraging me to fulfill out of Amazon.de warehouses to Germany (vs.fulfilling out of Amazon.co.uk warehouses to Germany).
there's not one tiny mention of VAT implications in their tantalising email to sellers, but I know for a fact that once you fulfill out of the Amazon.de fulfilment centres, you are no longer a distance seller & must pay the german authorities VAT from day 1 (as opposed to paying HMRC the VAT aspect on a sale to germany).
Amazon are causing chaos wrt sales tax & borders!! I'd imagine that the german VAT department might want their VAT, but Amazon's stance seems to be "Just send your stuff all over the place to our European warehouses & carry on!"
"Multi-Country Inventory
FBA fulfilment fees provided you are in stock at the fulfilment centre in the marketplace where the order is placed.
If you are out of stock in your MCI-eligible fulfilment centre, Amazon will dispatch orders from one of the in-stock fulfilment centres.
If you have listings in marketplaces in countries where you do not hold local inventory, we will remotely fulfill orders from your shared inventory pool. For example, if you list in the marketplace in France, but only have inventory in fulfilment centres in the UK and Germany, we will dispatch from your stock in either the UK or Germany. In this case, you would be charged an EFN fee based on where we fulfilled the order from for the customer in France.
To avoid unplanned EFN fees, we recommend you maintain your inventory levels in each country and replenish often. To view stock levels on a per-country basis, use the Daily Inventory History report."
....in other words, Amazon are actively enouraging me to fulfill out of Amazon.de warehouses to Germany (vs.fulfilling out of Amazon.co.uk warehouses to Germany).
there's not one tiny mention of VAT implications in their tantalising email to sellers, but I know for a fact that once you fulfill out of the Amazon.de fulfilment centres, you are no longer a distance seller & must pay the german authorities VAT from day 1 (as opposed to paying HMRC the VAT aspect on a sale to germany).
Amazon are causing chaos wrt sales tax & borders!! I'd imagine that the german VAT department might want their VAT, but Amazon's stance seems to be "Just send your stuff all over the place to our European warehouses & carry on!"
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Surely you can reclaim any VAT paid to a European country in your quarterly returns.
VAT related to global and EU sales are very confusing to the most educated mind and perhaps needs to be simplified.
Every country, even in the EU wants their VAT paid when goods are sold in their country from online sellers.
VAT related to global and EU sales are very confusing to the most educated mind and perhaps needs to be simplified.
Every country, even in the EU wants their VAT paid when goods are sold in their country from online sellers.
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I think you've missed the cut & thrust of my point...Amazon are 'selling' the tantalising concept of increasing sales to me (a UK based seller) by fulfilling out of Germany (vs fulfilling out of the UK), but haven't put one disclaimer such as "Warning: fulfilling out of Germany will likely impact your sales exposure, if you are unsure of the impact, please speak to your professional tax adviser"
Now multiply that by a large factor (same Amazon email to sellers in Asia, or sellers in germany telling them to fulfill out of the UK")...it's akin to a crystal meth dealer just wanting to move more meth without giving a stuff about the consequences of his actions!
A marketplace as huge as Amazon & Ebay should have some obligations (in much the same way as a bank has to carry out anti money laundering procedures, the likes of Amazon should have rules in place to ensure that an overseas seller has a VAT number...else don't enable his selling rights)
Now multiply that by a large factor (same Amazon email to sellers in Asia, or sellers in germany telling them to fulfill out of the UK")...it's akin to a crystal meth dealer just wanting to move more meth without giving a stuff about the consequences of his actions!
A marketplace as huge as Amazon & Ebay should have some obligations (in much the same way as a bank has to carry out anti money laundering procedures, the likes of Amazon should have rules in place to ensure that an overseas seller has a VAT number...else don't enable his selling rights)
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I haven't missed your point at all.
I think the analogy with meth dealing is not the same, nor money laundering issues, however I take on board you feel this is wrong from Amazons point of view.
Have you written to them to voice your disappointment in them not requesting people to speak to their tax advisors?
Laws are in place from related governments in each country, it is not for Amazon, nor eBay or any other global platforms to work on behalf of HMRC or any other government.
Please don't take me the wrong way, I empathise with people struggling in business, but sometimes you just have to get on with it and concentrate on your own business, rather than looking at what other businesses may or may not be doing wrong and blaming them for a downturn in business.
Business is competitive at the best of times, when trade is slow, it is doubly hard.
I think the analogy with meth dealing is not the same, nor money laundering issues, however I take on board you feel this is wrong from Amazons point of view.
Have you written to them to voice your disappointment in them not requesting people to speak to their tax advisors?
Laws are in place from related governments in each country, it is not for Amazon, nor eBay or any other global platforms to work on behalf of HMRC or any other government.
Please don't take me the wrong way, I empathise with people struggling in business, but sometimes you just have to get on with it and concentrate on your own business, rather than looking at what other businesses may or may not be doing wrong and blaming them for a downturn in business.
Business is competitive at the best of times, when trade is slow, it is doubly hard.
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How am I deflecting the argument?
I am merely pointing out that there are rules and regulations in place and it's for HMRC to enforce these rules, not eBay or Amazon or any other global selling platform.
With VAT you are missing the point. Any person bringing goods into the UK has to pay VAT and Import Duty.
ONLY VAT registered businesses can claim this back.
so, in effect VAT registered businesses, have an advantage by being able to claim this element back.
When it comes to selling the product, any person selling from outside of the EU, MUST NOT charge VAT. this is perfectly within HMRC guidelines.
This is for HMRC to rectify, not eBay or Amazon.
This is not fraud on the part of sellers outside of the EU.
Distance selling only applies to people and businesses selling within the EU.
We supply to many eBay and Amazon UK sellers, so can understand the frustration, but it's for HMRC to resolve any issues related to global online sales. They have to make sure they coordinate and comply with international guidelines. It cannot be confined to a specific country.
Actually it's probably a global issue as I imagine every seller in a particular country may have a grievance against another seller not required to register for VAT in their country.
Each country has different rules and regulations regarding online sales and perhaps this should be standardised. (Wishful thinking, probably)
Please don't think I am not on your side, I am!
I am from the UK, born and bred and most of my customers are in the UK.
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The trouble is that many of these Chinese sellers also use multiple selling account on both eBay and amazon, so it will still be easy for them to be below any VAT limits imposed. They will just create a new sellers account and away they go again.
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I know one "private" UK seller who undercuts me by buying goods and underdeclaring the VAT on importation. As he's a private individual making some money on the side, there little to nothing I can do about it, even though he tries to poach my customers. I doubt he declares profits on his tax return.
He's not Chinese.
He's not Chinese.
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Hi Steve, yes, they can create many accounts but it won't help in all instances:
- for non-established taxable persons (NETPs), that's the non-EU sellers like the Chinese, who use UK fulfilment centres, they are supposed to pay VAT straight away, there is no threshold. Ebay and Amazon could automatically deduct VAT at source and pay to HMRC. Having different accounts would not help them. They would then have two choices, pay the VAT, or take their goods outside the EU, either option makes it easier for UK retailers to compete with them
- for EU based sellers committing VAT fraud, yes using different accounts might help them avoid paying VAT, but it makes life more difficult for them, and as pish-pash mentioned before, they risk getting caught, fined and even jail time.
I'm sure a good team of tax & IT experts could come up with some pretty good ways to combat on-line retail VAT fraud, I just don't understand why the government don't do it. A dedicated HMRC team set-up to monitor this would easily be self funding, even profit making.
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There is far more money being evaded by UK importers who sell on eBay and Amazon, than non UK sellers who are selling within the UK.
it's never a good idea to tarnish one group with the same brush.
The fact that Chinese sellers are at a huge advantage being able to source directly, as well as the Chinese mentality of working on lower profits than their UK counterparts, just adds to the growing problem facing UK and global sellers.
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