Charity Shops

[Banned]

because you are making 99.9% of charities that meet your requirements anyway and more, jump through lots of hoops to catch out 0.01% that don't.

Quite why you think people who work for charities should not be paid simply does not make sense. They use volunteers as much as possible. But very few charities can operate without labour and without for example professional services like accountants who can figure out if the met this target. Why should an accountant give his services for free. Do you? Of course some will but with deadlines etc charities have to pay for services and staff just like any other organisation.

Actually I'm wrong, they would need to give 75% of the POR to charity rather than turnover, thus leaving 25% of POR which is more than ample to pay accounts, staff etc. I manage it on a lot less.

 

[mhall]

So, charities are all good and we must just allow them everything purely because someone says they are a charity ?

The Charity Comission is pretty much useless and only serves to check that the paperwork is in place and the boxes are ticked. A charity with £10 million in donations is still acting perfectly legally if it uses just £1 to "further it's cause"

Again (and again ad infinitum), there are some brilliant charities out there that I don't begrudge a penny to, but then there are charities that are just money making for it's officers -and they hide behind complex tax avoidance measures.

But again, you are being sidetracked. No one has yet convinced me that Charity shops should get Rates relief when they are selling exactly the same stuff as other Retailers. To answer with "because they are a charity" is simply closing your mind to the reality. You can huff and puff all day long about charities being fine organisations and volunteers being wonderful people, I accept most of that, it does not affect the argument one little bit.

 

[MarkMandel]

when the shoe is on the other foot?

As you are all for "fair" competition and a "level playing field" I assume we should remove this relief for small retailers and they should pay thier bills on time like everyone else? After all why should one section of retail get something others are not, as you say yourself.
Small retailers to benefit from surprise business rates relief holiday extension

 

[mhall]

when the shoe is on the other foot?

As you are all for "fair" competition and a "level playing field" I assume we should remove this relief for small retailers and they should pay thier bills on time like everyone else? After all why should one section of retail get something others are not, as you say yourself.
Small retailers to benefit from surprise business rates relief holiday extension

Couldn't agree more - Particulalry as I don't qualify - and I have always paid my bills within 30 days, usually within 48 hours. My Dad taught me long ago to look after my suppliers as much as I do my customers as one day I may need a favour and some extended credit and if they trusted me they would do it. On the couple of ocassions when cash flow has been tight it has served me well.

 

[Banned]

when the shoe is on the other foot?

As you are all for "fair" competition and a "level playing field" I assume we should remove this relief for small retailers and they should pay thier bills on time like everyone else? After all why should one section of retail get something others are not, as you say yourself.
Small retailers to benefit from surprise business rates relief holiday extension

Wish I got that relief as well, it applies to just a minority of shops. When they say small they mean really small, just have a look at rateable values and see how many shops you can find that qualify.

Why do you presume we are not paying our bills on time, very strange comment.

 

[mhall]

Why do you presume we are not paying our bills on time, very strange comment.

Because as a "consultant" he knows that sort of thing

Sorry, I shouldn't bait

 

[MarkMandel]

I was just pointing out that their isn't a "level playing field" between retailers, (and never will be) even excluding charity shops, small ones get rates relief (to pay rates later than everyone else), big ones are paying corporation tax in Ireland at 12%. So Charity shops may say if we lose our tax benefits, other retailers needs to lose theirs.

 

[mhall]

I was just pointing out that their isn't a "level playing field" between retailers, (and never will be) even excluding charity shops, small ones get rates relief (to pay rates later than everyone else), big ones are paying corporation tax in Ireland at 12%. So Charity shops may say if we lose our tax benefits, other retailers needs to lose theirs.

and I'm sorry to keep going on but if smaller shops get the relief, that is fine- it is fair- they are smaller, their rateable value is less, they need the support and it has been decreed they should get it.

Charity shops are in prime spots, the rateable value is high. Why should I have to pay £850 a month in rates when the charity shop over the road, which is bigger than me, and according to the VOA website has a rateable value 12% higher than me, pay 80% less than me? If they used that saving to benefit the charity work (as opposed to the charity staff), I wouldn't mind so much but when I see teams of shopfitters and equipment being purchased that is way out of anything I could even begin to dream about affording, it niggles (and I know that opens me up to all sorts of attack, but I won't rise to any of it as I support my own charities as, I am sure, we all do)

As you pointed out, they get many concessions already in terms of corporation tax and VAT relief, I simply don't belief this concession should extend to Rates Relief - unless of course, they find premises which fall under the 12k threshold, in which case they would qualify like everyone else - a fair approach

 

[MarkMandel]

Charities do share information in a Charity Shop Annual report brought together by an indepenent accounting firm.


You can see the 2010 summary figures here. For UK shops they make profit which they contribute to charity an average profit of £300-£600 per week. Most charities have a range of shops from high street to secondary and third level locations so not all shops will make the average. Thats with maybe one paid member of staff.

At these profits you can see that rates would make many of the shops unviable.

And thats half the picture... lots of the £5.7m Bernardo's raised saves government spending taxes on children services. Plus saving on recycle etc etc.

Quote:

What shops consider their biggest risks:
1. Shortage of donated stock 77%
2. Poor quality of donated stock 75%
3. Competition for donated stock from commercial collectors 71%
4. Shortage of volunteers 70%​

5. Health and safety of staff 61%

endquote

Bought in goods isn't even mentioned, I think you are really overestimating the impact that it has. It gives charity shops a bit of a blip in Nov/Dec, for the rest of the time the sales are hardly anything and they are not really competing with any other retailer, just selling second hand goods.

 

[Pap_sak]

Interesting thread! Had to look up what "chuggers" meant - lol.

I think as long as charity shops stick to secondhand/donated stuff there would not be a problem with their reduction in rates.

I was wondering if their is a "charitable retail forum" out there complaining about ebay taking all the "good" secondhand stuff..

 

[mhall]

I'm not interested in the "impact", I am interested in the morals and ethics. If they are worried about shortage of donated stock, that is because a lot of people have stopped donating - and why would that be? They are either a) not getting rid, b) selling it themselves as they are broke, c) decided not to donate to then for whatever rerason but POSSIBLY because they are not impressed with all the free loaders in the charity taking advantage of the volunteers and the cause or POSSIBLY because they have found a worthier cause they prefer to support.

Personally, with the exception of Cancer, National Charities don't get a penny from me, the local hospice will always win over the the corporate charities

 

[MarkMandel]

Well at least you acknowledge there would be an impact.

I think you misunderstand the donated stock issue. The problem for charity shops is that literally get their stock in black bags. Even if they know what would sell they cannot ask or order exact items. Also people tend to donate out of season, women may clear out their wardrobe in spring but that will be winter clothes, when the shops customers want to buy spring clothes. As previously pointed out people often put lots of useless items in donations.

As you percieve charity shops as a problem, then its one that is getting "worse" as the sector is growing not retracting. Get used to it would be my advice.

Summary of 2011 Survey of Charity Shops. Note this also isn't every charity.

Quote
The number of net new shops opened last year was 140, up from 109 the previous year, compared to just 13 in 2008 and 20 in 2007.

The supply of volunteers has never been better. The average number of volunteers has trended upwards over the last few years and now exceeds 20 per shop, having risen from 19.6 to 20.9 over the last year.

Average annual rent per shop, which has risen by 2-3 per cent in each of the last three years, has plateaued this year, rising by just 0.5 per cent from £19,726 to £19,826.
Endquote

Doesn't quite back up your "free loaders in the charity taking advantage of the volunteers" argument or that they cannot get stock, clearly they wouldnt open new shops if thats the case, but hey don't let any facts get in way of your opinon. Eight charity shops on your high street, with 20 volunteers each, thats 160 people in your community who don't agree with you and around 160,000 nationwide. People know when they are being taken advantage of.
But then again anythings possible.

 

[mhall]

er Mark, it was you that posted that 75% of them were worried about not getting enough donated stock, not me.

"There are none so blind as those who will not see"

Fill the streets with charity shops, I really don't mind - as long as they pay their way like the rest of us - that is all I am saying. If they can fulfill the need of the customer, fair play to them, but don't whinge that "paying full rates would make the shops unviable", - that is unfair on the rest of us and is my ONLY argument against them.

 

[mhall]

I could also start a whole new thread about volunteers but I really don't want this thread to move away from the topic of Rates.

 

Well I think charity shops do a great service to the community.

I allowing the less well off to purchase some nice clothe.e.t.c.

2 providing money for various needy members of society and other important areas.

In a supposed caring sharing society it would seem right that these organisations get all the help they can.

Never heard anyone else but shopkeepers complain about any rate rebates they may get.

So it would seem the general public supports them?

Earl

 

[Nuno]

Hmmm..

So Charity shops employ people without pay?

And Charity shops are a source of cheap clothes for poor people?

And Charity shops get lower rates and levels of tax?

Sounds like they are a branch of government to me. Hiding unemployment by giving non jobs, clothing the needy in cast offs, escaping audit and tax...

Oh wait. Oxfam gets 40% of it's income from Government, and I imagine the other big ones are the same-ish. They are a branch of government.

Business rates for kosher traders> Central Government>Charities> Charity shops>low rates>increased Business rates for kosher traders>Central Government>>>>>

But Central Govt plays the "Is for the chilrun" emotional card, gives highly paid jobs to Chums in Charge of Charities, and like mugs, (nice, generous mugs), we fall for it.

(For a full version of this report send £99.97 to Save the Nunofam in Action, c/o HMP Isle of Wight)

 

Hmmm..

So Charity shops employ people without pay?

And Charity shops are a source of cheap clothes for poor people?

And Charity shops get lower rates and levels of tax?

Sounds like they are a branch of government to me. Hiding unemployment by giving non jobs, clothing the needy in cast offs, escaping audit and tax...

Oh wait. Oxfam gets 40% of it's income from Government, and I imagine the other big ones are the same-ish. They are a branch of government.

Business rates for kosher traders> Central Government>Charities> Charity shops>low rates>increased Business rates for kosher traders>Central Government>>>>>

But Central Govt plays the "Is for the chilrun" emotional card, gives highly paid jobs to Chums in Charge of Charities, and like mugs, (nice, generous mugs), we fall for it.

(For a full version of this report send £99.97 to Save the Nunofam in Action, c/o HMP Isle of Wight)

So with all its faults what is your alternative to helping the less well off?

Earl

 

[josor]

So with all its faults what is your alternative to helping the less well off?

Earl

workhouses, worked in the Victorian ages

 

[Nuno]

workhouses, worked in the Victorian ages

Build the empire again. Send the shirkers off to hunt and gather.
Pah.

 

Build the empire again. Send the shirkers off to hunt and gather.
Pah.

What and leave the country empty?:|

Earl

 

[MarkMandel]

Hmmm..

So Charity shops employ people without pay?

And Charity shops are a source of cheap clothes for poor people?

And Charity shops get lower rates and levels of tax?

Sounds like they are a branch of government to me. Hiding unemployment by giving non jobs, clothing the needy in cast offs, escaping audit and tax...

Oh wait. Oxfam gets 40% of it's income from Government, and I imagine the other big ones are the same-ish. They are a branch of government.

Business rates for kosher traders> Central Government>Charities> Charity shops>low rates>increased Business rates for kosher traders>Central Government>>>>>

But Central Govt plays the "Is for the chilrun" emotional card, gives highly paid jobs to Chums in Charge of Charities, and like mugs, (nice, generous mugs), we fall for it.

(For a full version of this report send £99.97 to Save the Nunofam in Action, c/o HMP Isle of Wight)

Most volunteers are either retired or work full or part-time elsewhere. Charity shops don't hide unemployment.

Some people actually like helping others for no reward.

 

[MarkMandel]

er Mark, it was you that posted that 75% of them were worried about not getting enough donated stock, not me.

"There are none so blind as those who will not see"

Fill the streets with charity shops, I really don't mind - as long as they pay their way like the rest of us - that is all I am saying. If they can fulfill the need of the customer, fair play to them, but don't whinge that "paying full rates would make the shops unviable", - that is unfair on the rest of us and is my ONLY argument against them.

Outside retail I cannot see any sentiment for this argument, its not a policy of any party I can see so I think you are on a loser. Most charities lobby on policy like other organisations and am sure would put up a good resistence like they recently did with Mary Portas saying they should be limited numbers. She did a review for government but there has been no change of policy on this. Anyone outside of retail people will just see it as less of their money going to the cause that they have chosen to support.

 

[andygambles]

To clarify Business Rates go to central government. They do not go to local councils.

Many councils make money from parking charges. Our local council takes near £5m a year from parking. Which Si another thing killing the high street in smaller towns.

 

[Steve Sellers]

Most volunteers are either retired or work full or part-time elsewhere. Charity shops don't hide unemployment.

Some people actually like helping others for no reward.

Some also take community service chaps, and those on "work or lose your benefits" type schemes.

 

[MarkMandel]

yeah, there are good examples out there though like Swindon.

All car parks council owned - no NCP or anyone else.

Parking charges set for benefit of both shoppers and shops around £1 per hour - at Christmas or sale time usually do a promotion of £2 all day.

plus no fixed speed cameras!

 

[mhall]

quote=MarkMandel;1843700]Outside retail I cannot see any sentiment for this argument, its not a policy of any party I can see so I think you are on a loser. Most charities lobby on policy like other organisations and am sure would put up a good resistence like they recently did with Mary Portas saying they should be limited numbers. She did a review for government but there has been no change of policy on this. Anyone outside of retail people will just see it as less of their money going to the cause that they have chosen to support.[/quote]

Oh I know I'm on a loser Mark. As our politicians have no ethics or morals I have no doubt they would never do the right thing.

If a politician has to save £50 million and has a choice of two actions - close a hospital or cancel an order for a tank - he will always close the hospital. He knows there will be an outcry and a group of people will form an appeal and raise the money to keep the hospital open. The politician gets his tank, keeps the hospital and still saves his £50 million - and we pay another £50m in taxes, in the form of donations.

 

[redimps0]

Back to charity shops!!

I am looking to open a second hand shop!!!! What happened to them?

Yes pay staff, yes make a profit.

Pay people for donations of stuff ! (not all donations are filthy etc some are more valuable than you think too)

Charge people to sell their goods from my shop. (they make a profit too)

Take a comission from sales.

But employ people and sell cheap stuff and give people a chance to make money on thier stuff.

Isnt that what trade is about, not charity shops supported by the government. shops run by people for people, we all need help to pay our bills and to stimulate the economy .....

And what I cant sell donate to charity.

One charity shop near me has a sign in it saying "Please No Donations From Left over Car Boot Sales"
This made me mad and so I came up with this idea. Its like the high street gone backwards at the moment.

Just hope I can afford the full rates.

 

[mhall]

Seems to be a glut of people opening "clothes for cash" units in the secondary areas