Card Payments Provider Advice

[GFI]

Hi all,

Can any of the guys who deal with card processing PM me to arrange a chat about the above.

I started with Square - great bit of kit and simple set up. But 1.75% stings! 2.5% for customer not present stings even more and I do 70% of my transactions that way.

Had a really competitive quote from First Data but they wouldn’t take us on as too new.

Managed to get a merchant account with First Payment Solutions. Terminal (Pax) arrived on Tuesday just gone - I am cancelling on Monday before I am stuck with them for 4 years. Both transactions I tried since it arrived (£1325 & £1800) failed. And there support has been useless.

A payment gateway on my phone would prob do the job? If I can do transactions with customers and when at home?

Info:
Monthly sales of about £20k for now, year 2 will be nearer £40k pcm.
Average transaction £1500
70% of that card.
70% of card is over the phone.
First payment is a 50% deposit with the balance taken 8 weeks later.
Company formed in April 19.
4 Directors, only 1 actively involved day to day (me).
I don’t need same day/next day settlement. But happy to get it

If you need more info we can sort that when we talk ?

PM me! : )

 

[Oryza]

What sort of quote did you get with First Data just out of interest?

We use Square and to be honest I'm now working their fees into prices as it's so simple, fast, no contract, no monthly charge, set-up fee, no extra hidden charges when companies like first data have a lot of hidden charges.

 

[GFI]

What sort of quote did you get with First Data just out of interest?

We use Square and to be honest I'm now working their fees into prices as it's so simple, fast, no contract, no monthly charge, set-up fee, no extra hidden charges when companies like first data have a lot of hidden charges.

Credit Cards 0.62%
Debit Cards 0.30%
AMEX 1.80% (I rarely accept AMEX, unless the customer really wants to use it for their Airmiles grr)
Customer Not Present NO ADDITIONAL FEE

£19.99 pcm for machine
£4.99 pcm for PCI DSS

With the amounts I take on card it worked out to a massive saving!!

The below doesn’t include any use of Debit cards with FD:

70% of £20k is £16,600

SQUARE
70% @2.50% 290 pcm (CNP)
30% @1.75% £87 pcm (Chip and Pin)
Total £377 pcm


FIRST DATA
@0.62% £103 + £25 = £128 pcm


The FD guy I went through was great Shane.campbellATfirstdatadotcom

Hope that helps clarify why I am looking for another solution : ) (I am still a big fan of Square for their simplicity, really needed them for my first 2 months of trading!!)

Cheers, P.

 

[GFI]

Anyone with any knowledge of this able to assist?

Had the machine 6 days and First Payment say I can’t cancel with out cancellation fees??

Does distance selling not apply? They say it doesn’t!!

Grrr

 

[Nochexman]

Had the machine 6 days and First Payment say I can’t cancel with out cancellation fees??

Does distance selling not apply? They say it doesn’t!!

Grrr

What does your contract with them say?

 

[GFI]

Hi Peter,

The contract very much supports them as the provider verses me the user!

I have asked them to look through the call logs and recordings and to waive the fee on this occasion.

Even if I have to pay the fee I will as I do not want to be with them for 4 years.

Get in touch if you have options that might work : )

 

[TotalWebSolutions]

That's interesting that First Data wouldn't take you on for being 'too new'. We set up lots of start-ups with them without any issue.

In terms of cancelling down with your existing provider, does the contract not include any 'cooling off' period? DSR (now Consumer Contracts Regulations) doesn't apply for B2B contracts.

 

[GFI]

It also could be to do with the deposit, 8 weeks then balance?

Get in touch for my details - maybe I can put some business your way

 

[GFI]

Wow!!

From First Payment Merchant Services:

Please see below all the costs involved to cancel your Service Agreement and close your Merchant Account. I can confirm that you have 48 payments left.


Early Termination Fee of £1641.05, which will need to be paid to Paytek on 0203 176 3200.


Minimum Monthly Charge of £960.00, which is a one off payment and will need to be paid to First Payments on 01276 605 690.

To cancel your Barclays account, please call them directly on 0844 811 6666 Opt 2 to close your account as we are unable to do this on your behalf.

£2,600.00 TOTAL!!!!!

Cancellation requested 6 days after receiving the terminal.

No card payments worked when with a customer, either face to face or over the phone. (All my test transactions worked??).

2+ hours spent on the phone with support, 13 calls over 5 days - not one department could solve the problem.

Does fair and reasonable apply in business contract law??

If I let them take me to court would a judge see this as reasonable?

I have a call log. I have requested recordings/transcripts of all calls. I have proof of failed card payments.

I can get customer witness statements...

Absolutely gobsmacked

 

[GFI]

The T's and C's for any who want to really delve

The 2. ones are about the services they agree to provide. They failed to do that. Does that give me a fair and reasonable exit??

Definitions
These words have the following meanings:
"Acquirer" means the financial institution to which your Payment Transactions and Refund instructions
are routed for authorisation and settlement;
"Agreement" means these Terms and Conditions (including any front sheet to which they are attached
or with which they are provided) effective from the date of the agreement;
"Business Day" means Monday to Friday excluding English public and bank holidays
"Card" means a current valid, credit, debit or charge card that we may accept for processing under
the terms of this Agreement;
"Cardholder" means the individual holder of a Card;
"Charges" means any and all of the charges set out in the sections entitled 'Initial Charges and Regular
Charges' as the case may be and shown on the front sheet which are payable throughout the Minimum
Term and thereafter;
"Consumables" means batteries, paper rolls, printer ink or cartridges, all power and other accessories
required or desired for operation of the Payment Terminal;
"Minimum Term" means the Minimum Term as shown on the front sheet of this Agreement;
"Network" is the PSTN, Broadband or mobile telephone network upon which the Payment Terminal will operate;
"Payment Terminal" means the Payment Terminal(s) described on the front sheet, provided to you for
the purpose of processing Payment Transactions hereunder and subject to the terms of this Agreement
including (inter alia) those set out in Clause 4 below;
"Payment Transaction" means a Card transaction processed with the intention of a Cardholder
incurring a liability resulting in monies being received from the Card issuer to your Acquirer and credited
to your bank account;
"Personal Information" means information (in any reproducible format) which relates to a Cardholder
or other identifiable individual, whether supplied by you for processing by us or whether generated by
us in the course of performing our obligations. This information may include some or all of the following
information: Cardholder name and all data encoded on a Cardholder's Card;
"Refund" means a Card transaction which has been processed with the intention of monies being
remitted to the Cardholder's Card account;
"Services" means each of the services selected on the front sheet and more particularly described
below;
"SIM card" means the card used with a Payment Terminal which uses a Network to provide the
Services.
“Terminal Management System” means the terminal estate management system that allows for the
configuration of terminals parameters, BINS, card processing rules and remote software downloads.
1. Agreement
1.1. We agree to provide you with the Payment Terminal and to provide the Services set out on the
front sheet for the Minimum Term and thereafter until terminated in accordance with Clause 6.
The Payment Terminal is supplied to you for the purpose of effecting Payment Transactions or
Refunds.
1.2. You agree to pay the Charges set out on the front sheet promptly for the duration of the Minimum
Term and you are deemed to accept these terms conditions when you sign this Agreement. You
will pay us VAT on any sums due under this Agreement at the prevailing rate from time to time.
1.3. You will pay the Charges applicable for each respective period during the Minimum Term
whether or not you use the Payment Terminal or Services. After the end of the Minimum Term,
the Services shall continue, provided you continue to pay the Charges, unless and until
terminated in accordance with Clause 6.
1.4. You must not record or pass to any third party any Personal Information other than as permitted
by the terms of this Agreement;
1.5. You must pay all Charges by direct debit on the due date and prompt payment is an essential
condition of this Agreement. If Charges or other sums are not paid when due, we can suspend
or terminate some or all of our Services and charge you interest on what you owe at 4% per
annum above the base rate of The Royal Bank of Scotland from time to time from the due date
the relevant amount fell due until you pay. You agree that if you do not pay promptly, we can
say that you have broken this Agreement and we can terminate this Agreement immediately.
These rights are in addition to any other legal rights we may have, which we may also rely upon.
2. Services
If selected on the front sheet and subject to due payment of the relevant Charges shown on the front
sheet, we agree to provide the Services as follows:
2.1. Airtime
2.1.1. To fit a SIM card into and configure the Payment Terminal;
2.1.2. To arrange continuous connection to a suitable Network (subject to Clause 3 below);
2.1.3. Charges in respect of Airtime service may be subject to change after the first twelve months
of this Agreement, if the Network provider increases the cost to us.
2.2. Terminal & Transaction Processing Service
2.2.1. To configure the Payment Terminal with appropriate software for the processing of Payment
Transactions or Refunds by any Card capable of being accepted by you under the terms of
your agreement with an Acquirer;
2.2.2. The Terminal is programmed to download regular updates using a remote connection to our
Terminal Management System (“Remote Update”). This is to maintain the equipment
operating software up to date. Remote Updates are downloaded using your preferred network
and may incur higher charges if downloaded using an analogue / dial up connection. Charges
incurred as a result of the download of Remote Updates are your Responsibility.
2.2.3. To ensure secure routing for Card authorisations and Payment Transactions to and from your
Acquirer.
2.3. Help Desk and Support Service
2.3.1. To provide a Help Desk service on the telephone number shown on the front sheet, available
between the hours of 8.00 am and 11.00 pm Monday to Saturday and 10.00 am to 4.00 pm
on Sundays and Public Holidays as a telephone advice bureau for operational difficulties.
2.4. Guaranteed Replacement Service
2.4.1. In addition to the Help Desk service set out in 2.3, if the Payment Terminal develops a fault, we
will, unless prevented by circumstances outside our control, provide a replacement Payment
Terminal within 24 hours. You acknowledge that this target response time is our service level
goal and we do not warrant that any particular replacement shall be made within 24 hours.
2.4.2. Any replacement Payment Terminal shall be provided configured for your use and will be of a
similar or improved specification, but may be new or refurbished.
2.4.3. Our repair services under this clause 2.4 shall not extend to accidental damage to the Payment
Terminal, nor in respect of any damage caused to the Payment Terminal or any part thereof
though misuse or malicious damage, or for theft or loss of the Payment Terminal, nor to faults
in respect of batteries or battery packs, Network outages or to any third party device or
attachment that is not part of the Payment Terminal provided by us..
2.4.4. We shall be entitled to levy a charge in respect of a Payment Terminal, which upon inspection,
is not found to be faulty.
2.5. Payment Terminal
2.5.1. The Payment Terminal is provided to you without charge for the purpose of carrying out
Payment Transactions (and for no other purpose) and in consideration of your agreement to
utilise our Services for the Minimum Term.
3. Network Service Limitations
3.1. We will always try to make our Services available to you, but sometimes they may be affected
by things beyond our control, including (inter alia) the availability of the Network. We may
suspend certain services, but will endeavour to give as much notice as practical.
3.2. The Services are made available subject to:
3.2.1. any software, upgrades or other intellectual property relating to the Payment Terminal or
Services not being copied, modified or sub-licensed by you without our specific written consent;
3.2.2. their not being used for or to access anything illegal, immoral or improper;
3.2.3. their being used only with the Payment Terminal and SIM cards provided for use with the
Network (and which have not been lost or stolen) and all relevant laws and rules being followed;
3.2.4. their being used only for the purposes of processing Payment Transactions or Refunds and no
other purpose;
3.2.5. the SIM card not being used for any other purposes or otherwise modified or removed from the
Payment Terminal;
3.2.6. all reasonable instructions that we may give you being followed;
3.2.7. the Payment Terminal being in range of base stations forming part of the Network.
3.3. Your payment obligations shall not be affected by the unavailability of the Services.

 

[GFI]

4. Operational Terms
4.1. You hereby agree throughout the duration of this Agreement:
4.2. to use the Payment Terminal in accordance with any operating instructions only for the purpose
of effecting Payment Transactions or Refunds in accordance our instructions; and
4.3. to keep the Payment Terminal in good repair and condition and save as provided for herein, to
be responsible for any loss or damage to it and not to remove any identifying marks; and
4.4. to insure the Payment Terminal for loss or damage for its full replacement value or otherwise
indemnify us against the full cost of repair or replacement (other than as may be covered under
Clause 2.4); and
4.5. to keep the Payment Terminal in your own possession in the United Kingdom and not to alter,
sell, lend or otherwise deal with it nor to allow any charge or lien or similar right to be created
over it; and
4.6. to indemnify and keep us fully indemnified at all times against all losses, actions, claims,
demands, costs or expenses arising directly or indirectly from the use, possession, operation,
condition or maintenance of the Payment Terminal or your failure to carry out any obligation
under this Agreement.
5. Liability
5.1. We are only liable to you as set out in this Agreement. We have no other duty or liability to
you.
5.2. Nothing in this Agreement removes or limits our liability for death or personal injury caused by
our negligence.
5.3. Except as set out in Clause 5.2, our entire liability to you for something we or anyone who
works for us does or does not do will be limited to 125% of any monies paid by you to us under
this Agreement.
5.4. We are not liable to you in any way for any loss of income, business or profits, or for any loss
or damage occasioned by the use of the Services or any failure of the Services.
5.5. We will not be liable to you if we cannot carry out our duties or provide our services because
of something beyond our control.
6. Termination
6.1. Subject to the terms of Clause 6.3 below, either party can terminate this Agreement at any
time after expiry of the Minimum Term, by the giving of one month's notice in writing to the
other party.
6.2. We can terminate this Agreement immediately and stop providing the Services if any of the
following happens:
6.2.1. you fail to pay any Charges or other sums due under this Agreement when due or break an
important condition of this Agreement; or
6.2.2. you break any other condition of this Agreement and do not put it right within 7 days of us asking
you to; or
6.2.3. you become bankrupt or make any arrangement with your creditors or are liquidated or have an
Administrator or receiver appointed or suffer any other form of insolvency event;
6.2.4. you are unable to pay your debts as they fall due.
6.3. Upon termination of this Agreement for any reason, you must, pay us immediately:
6.3.1. any and all sums then due and owing; and
6.3.2. all Charges which would have been payable for the remainder of the Minimum Term but for the
termination less a discount of 5%.
6.4. We may at our discretion, be able to offer a reduction in the amount payable upon termination
set out in Clause 6.3 in exchange for return of the Payment Terminal and SIM card in good
condition and complete with all accessories, power leads, batteries, chargers and handbooks.
You should contact us at the address given on the front sheet to make arrangements for redelivery
and valuation of the Payment Terminal for this purpose.
7. General and Assignment
7.1. If you are more than one person, each person shall be jointly and severally liable under this
Agreement.
7.2. You may not transfer your account or any of your rights and responsibilities under this
Agreement.
7.3. We may assign or transfer our rights under this Agreement to another party without your
consent to a third party ("Assignee"). If we assign or transfer all or any our rights under this
Agreement you will pay all Charges relating to the Airtime Service to the Assignee without
deduction, set-off or counterclaim irrespective of whether or not you are using the Payment
Terminal for any reason whatsoever. The Assignee will have no obligations to you under this
Agreement whether in relation to the Payment Terminal and/or the Services described in
clauses 2.2 to 2.4 inclusive. We will, however, continue to remain liable to you for the
performance of such Services and/or the provision of the Payment Terminal.
7.4. You are responsible for providing all Consumables necessary for the operation of the Payment
Terminal or the Services provided hereunder.
7.5. You must advise us in writing about any change in the address supplied to us.
7.6. Any concession or extra time that we allow you only applies to the specific circumstances in
which we give it. It does not affect our rights under this Agreement in any other way.
7.7. English law will apply to this Agreement and any disputes will be settled in the courts of
England.
7.8. This Agreement does not confer any benefit on any third party under The Contracts (Rights of
Third Parties) Act 1999.
7.9. Failure by a party to enforce rights under this Agreement shall not prevent that party from
taking further action.
7.10. This Agreement supersedes all prior arrangements, understandings and agreements between
the parties relating to the provision of the Services and sets out the entire agreement between
the parties. Neither Party has relied on any representation arrangement understanding or
agreement (whether written or oral) not expressly set out in this Agreement.
7.11 This Agreement may be signed by you and by us by way of electronic signature, as defined
in section 7(2) of the Electronic Communications Act 2000.

END

 

[DavidWH]

The 2. ones are about the services they agree to provide. They failed to do that. Does that give me a fair and reasonable exit??

3.1. We will always try to make our Services available to you, but sometimes they may be affected by things beyond our control, including (inter alia) the availability of the Network. We may suspend certain services, but will endeavour to give as much notice as practical.

Prove the terminal not working was within their control.

3.3. Your payment obligations shall not be affected by the unavailability of the Services.

You still need pay, even if they dont provide the service

7.1. If you are more than one person, each person shall be jointly and severally liable under this
Agreement.

Could this constitute a pg?

Like many people who visit this forum, you have learnt a valuable and expensive lesson, to read the small print before signing.

 

[GFI]

Prove the terminal not working was within their control.



You still need pay, even if they dont provide the service



Could this constitute a pg?

Like many people who visit this forum, you have learnt a valuable and expensive lesson, to read the small print before signing.

Hi David,

Thanks for your reply : )

What is a pg?

I did read the "small print" - it was a one pager set over 2 columns - and, to be fair, it seemed reasonable as far as a basic supply of services agreement contract.

I am not a seasoned pro, however I have a reasonable understanding of these things.

The first point on any contract is that it is a 2 way agreement? Or is it not??...

...services offered and delivered = payment for said services?

I can prove the terminal did not work, and I can prove that the contract stated service levels were not delivered.

The main question was - is "fair and reasonable" applied by the courts when it comes to business to business contracts in UK law?

The numbers they are suggesting are quite frankly ludicrous!

 

[DavidWH]

PG = Personal Guarantee... probably a bit weak, if it is meant to be one, but if you're a Ltd company you may find yourself personally liable.

They can claim the terminal didn't work, for any reason... aliens hacked their network, anything that is out of their control, you try and prove otherwise.

Regardless of whether or not you received the service, you are liable to pay.

The ludicrous numbers, are what are detailed here:

6.3. Upon termination of this Agreement for any reason, you must, pay us immediately:
6.3.1. any and all sums then due and owing; and
6.3.2. all Charges which would have been payable for the remainder of the Minimum Term but for the termination less a discount of 5%.
6.4. We may at our discretion, be able to offer a reduction in the amount payable upon termination set out in Clause 6.3 in exchange for return of the Payment Terminal and SIM card in good condition and complete with all accessories, power leads, batteries, chargers and handbooks.

You should contact us at the address given on the front sheet to make arrangements for redelivery and valuation of the Payment Terminal for this purpose.

 

[GFI]

Thanks for the clarification : )

Well I will let them take me to court then. I will put the contract in front of a judge, all the performance evidence etc and request a reasonable judgement.

I will not just roll over!

It is literally legalised extortion!

If I lose I lose - I will still fight these robbers hard!

 

[Nochexman]

Are you personally liable for the contract or is it a limited company or some other entity?

 

[GFI]

It is a ltd company.

I signed the paperwork as a director of the company.