Can I claim for Statutory Redundancy pay without CN-number because insolvent employer is headquartered overseas?

[UKbrnchEmplyee]

Hi all, can I claim for Statutory Redundancy pay without a CN-number? We can't obtain this CN-number unfortunately because the insolvent employer is headquartered overseas and conducting the insolvency proceedings of the company there.

The company has insolvency practitioners only working in the US, and not in the UK where we have a branch and where I'm based. Hence, there's no insolvency practitioner / administrator in the UK to issue a CN-number. This number is apparently needed to be able to start any process towards a claim for Statutory Redundancy payout.

Is there a way to get to the Statutory Redundancy payout stage (with the Redundancy Payments Service) by somehow proving that the company headquarters are insolvent and therefore also the branch, without having to go via the tribunal route?

 

[Lisa Thomas]

I've never heard of this before - sounds like they are progressing it via a foreign insolvency procedure so you will need to check what the foreign insolvency processes are and whether they have a similar scheme to the UK.

As far as I am aware you must have a CN number to claim here on a UK insolvency.

Unfortunately it sounds like that doesn't apply to you.

You can check with the Redundancy Payments Office helpline here 0300 123 1100

 

[UKbrnchEmplyee]

I've never heard of this before - sounds like they are progressing it via a foreign insolvency procedure so you will need to check what the foreign insolvency processes are and whether they have a similar scheme to the UK.

As far as I am aware you must have a CN number to claim here on a UK insolvency.

Unfortunately it sounds like that doesn't apply to you.

You can check with the Redundancy Payments Office helpline here 0300 123 1100

Thank you Lisa. They confirmed that they do not have a similar scheme to the UK.

Has anyone ever come across a situation, by any chance, in which the employees could prove that the parent company is insolvent and therefore could avoid needing the CN-number?

 

[ChrisCallaghan]

Thank you Lisa. They confirmed that they do not have a similar scheme to the UK.

Has anyone ever come across a situation, by any chance, in which the employees could prove that the parent company is insolvent and therefore could avoid needing the CN-number?

The closest example I have come across is where the UK employer company was dissolved without being formally liquidated, hence no CN ref number. The staff went tribunal route, and won, but all the RPO did was contact the director, and offer to pay the staff claims if the director was willing to personally guarantee the payments, and come to a payment arrangement with RPO for the claims.

Unsurprisingly the director said no.

If the RPO have confirmed they won't consider a claim without a CN ref number, then sadly I suspect that would be the end of it.

 

[UKbrnchEmplyee]

The closest example I have come across is where the UK employer company was dissolved without being formally liquidated, hence no CN ref number. The staff went tribunal route, and won, but all the RPO did was contact the director, and offer to pay the staff claims if the director was willing to personally guarantee the payments, and come to a payment arrangement with RPO for the claims.

Unsurprisingly the director said no.

If the RPO have confirmed they won't consider a claim without a CN ref number, then sadly I suspect that would be the end of it.

Thank you Chris, that's very kind that you responded.
Bear in mind that there will soon be insolvency of the US parent company and thereafter it will show insolvency on Company's House and proof of insolvency will exist, at some point.
Does that change the prospect of a (positive) outcome?

 

[ChrisCallaghan]

I think as @Lisa Thomas has suggested, your best bet is to communicate with the Redundancy Payments Office helpline. However if your legal employer was the US based entity, which has now entered into some form insolvency process through the US legal system, then no CN ref will be generated and the RPO won't be able to consider your claim.

 

[UKbrnchEmplyee]

I think as @Lisa Thomas has suggested, your best bet is to communicate with the Redundancy Payments Office helpline. However if your legal employer was the US based entity, which has now entered into some form insolvency process through the US legal system, then no CN ref will be generated and the RPO won't be able to consider your claim.

Thank you Chris. RPO have said we need to go the tribunal route, but haven't said more than this.

 

[Lisa Thomas]

Thank you Chris, that's very kind that you responded.
Bear in mind that there will soon be insolvency of the US parent company and thereafter it will show insolvency on Company's House and proof of insolvency will exist, at some point.
Does that change the prospect of a (positive) outcome?

That's only proof that the parent company is insolvent, not the US company you are referring to, unfortunately.

It might go some way to helping with any tribunal but I can't imagine the UK will pay up for a debt incurred by a foreign company's insolvency.

 

[UKbrnchEmplyee]

That's only proof that the parent company is insolvent, not the US company you are referring to, unfortunately.

It might go some way to helping with any tribunal but I can't imagine the UK will pay up for a debt incurred by a foreign company's insolvency.

We are now trying to achieve a winding-up petition in the UK, given that we (employees) in the UK have not received our wages. Hopefully that will lead to a CN-number.

 

[IanSuth]

which company was on your contracts - if it was the UK ltd company then it is the UK company making you redundant no matter what the US parent says

 

[UKbrnchEmplyee]

which company was on your contracts - if it was the UK ltd company then it is the UK company making you redundant no matter what the US parent says

On our contracts it says '[Employer's name*], Registered in England Nr. _____; VAT Nr. ________'.

(*Name of the US company)

The logo on the contracts is the same as the US company logo.

It says in the text of the contract: "The position is based at our offices in London...".

On Company's House, when one looks up our company, it says 'This is a UK establishment of:' followed by a link to the US company.

 

[ChrisCallaghan]

We are now trying to achieve a winding-up petition in the UK, given that we (employees) in the UK have not received our wages. Hopefully that will lead to a CN-number.

On our contracts it says '[Employer's name*], Registered in England Nr. _____; VAT Nr. ________'.

That all sounds hopeful then. If your legal employer is a UK reg'd company, and that company enters into liquidation (either voluntary, or compulsory via a winding up petition), that will generate a CN ref number for a claim.

Be mindful that pursuing a winding-up petition can be costly. A solicitor isn't legally required, however most would require a solicitor's assistance. If you'd like a recommendation to a firm that can assist with this, I'd personally recommend www.mdlaw.co.uk. They are based in Sheffield (near me) but operate UK wide. I'm sure @Lisa Thomas could also make recommendations should you wish to compare quotes for services.

 

[ChrisCallaghan]

If you have not done so already, you may also wish to factor in how much your claim would be when considering the costs involved in going for a winding up petition. The two below links will help with this:

• https://www.gov.uk/your-rights-if-your-employer-is-insolvent/what-you-can-get
• https://www.gov.uk/calculate-your-redundancy-pay

 

[UKbrnchEmplyee]

That all sounds hopeful then. If your legal employer is a UK reg'd company, and that company enters into liquidation (either voluntary, or compulsory via a winding up petition), that will generate a CN ref number for a claim.

Be mindful that pursuing a winding-up petition can be costly. A solicitor isn't legally required, however most would require a solicitor's assistance. If you'd like a recommendation to a firm that can assist with this, I'd personally recommend ...

Thank you very much Chris.
The claim would be a lot, as we've worked for the company over decades.

Thank you so much for the recommendation of mdlaw. We'll certainly look into the firm.

I'm a member of a Union, so hopefully they can help with the winding-up petition, and cost of achieving this (although they might be fearful of the complexity).

 

[Newchodge]

Thank you very much Chris.
The claim would be a lot, as we've worked for the company over decades.

Thank you so much for the recommendation of mdlaw. We'll certainly look into the firm.

I'm a member of a Union, so hopefully they can help with the winding-up petition, and cost of achieving this (although they might be fearful of the complexity).

The Union should have a legal department and access to external lawyers, so they should be able to help. I would contact them before doing anything else. May I ask which union it is?

 

[UKbrnchEmplyee]

The Union should have a legal department and access to external lawyers, so they should be able to help. I would contact them before doing anything else. May I ask which union it is?

Thank you Newchodge. It's Unite The Union. Is that good or bad?

 

[Newchodge]

Thank you Newchodge. It's Unite The Union. Is that good or bad?

Pretty reasonable - I was a member and shop stewrad with them, while I worked for UNISON. There are a lot worse!

 

[UKbrnchEmplyee]

If you have not done so already, you may also wish to factor in how much your claim would be when considering the costs involved in going for a winding up petition. The two below links will help with this:

That all sounds hopeful then. If your legal employer is a UK reg'd company, and that company enters into liquidation (either voluntary, or compulsory via a winding up petition), that will generate a CN ref number for a claim.

Be mindful that pursuing a winding-up petition can be costly. A solicitor isn't legally required, however most would require a solicitor's assistance. If you'd like a recommendation to a firm that can assist with this, I'd personally recommend Mdlaw. They are based in Sheffield (near me) but operate UK wide. I'm sure @Lisa Thomas could also make recommendations should you wish to compare quotes for services.

That all sounds hopeful then. If your legal employer is a UK reg'd company, and that company enters into liquidation (either voluntary, or compulsory via a winding up petition), that will generate a CN ref number for a claim.

Be mindful that pursuing a winding-up petition can be costly. A solicitor isn't legally required, however most would require a solicitor's assistance. If you'd like a recommendation to a firm that can assist with this, I'd personally recommend Mdlaw. They are based in Sheffield (near me) but operate UK wide. I'm sure @Lisa Thomas could also make recommendations should you wish to compare quotes for services.

Chris, may I ask you kindly to find this case for me? Would you be able to send it to me?

Re Eloc Electro-Optiek and Communicate BV [1982] Ch. 43

 

[Newchodge]

Chris, may I ask you kindly to find this case for me? Would you be able to send it to me?

Re Eloc Electro-Optiek and Communicate BV [1982] Ch. 43

Do you know which court it was in? Was it in the Netherlands?

 

[ChrisCallaghan]

Chris, may I ask you kindly to find this case for me? Would you be able to send it to me?

Re Eloc Electro-Optiek and Communicate BV [1982] Ch. 43

Sorry @UKbrnchEmplyee , finding case law documents is outside my skill set!

 

[UKbrnchEmplyee]

Do you know which court it was in? Was it in the Netherlands?

Thank you Cyndy. In the UK. I got the information from here:
The 36th on the list on a nsolvencydirect.bis.gov uk website

NOTES TO PART 1: CROSS BORDER INSOLVENCY CONCERNING COUNTRIES OUTSIDE THE UK '​

 

[Newchodge]

I would still start with your union.

 

[UKbrnchEmplyee]

I think as @Lisa Thomas has suggested, your best bet is to communicate with the Redundancy Payments Office helpline. However if your legal employer was the US based entity, which has now entered into some form insolvency process through the US legal system, then no CN ref will be generated and the RPO won't be able to consider your claim.

The Insolvency Service has now sent us a document with a CN number, after we submitted a form with the name of the employer and also informing the Insolvency Service that the employer has confirmed in writing that won't receive our wages. Is this a CN number we can use when we apply for Statutory Redundancy, or is this a different CN-number? It's confusing because this number on the Insolvency Service document starts with CN, but the insolvency administrators also issue a number starting with CN, it seems.

 

[Newchodge]

The Insolvency Service has now sent us a document with a CN number, after we submitted a form with the name of the employer and also informing the Insolvency Service that the employer has confirmed in writing that won't receive our wages. Is this a CN number we can use when we apply for Statutory Redundancy, or is this a different CN-number? It's confusing because this number on the Insolvency Service document starts with CN, but the insolvency administrators also issue a number starting with CN, it seems.

Try it and see.