Can Doormen be self employed?

Hi all,

Can doormen/bouncers be self employed? How does the HMRC see it?

Doormen choose their own hours, pay their own Licence costs of £220 every 3 years, pay for their own training, can send a substitute doormain and they take care of their own tax and NI. I have known a doorman not turn up as he got more money elsewhere one weekend.

Looks self employed to me, but what about supervision on the job, thats the only thing im unsure of ?

Anyone come across this situation?

Thanks
 
Also, if HMRC are fine with doormen being self employed, if they find that a doorman hasnt paid tax and NI will they go after the invoicing company that issued invoices and payment on behalf of the doorman?

My initial opinion is that as each doorman gets a contract FOR services then he is aware of his obligations and therefore its is solely his responsibility?

Any ideas on the 2 points I have made today would be great.
 
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Hi all,

Not sure why but I did add something to this post yesterday but it hasn't appeared on here.....

If a doorman/contractor does not pay his tax and NI would HMRC then go after a payroll company that deals with his invoicing / pay.

It's made clear from the start that the doorman/contractor has a contract FOR services from the invoicing company and they are responsible for these payment but just wanted clarification who HMRC turn to if it turns out that a contractor has decided to not pay up.

Thanks
Franco
 
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Karimbo

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  • Nov 5, 2011
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    Hi all,

    Not sure why but I did add something to this post yesterday but it hasn't appeared on here.....

    If a doorman/contractor does not pay his tax and NI would HMRC then go after a payroll company that deals with his invoicing / pay.

    It's made clear from the start that the doorman/contractor has a contract FOR services from the invoicing company and they are responsible for these payment but just wanted clarification who HMRC turn to if it turns out that a contractor has decided to not pay up.

    Thanks
    Franco

    HEH? How can someone be on payroll and be self employed at the same time?

    I would imagine the doorman will have a client/accountant type relationship with whover is handling their submissions. Therefore doorman will be fully liable for this.

    If the accountant/bookkeeper was liable I can assure you no accountant will touch mini cab drivers, takeaway owners etc who all under declare their income. It's not worth the legal repurcussions for the little renumeration they get from a mini cab client. Something like £100-£150 per year.

    /caveat emptor - uneducated opinion.
     
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    Thanks for the replies guys.

    The doorman works on site, the security company send his hours with payment to an invoicing company who produce invoices for about 20-25 doormen every week. They then take their deduction and pay the doorman. Its easier this way otherwise the invoices wouldnt turn up from the doorman and its straight foward for the security company.

    As each doorman is a contractor under a contract for services then they are self employed and work as and when they want.
     
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    paulears

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    Jan 7, 2015
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    Standard practice - and it works well. So using Great Yarmouth as an example, all the doormen are self-employed, able to work for whoever they wish, but their work comes through an agency who deal with invoicing and arranging cover, but as they are all radio contactable, a disturbance at venue A can get a quick response from venue B staff.

    It's been working this way for ages.
     
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    kyeb

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    Dec 7, 2011
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    HMRC DO have a problem with self-employed doorman as do the Security Industry Agency and Approved Contractor Scheme (who actually report security companies to HMRC if they use self-employed people). HMRC lose revenue if the individuals are engaged on a self-employed basis and so always resist this but for some reason they have a particular problem with doorman and they are of the firm opinion that very few doorman can be genuinely self-employed.

    I am not saying this is the correct approach but it is HMRC's take on the situation.

    Although the individual will be responsible for their own tax affairs, HMRC will assess the company engaging them for all tax and national insurance, including the individuals, and then offset it if you can prove the individuals have paid the correct amount.

    If you are merely providing a payment function and are not in the contractual chain, this will be the security companies issue. If you are purporting to actually engage the individuals via your business under a contract for services, the liability would fall on your company.

    This is a high risk industry with regard to self-employment and I wouldn't go into lightly or without a thorough knowledge of the area otherwise it will ultimately cause you and your clients many sleepless nights and a rather large tax liability to pay.
     
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    what about what paulears said above?

    I used to think:

    As HMRC take it on a case by case basis as long as the security company can prove that the doormen are not managed in anyway when they are doing their job and carrying out their duties and can come and go as they please I personally think its ok, regardless of if someone actually pays their tax, thats another matter for the individual to be responsible and do whats right.

    But I guess that nobody really knows until HMRC knock on the door.
     
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    paulears

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    Jan 7, 2015
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    Indeed - my own area of work is alongside some of these people. People's status can indeed change from job to job, depending on the skills needed. The registered door keepers, with the security checks and badging (and importantly) direct criminal responsibility if they act poorly. If, as does happen, doormen get arrested after an incident, they are on their own - no employer, no manager, just a booking agency. People like Showsec use self-employed people for the key jobs, and people taken on as PAYE, because they recognise the distinction, and as far as I'm aware, so do HMRC. In the entertainment and music industry we can have very strange classifications for work. It's common for a working team of people to be individual contractors - self-employed people, invoicing for their work alongside others who are paid their contract fee divided by the length of the production, weekly with no tax or NI deductions, while others simply because the contract contains the word 'performer' fall under one of the negotiated HMRC exceptions and get their contract fee less Class 1 NI, but no tax! These people can end up paying Class1, Class 2 and Class 4 NI - which is very strange, but correct.

    I've got one contract coming up where I change status during the working period. I get a simple fee on production of a VAT invoice for part 1, then when hats change, the invoice for the next period will NOT be paid in full, as NI will be deducted! Make that work in your accounts! Balancing payments grrrrr.

    Back to the security people. Back in 2005, the security guys were invoicing clients direct, but the hassle was not taxation, it was coordination. The current agency style system is much better, and the clients don't need to know who is coming, just the quantity. The individuals invoice the agency for days worked. If they arrange cover themselves, it's perfectly fine - IR35 seems very straightforward. No doubt HMRC could well interfere.

    I'm not sure that losing money is something they concern themselves with, just meeting the rules, the guidelines and the trends and rule interpretation. If a sector as a 'whole' appear to be avoiding instead of minimising their tax liability, then they'll alter the system - they rarely seem to target individuals on these cases, because of the rubric it creates.
     
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    Hi Paul,

    Thanks for that info.

    I used to work in the security sector and we had problems collecting invoices all of the time from the close protection ops, so when a company can offer to do this it saves time and takes away phone calls and problems, so its a better way for security companies as long as the staff are self employed !!
     
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