Builder not paid subcontractor

[eurows]

I recently appointed a builder to put a conservatory up.He got a 'friend' to supply the glass and the windows. I paid throughout the job which in total was £9800.00. I finally owe £1494.20.

Just before I was about to pay by bacs the final payment. His 'friend' called up and said he had not been paid. The builder will not pay him. I called the builder who said he had paid him some money. Which I doubt. The 'friend' who I will call a subcontractor now says that I should pay him the balance of the payment.

My contract is with the builder for £9800. I feel if I pay the subcontractor I will have failed in my responsibility to fulfil my part of the contract. I do however feel guilt that the subcontractor has not been paid.

The subcontractor says that the windows (conservatory) are his property until the builder clears his debt.

To make the situation more complex the company the sub contractor bought the windows from (and has not yet paid) says I should pay them the balance. I feel the situation is getting rather unsavoury.

There are a few things I need answering:-

A. My contract is with the builder not the subcontractors? It is the subcontractors responsibility to ensure the builder pays them?

B. If the builder requests the balance of the payment weather or not he is paying his subcontractors he has every right to do so under the agreement I had with the builder?

C. Is there any instance where I could pay the subcontractor the balance?

D. If I pay the subcontractor am I agreeing by default responsibility for the subcontractors bill?

E. Has the subcontractor any rights over the work and equipment he supplied as part of the builders contract?

I was relatively concerned that the builder would pay the sub contractors enough to bring it to the attention of the subcontractors on more than two occassion. I was told by the subcontractor the builder was settling their account.

I have a record and signature from the builder of all payments made to them and the builder agrees the balance. But he wants it now paid to him. Even though I feel he has no intention of paying the subcontractor.

Any help and points of law would be appreciated.

 

[simon field]

Hi

Sounds nightmarish indeed.

My advice is to pay the builder what you owe him, get the final signed receipt from him and ignore the subcontractor.

That may sound harsh, but it's the only way imho.

Any feud they have over money is none of your business, and if the subcontract fella threatens to remove stuff then call the police - he is not allowed to harass you as you have no dealings with him.

I'm no legal expert but I'm pretty sure nobody is allowed to dismantle your house, the same goes for the conservatory supply company.

Hope it gets sorted!

Simon

 

[Homer J Simpson]

Hi

Sounds nightmarish indeed.

My advice is to pay the builder what you owe him, get the final signed receipt from him and ignore the subcontractor.

That may sound harsh, but it's the only way imho.

Any feud they have over money is none of your business, and if the subcontract fella threatens to remove stuff then call the police - he is not allowed to harass you as you have no dealings with him.

I'm no legal expert but I'm pretty sure nobody is allowed to dismantle your house, the same goes for the conservatory supply company.

Hope it gets sorted!

Simon

Um, he fitted them !

 

[Homer J Simpson]

My advice would be withold the payment from the builder until you are happy that the subcontractor will not come after you for money/goods (i.e. the builder pays him or proves that he has).

 

[chalkie99]

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=3594217

 

[paulears]

The sub-contractor is exactly that. He is paid by the builder - nothing to do with you, unless you agreed his rates of pay, and they were itemised as a separate item - you pay builder for conservatory, and you pay the bloke for his time.

You need in a way to pay the invoice in full, because title then passes to you. Even if you did decide to pay the subcontractor - how would you know what to pay him? His dealings with the builder are between them. He sells the components to the builder, he sells them to you. Any dispute is between them. I suppose he could claim the builder stole the components, so you have stolen property, which could be returned to the owner, but I doubt the Police would view it as theft, but as a civil dispute.

As ten grand is involved, I'd get myself a 30 minute appointment with a solicitor and take proper advice and they'll know the correct way to proceed.

 

[Michael Gerard]

Some good points Paulears makes but there is no need to instruct a solicitor.

It is simple. You have a contract with the builder. The builder is contractually obliged to fulfill its obligations, that is to build you a conservatory, and you are contractually obliged to pay the builder. There is no obligation to pay any third party.

If you do pay the subbie etc. then you are putting yourself at serious risk of being pursued by the builder for the balance, and your defence of having paid a third party will fail, so you will end up having to pay out the balance twice.

If of course the builder is in breach of contract (ie, defects, time, etc), then you have a defence to withhold monies, but this still will not allow you to pay a third party the monies owed to the builder (only perhaps to set-off monies for [ie] remedial work).

As with retention of title, even if this was a valid term between the builder and its subbie, notwithstanding the laws of trespass (the subbie could not simply walk onto your premises and take 'his' components), the components would be deemed to have been annexed to the building and hence it would be impossible for the RoT to bite.

 

[simon field]

Um, he fitted them !

Yes, for the builder.

 

[Spearmint]

There are a few things I need answering:-

A. My contract is with the builder not the subcontractors? It is the subcontractors responsibility to ensure the builder pays them?

B. If the builder requests the balance of the payment weather or not he is paying his subcontractors he has every right to do so under the agreement I had with the builder?

C. Is there any instance where I could pay the subcontractor the balance?

D. If I pay the subcontractor am I agreeing by default responsibility for the subcontractors bill?

E. Has the subcontractor any rights over the work and equipment he supplied as part of the builders contract?

I was relatively concerned that the builder would pay the sub contractors enough to bring it to the attention of the subcontractors on more than two occassion. I was told by the subcontractor the builder was settling their account.

I have a record and signature from the builder of all payments made to them and the builder agrees the balance. But he wants it now paid to him. Even though I feel he has no intention of paying the subcontractor.

Any help and points of law would be appreciated.

Charlie gave you a good reply, but to answer the points you've raised I'd say the following:-

A. Correct
B. Correct
C. No, you're contract is with the main contractor.
D. Do not pay or negotiate with the sub-contractor. Advise him that his beef is with the main contractor. You could mention that to him that there is no aspect of his work that is under dispute, so you can't see any reason why the main contractor isn't paying him, as you have paid the main contractor already. Just in case, he's being fobbed off by the main contractor.
E. No. Refer him back to the main contractor

I can see that you are clearly concerned that the sub contractor hasn't been paid, but you must avoid getting involved, as it could make things very messy, and you could lose out, particularly if you have to try and recover money that you have paid out to a disgruntled subbie, from the main contractor, and from what you've already told us, it doesn't sound as if he's a man of his word, so you are likely to end up paying more than the agreed contract value. And then, you could end up with a court case trying to recover that amount.

If you still have money to pay to complete the contract, make sure that you are totally happy before you release that money, even if there are minor snags outstanding.

 

[MikeJ]

OP is 6 months old. The spammer above you brought this to the top.