Bio-diesel?

We are currently trying to reduce our carbon footprint, so we have decided to trial bio fuel in our fleet vehicles. I was just wondering if anyone had any experiences or advice on this matter?

 

[Smudge]

Try this link in The Green Room.

http://www.ukbusinessforums.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=57063

 

[Cornish Steve]

We are currently trying to reduce our carbon footprint, so we have decided to trial bio fuel in our fleet vehicles. I was just wondering if anyone had any experiences or advice on this matter?

Just be careful to understand all additional costs and also the negative impact that some so-called green approaches are having on our environment. For example, some biofuels just make things worse.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle2507851.ece

 

[SpeedyExpressCouriers]

Bio-Diesel smells pretty bad, I used it in 1 of my cars once. It stunk so bad i wouldn't go back to it.

 

[Davey B]

Ach, running around in a mobile do-nut fryer is a marvellous talking point

Shame Liddl's hiked up their price of veggie oil from .49p per litre to .79p within months of the laws relaxing

 

[Steve Mason]

The best thing here would probably to hunt down someone who's actually used the stuff, the web's terrible for conflicting information. One website can say you just need to add methanol to old veggie oil and away you go in a diesel engine without needs for modification, others reckon otherwise... if it were me I'd steer clear of it for now, too many grey areas and too much conflicting data for my liking. For now!

 

[Davey B]

<--- Runs a 1st generation Frontera 2.8 Isusu lump on it quite happily since the relaxations in the law, 50/50 blend during the summer and slightly less veggie power for the winter due to viscosity. Actually she runs better and has higher fuel economy if you change the fuel filter a bit more, always carry a spare just in case

I'll be looking at SVO options along with waste oil at some point but would I try it with a modern diesel - Yer too right as long as I'm happy with the pump

 

[Davey B]

Do you know that Rudolf Diesel designed his lump to run on Peanut Oil? That man had great business foresight when it came to seeing the shortage of other oils

 

[Cornish Steve]

The best thing here would probably to hunt down someone who's actually used the stuff, the web's terrible for conflicting information. One website can say you just need to add methanol to old veggie oil and away you go in a diesel engine without needs for modification, others reckon otherwise... if it were me I'd steer clear of it for now, too many grey areas and too much conflicting data for my liking. For now!

I get rather worried about this. On the one hand, there's oil refined through a proven and well-designed process with additives that get the most out of an engine. On the other hand, there's smelly used vegetable oil mixed with methanol. And we're led to believe the latter is better for the environment?!

You're right. There's so much misinformation out there. Combined with a current obsession for anything green, heaven only knows what we're really doing to the environment.

 

We are actually using rapeseed oil. We're not mixing it. It will be 100%. So it means that it is all from a sustainable source, and the diesel is all delivered by vehicles that run on it. It is quite pricey, but if it works well, we are very prepared to use it.

 

[Cornish Steve]

Then just be aware of the report quoted above that points out that rapeseed oil produces more greenhouse gases than oil or petrol.

 

[ianw]

A haulage company in the North West run on 100% Biodiesel - jpmecologistics.co.uk their fuel is from Greenfuel Oil Co who supply UK/European sourced fuel. JPM won investment on Dragons Den back in December. There are lots of interesting articles to read on the net, as others have said read both the good and the bad.

 

[cjs]

We are currently trying to reduce our carbon footprint, so we have decided to trial bio fuel in our fleet vehicles. I was just wondering if anyone had any experiences or advice on this matter?

bit off topic, but i was recently in Peru and was shown how they use natural gases to power cars etc over there and the government pay for the cars to be switched to be able to run on natural gases.

Im currently in talks with the climate group, a company in Peru and my business partner in Argentina about exporting it to the UK for use with Bus's and Taxi's in London

 

That sounds really interesting. We are currently looking into the Times article in the above post. cjs - any chance of some more info on that?

 

[fastmower]

It should be borne in mind that bio diesel and vegetable oil are two entirely different things - there seems to be some confusion here on the matter!

Bio diesel is produced from vegetable oil - it is not "thinned" with methanol - it is chemically altered by a process called transesterification - which involves methanol and a catalyst - sodium or potassium hydroxide. Any excess methanol from the reaction is removed prior to use, as are other products formed by the process - glycerol and soaps etc. Properly made biodiesel is, in the vast majority of cases, a direct replacement for normal pump diesel - and it is a component of pump fuel by law in some European countries.

Many diesel engines can run quite happily on "mixtures" of vegetable oil and "normal" diesel - though soya based oils are best avoided. The greater the percentage of vegetable oil, the more important it is that engine modifications are made - generally comprising a heat exchanger system to pre-heat the oil and make it less viscous. Lucas injector pumps don't like veg - Bosch pumps are a better bet.You may have noticed that veg oil prices in supermarkets have risen considerably over the past year - and veg oil is generally the only product you'll find on the supermarket shelf that now costs MORE per litre when you buy a bigger bottle Nothing to do with the producers by all accounts - it's all down to the likes of Tesco et al wanting to pull your pants down.

Acetone is a useful additive for normal diesel in very small concentrations - 1.5ml per litre -this decreases the surface tension of the diesel and results in a finer spray pattern through the injectors, and hence a better combustion. Several Transit owners I know - myself included, are getting 40 plus miles extra per tankful of fuel.

Cheers all,

Andy

 

[4xfun]

Acetone is a useful additive for normal diesel in very small concentrations - 1.5ml per litre -this decreases the surface tension of the diesel and results in a finer spray pattern through the injectors, and hence a better combustion. Several Transit owners I know - myself included, are getting 40 plus miles extra per tankful of fuel.

Cheers all,

Andy

And from where do we mere mortals purchase said acetone from then, and in what quantities and at what price?

 

[abovezero]

I think the issues surrounding bio-diesel are still being debated. It is probably not the solution we all hoped it would be.

 

[4xfun]

I think the issues surrounding bio-diesel are still being debated. It is probably not the solution we all hoped it would be.

Correct. It's creeping up in price like everything else. Even Auto gas is rising steadily now too I notice.
Diesel has gone up 3 times 'round here in the last week, and rumours from a garage I visit to do some work at, are that 'we ain't seen anything yet', according to their delivery driver.
£1.50 p.l., that's about £7.50 a gallon, should be well within expectations by the end of the year...apparently.

I've just got my old Disco Tdi back on the road again today. Bio available locally...when they haven't run out , @ 89p p.l., and just stocked up on Asda's own veggie oil to top it up with @ 75p p.l.

I believe that the 'lovely' chancellor of ours is not budging on the pleas to scrap the iminent 2p p.l. rise either just to add to us motorists misery.

 

[fastmower]

The biggest problem in all of this is the bloody Government screwing us into the floor once again. The Americans moan about the price of petrol and they pay a fraction of what we do - and the politicians over there know full well that huge increases in fuel tax would be a ticket on the fast train to leaving office.

Most of the producers of biodiesel in the UK are relatively small scale operations, but as soon as any producer wants to legally sell a single litre of fuel, there are a million and one regulatory hoops to jump through. This means that to stand any chance of being financially viable, any commercial producer is going to have to be producing and selling many thousands of litres per day just to cover the cost of all the regulations they need to meet. With the pricing structure of UK road fuel as it is, the producer (Shell, BP etc) and the retailer running the local garage get only a few pence per litre between them. The last time I looked into it, the retailers were on about 3 pence per litre, and IIRC the producers were only on 7 or 9 pence. The vast majority of the price goes straight back to the government so they can train several thousand new psychological counsellors etc, and all the other vital things in life. The only realistic way ahead with this lot in power could be making your own and staying within the 2500 litres per year limit.

4xfun - acetone is readily available to all and sundry - in expensive small bottles from a decent chemist, in larger quantities from several ebay sellers (it can be sent with a carrier no problem) or the cheapest will be from a local glass fibre supplies business - they use it for cleaning tools etc - and it's around £6 for 5 litres from them.

Andy

 

[nigel]

You can now make your own bio fuel, take a look at this website;
www.greenfuels.co.uk

 

[4xfun]

4xfun - acetone is readily available to all and sundry - in expensive small bottles from a decent chemist, in larger quantities from several ebay sellers (it can be sent with a carrier no problem) or the cheapest will be from a local glass fibre supplies business - they use it for cleaning tools etc - and it's around £6 for 5 litres from them.

Andy

Not much dearer than diesel then ey?

Any forum discussions anywhere on this before I lob some in the family car?
Want to make sure it's perfectly ok before trying it out.

 

[fastmower]

You can buy machinery or build your own for a hell of a lot less money too! The FuelPod etc all look very nice, but you're paying a lot for cosmetics. I still don't have enough posts to allow me to post links but if you go and find the vegetableoildiesel forum, you'll find a hell of a lot of information, as well as links to plans (that's free plans btw - not the "send me £300 and I'll do you a drawing" type plans) and suppliers who are selling processors at a much more realistic price. Biodiesel is one of those projects you need to do some reading about - nearly everyone in the game has made bad batches or had things go wrong from time to time. The forum above has members who will answer all the questions that arise, and point you in the direction of much more cost effective ways of achieving the desired result. Many members are using processors based on old water heating tanks plumbed with copper plumbing pipe, and producing excellent quality fuel. You will also discover that there are many people who have jumped on the bio bandwagon and who are selling what is basically very simple machinery for very large sums of money! Refreshingly though - some people are the opposite! One of the forum members - a retired coppersmith - is making and selling all sorts of processing gear for little more than the cost of production - all hand made by a craftsman. Some of his pipework - mixers, condensers and venturis, would not look at all out of place sitting on your mantelpiece at home!

So my advice would be to do as much reading as possible and ask lots of questions before going out and spending an awful lot of cash!

Incidentally, a colleague of mine has just purchased a brand new 200 litre processor in stainless steel, which includes a heated de-water tank, methanol recovery unit, and all the associated gear - for less than half the price of the FuelPod which is a 50 litre unit.

Andy

 

[4xfun]

One of the forum members - a retired coppersmith - is making and selling all sorts of processing gear for little more than the cost of production - all hand made by a craftsman. Some of his pipework - mixers, condensers and venturis, would not look at all out of place sitting on your mantelpiece at home!
Andy

I'll mention it to the missus. Sounds better than the tat we currently have sitting there.

Thanks for the info btw.

 

[fastmower]

You're welcome mate!

Currently considering setting up as an interior design consultant - I reckon my mantelpiece concepts could have these airy fairy TV types quaking in their boots

Andy

 

[Smudge]

Acetone is a useful additive for normal diesel in very small concentrations - 1.5ml per litre -this decreases the surface tension of the diesel and results in a finer spray pattern through the injectors, and hence a better combustion. Several Transit owners I know - myself included, are getting 40 plus miles extra per tankful of fuel.

Cheers all,

Andy

I've ordered some acetone! But just found out this was busted by the mythbusters, they found that it didn't increase fuel economy. I'm still going to try this theory out.

They also found that using striaght vegetable oil decreases fuel economy, which I have suspected having used it.

I maybe getting about 45 miles less per tank of 50/50 Veg oil and diesel. I am now thinking its not worth the bother when it comes to saving money. In both cases of using striaght diesel or mixing it with vegatable oil its costing me about the same amount.

 

[aaamusements]

I ran my Peugeot 405 turbo on 100% pure vegetable oil with no ill effects. This only worked in mild weather however, at the first heavy frost it practically stopped, as expected; and had to be dosed up with 100% real diesel!
While running on veg oil:
It had no starting problems
Fuel economy was unaffected
If anything, performance was improved!
And it smelt lovely, like a chip van.

People have found that with the addition of tank and fuel preheaters their vehicles will run on pure veg oil all year round.

 

[Smudge]

I ran a Peugeot 205 on 100% vegetable oil some years ago. It never missed a beat. I can't do this with my Vaxhal, I've got to mix it with diesel.

 

[fastmower]

Regarding the acetone use - I haven't seen that particular episode of Mythbusters - but I am in regular contact with plenty of people who are using it, and without exception, they are not going back to NOT using it. I also use it myself and have gained more miles per tankful. The report that goes into detail - that I can't post here yet (!) also links to a wiki page, where there are many many reports from readers who have tried it and reported their results for everyone to see. So it's not like some manufacturer posting a "what our customers have said" list - the page can be added to by anyone who wishes to report their findings. A quick google search will give you plenty of material to sift through.

Cheers,
Andy

 

[4xfun]

I've ordered some acetone! But just found out this was busted by the mythbusters, they found that it didn't increase fuel economy. I'm still going to try this theory out.

They also found that using striaght vegetable oil decreases fuel economy, which I have suspected having used it.

I maybe getting about 45 miles less per tank of 50/50 Veg oil and diesel. I am now thinking its not worth the bother when it comes to saving money. In both cases of using striaght diesel or mixing it with vegatable oil its costing me about the same amount.

I tried running my Skoda Fabia vRS on a 50% bio diesel mix, and I have to say that the fuel economy was significantly worse by approx 7/8 mpg, thus wiping out any savings. Had to fit a new filter after 2000 miles too as it started running like an ole bag o' s***. That cured it as expected.

However, the Disco seems to love it. No significant change in mpg tbh.:|
Smells sweet too.
Just going to feed the Disco now, with Asda's best veggie.

 

[Smudge]

Regarding the acetone use - I haven't seen that particular episode of Mythbusters - but I am in regular contact with plenty of people who are using it, and without exception, they are not going back to NOT using it. I also use it myself and have gained more miles per tankful. The report that goes into detail - that I can't post here yet (!) also links to a wiki page, where there are many many reports from readers who have tried it and reported their results for everyone to see. So it's not like some manufacturer posting a "what our customers have said" list - the page can be added to by anyone who wishes to report their findings. A quick google search will give you plenty of material to sift through.

Cheers,
Andy

I'm still going to give the acetone a go.

Any chance of PM'ing me the report.

 

[meongroup]

Driving a two year old Jeep Cherokee CRD I use vegetable oil from my local supermarket in a 50/50 mixture. It doesnt smell any different to normal diesel fuel, consumption is marginally better, but this difference may be statistically insignificant. The only thing to watch is very cold weather. Near to freezing this can block the fuel filter - if you have oil central heating you may have experienced this. Diesel is treated to avoid this problem. I have used well filtered cooking oil, but suppliers are now offering to repurchase used oil so the cost is near to new oil. If anyone knows of a supplier of oil in bulk that would be useful.

 

[aaamusements]

If anyone knows of a supplier of oil in bulk that would be useful.

I found that oil in bulk could be more expensive than from the supermarket!
It is much less wasteful however: one returnable container as opposed to ten throwaway plastic bottles...

 

[fastmower]

Just a repeat of the advice to avoid using soya oil as that's what a lot of the cash and carry outfits sell in bulk. Rapeseed is thought to be the best bet, though sunflower and corn oil are similarly good.

Many local councils are now running plastic bottle recycling schemes with kerbside collection - that's where a good chunk of our work comes from! Just do us a favour and wash them out first!

Andy

 

[4xfun]

Many local councils are now running plastic bottle recycling schemes with kerbside collection - that's where a good chunk of our work comes from! Just do us a favour and wash them out first!

Andy

Surely not so good washing out these bottles, and then letting the oily waste water go down into the drains and beyond though?

 

[aaamusements]

Just a repeat of the advice to avoid using soya oil as that's what a lot of the cash and carry outfits sell in bulk. Rapeseed is thought to be the best bet, though sunflower and corn oil are similarly good.

Many local councils are now running plastic bottle recycling schemes with kerbside collection - that's where a good chunk of our work comes from! Just do us a favour and wash them out first!

Andy

Palm oil is the one to absolutely avoid as it is grown on deforested rainforest and then shipped miles to get here.

It's still not particularly ecological; washing bottles out with detergent, oil running down the drain as 4xfun rightly points out.
Plus recycling still uses energy and creates toxic waste. Refilling large containers does not.

 

[fastmower]

Good point on the palm oil

My warning about soya was more from a killing your engine point of view than a saving the planet one - and as I can now post links - here's what I was on about!

http://www.asg-analytik.de/Downloads/Infobriefe/Infobrief_2006_09_E.pdf

Don't worry about the German URL - it's all in English.

As far as washing goes, veg oil (and biodiesel for that matter) are both readily biodegradable. In fact the glycerol by product from bio production is often composted or fed into anaerobic digesters to produce electricity.

May as well give you some more links while I'm here:

Very useful forum on the subject:
http://www.vegetableoildiesel.co.uk/forum/index.php

The acetone report mentioned earlier:
http://pesn.com/2005/03/17/6900069_Acetone/

Hope they prove interesting reading!

Andy

 

[davidcavill]

We have had our Merc Vito converted to the 2 tank system using waste veg oil [which we get for free]
Up to now [after 30,000 miles] we have not had a single problem.
When we run out of free oil we buy in bulk from Makro at 69p a litre and even though its soya oil we haven't had any problems.
I'm afraid I have to say that running almost for free has made me a bit of a nerd [regarding oil only I hasten to add]

 

[aaamusements]

We have had our Merc Vito converted to the 2 tank system using waste veg oil [which we get for free]
Up to now [after 30,000 miles] we have not had a single problem.
When we run out of free oil we buy in bulk from Makro at 69p a litre and even though its soya oil we haven't had any problems.
I'm afraid I have to say that running almost for free has made me a bit of a nerd [regarding oil only I hasten to add]

The two tank conversion is in my mind the best all round solution.
This involves the engine being started, and run until warm; with regular diesel. This is supplied from a smaller secondary tank. Once warm the engine is switched to pure (usually preheated) veg oil.
When the engine is started again from cold the veg oil is automatically purged from the system to allow starting again on diesel.

That's interesting info about soya oil, I always used rapeseed personally.

 

[4xfun]

Acetone is a useful additive for normal diesel in very small concentrations - 1.5ml per litre -this decreases the surface tension of the diesel and results in a finer spray pattern through the injectors, and hence a better combustion. Several Transit owners I know - myself included, are getting 40 plus miles extra per tankful of fuel.

Cheers all,

Andy

I've just posted the acetone link onto the Difflock forum amongst all the bio and veggie threads, to see what the lads have to say about it.
After reading it Andy, and on the face of it, it looks good, and well worth a try, but I'll wait to see what other comments derive from my posting first.

I'll let you all know what response I receive.

Pardon my ignorance on this metric stuff, but how much is 1.5 ml per litre? Teaspoon full?

 

[abovezero]

Pardon my ignorance on this metric stuff, but how much is 1.5 ml per litre? Teaspoon full?

A teaspoon is usually considered as 5ml, so 1.5ml is just under a third of a teaspoon. This means it is a pretty small amount, i.e. a mix in the ration of 1:667.