Being Ripped Off By PaymentSense

In December 2012 we had a call from Paymentsense to go through the PCI compliant process. We do not hold credit cards information on our website as payments are via SagePay, we have two websites, the process took less than two minutes, In April 2013 on one of the statements for one of the websites it showed a charge of £50.00 for not being PCI compliant, I called them up and explained that I had done the process but they said it was only done for one website on that day, I thought this was odd as we started with them on the same day with two websites, it also turned out we had been charged £50.00 for the previous four months, after this they went through the process for the second website which involved the customer services agent saying "I will copy and paste the same information from one website to the other" job done, this month we get our statement only to find that they have now deducted £50.00 for each website, on calling them up they now say they have no recollection of them calling us in Dec (which does not explain how we can be compliant on one website and not the other), how can we resolve this and stop these cowboys stealing from our account plus get back the payments they have taken? Bear in mind that each month we pay a £4.99 management fee per website. Not great management in my opinion.
 
L

LMDServicesUK

Hi ManorBoy

I presume you are what we call a MID only customer e.g. you have only taken merchant accounts from us and not a payment gateway ?

Under PCI Compliance rules each of your merchant accounts has to be PCI Compliant irrespective of how you handle card data or whose gateway you process it through. Therefore if you have two websites they both need to be compliant.

More importantly this is an annual process, so it would appear that because you have not renewed your certification you have been fined.

When you fist set up your new accounts with us, you would have also received two sets of letters from FDMS PCI compliance team providing all your access details, if I understand your post correctly you have completed one of the accounts but not the other ? Also FDMS will always write to / email the address of record for the accounts with a reminder to undertake the compliance activity, and continue to do so until you do.

In any case you are being charged non compliance fees, so if you would like to PM me with you merchant account numbers for your websites, we can then raise a case with Customer Services for you to try and get it resolved, and see if we can get the fines appealed on your behalf.

Rgds

Mark
 
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L

LMDServicesUK

Yes, as I have mentioned before on previous posts, I am a BDM (self employed as are all of PS BDM's) with PaymentSense. And this is one of my business streams.

PaymentSense Ltd are an ISO and our Merchant Account Partner is First Data Merchant Solutions

We organise the obtaining of a merchant account(s), provisioning and implementation the terminals and ecomm gateways and providing the post sales support, the only exception being PCI Compliance which whilst we will always assist a merchant with it, always remains a direct contractual relationship between the Merchant and FDMS. PCI Compliance fines are NOT raised by PaymentSense and we do get any revenue from them.

I apologise if my use of grammar was at fault, not very well today, but I was concerned this poster needed some assistance hence my post to offer assistance.

Hope this helps ?
 
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Leslie

I do apologise my title is harsh it is purely out of frustration, we have problems every year with Paymentsense they never let us know when we are due for a check plus when we have gone through the checks we never get confirmation that we have passed the checks, it seems to me as though this is an easy way to take money from clients accounts and get away with it, as I said there was a mix up at the end of last year when I was told that one website had passed the PCI test but four months later it is un-compliant, there is something very wrong going on with this company, I hope their agent can help to sort this out.
 
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L

LMDServicesUK

Hi John

Whilst I am more than happy to set in and assist you, this issue continuously comes up in our industry, and the issue with the post it that you are tarring the wrong organisation.

PaymentSense DO NOT operate the PCI Compliance programmes, they do not charge you the management fee, or raise the fines, they receive no income from the programmes, this is always done by your respective Merchant account provider. Whilst I have a great deal of sympathy for your position you are blaming the wrong people for the problem.

The contractual position is that where you have a Merchant account with your account provider (in our case FDMS) you have to register for their PCI Compliance scheme PER account per annum, if you do not you will be fined.

PCI Compliance was introduced by the Card Schemes to reduce fraud and that it has done, however not all the merchant Account Providers are as good as each other at doing this, and I for one would love to see some of the revenue being generated by the Scheme being reinvested into providing accessible training material for smaller businesses who do not have the luxury of a full time IT Dept to deal with this.

Let us hope we will be able to assist you, with your issues with FDMS but yes I would have preferred a more subtle title that was also more accurate as well.

rgds

Mark
 
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In fairness to us and I presume other Payment sense customers, at no point have we ever been advised that you do not operate the PCI part of your business and do not raise the charges. For us as a customer the charges appear on our invoice headed with Payment sense so you must be able to forgive our confusion.

Either way the fact still remains that we have been chagred the amounts (in our opinion unfairly) and after being in contact with payment sense since 16th May we still have no resolution and are struggling to get anybody from there to call us back. We are blocked at every turn.

I have PM'd Mark and hope it will help.
 
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L

LMDServicesUK

Please can we seek clarity here.

PaymentSense DO NOT and ARE NOT invoicing anybody for PCI charges, or Management fees, the statements the merchant is referring to are issued by First Data Merchant Services Ltd who operate the PCI scheme for their merchants.

If any Merchant who is a customer of PaymentSense can provide me a scan of such a statement or invoice I will happily take up their case..

The only time a merchant will ever receive a direct invoice from PaymentSense is where they are using our Payment gateway service which is invoiced separately to their merchant account charges (FDMS or terminal fees (FDGL).

I totally agree that the way the industry manages PCI is awful, and PaymentSense are trying to improve the situation, but to put it into context this causes more complaints to us than any other issue, yet it is not managed or operated by us.

All of the ISO's have similar issues, but we are in the hands of the Merchant Service Providers and the Card Schemes.

John am in dialogue with your colleague, so will update you once I have spoken to them.
 
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I am more than happy to post a scan of our statement. The top left corner indeed does have the First Data logo but the left hand corner has the Payment Sense logo. If you squint a lot then under the First Data logo it says:

FDR Limited, doing business as First Data Merchant Solutions and PaymentSense are registered with MasterCard/Visa as an ISO/MSP of Bank of Scotland plc. PaymentSense is an agent of First Data Merchant Solutions.

Today is the first time I have read the small print at the top of the invoice. If the PaymentSense logo is on the invoice I can only assume I am being charged by them as they are the only contact I have for queries.
 
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L

LMDServicesUK

Tx John

Yes we are an Independent Sales Organisation that acts as a Reseller/Agent for FDMS, and yes we also have to be registered with the Card Schemes to operate in the UK.

The key thing is who do you pay your Direct Debit to for your merchant fees ? FDMS, not us..

Anyway have done some more digging re you guys and have found out some info, so I am speaking to your colleague this afternoon with an update.
 
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it appears to me to be a case of a very complex system and not a lot of information (in plain English) being available. Anyhow this doesn't really apply to me, but I wonder how many other people are hit like this. What worries me (as a card user) is that people are allowed to continue to trade if theya re not compliant. It really sounds like a money making exercise over a security one.

What is the law with compliance then? Surely if a trader is non compliant the service should be stopped until they become compliant. Or am I being too simplistic?
 
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TheGeekestLink

Free Member
May 4, 2011
372
23
Exactly the same thing has happened to me and I'm getting nowhere (well, an awful lot of passing the buck).

What's REALLY interesting is my accountant told me the other day how many companies fall victim to this, and in my personal case, PaymentServe have taken over 500 quid in charges since December over PCI compliance (one for an account they set up without my permission and are blatantly refusing to refund me for).

OldWelshGuy: Overall, it's an appalling system littered with pitfalls. It's nothing more than a money-making exercise. It took me 8 minutes to become compliant. I don't take or store card details so I can't see why I should be paying 500+ quid to tell someone I'm not any kind of risk.

Not sure what anyone can do. If the issuing company doesn't prepare you and fails to let you know when you ask: what do I need to do to make sure I've got everything set up and running, then you're really on to a losing streak.

Very unhappy with the responses I've had, to be fair. When I get a response at all. I know Mark will be reading this, but at this point, I very much doubt this is going to get any action (other than being rolled under the carpet).
 
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LMDServicesUK

Geekest Link

PaymentServe have taken over 500 quid in charges since December over PCI compliance (one for an account they set up without my permission and are blatantly refusing to refund me for).

Please modify your last post. You know very well that you have not been fined by PaymentSense at all and to suggest so is Slanderous to us. Your contractual agreement is with FDMS and a key condition of that agreement is that you remain PCI Compliant.

The fines were invoked by FDMS because you chose to ignore the renewal reminders for your two accounts.

The issues you had re your Payment Gateway were of a commercial nature and as far as we are concerned they have been resolved in your favour.

Mark
 
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Ian Spielman

Free Member
Sep 12, 2012
60
6
Manchester
Hi John

Whilst I am more than happy to set in and assist you, this issue continuously comes up in our industry, and the issue with the post it that you are tarring the wrong organisation.

PaymentSense DO NOT operate the PCI Compliance programmes, they do not charge you the management fee, or raise the fines, they receive no income from the programmes, this is always done by your respective Merchant account provider. Whilst I have a great deal of sympathy for your position you are blaming the wrong people for the problem.

The contractual position is that where you have a Merchant account with your account provider (in our case FDMS) you have to register for their PCI Compliance scheme PER account per annum, if you do not you will be fined.

PCI Compliance was introduced by the Card Schemes to reduce fraud and that it has done, however not all the merchant Account Providers are as good as each other at doing this, and I for one would love to see some of the revenue being generated by the Scheme being reinvested into providing accessible training material for smaller businesses who do not have the luxury of a full time IT Dept to deal with this.

Let us hope we will be able to assist you, with your issues with FDMS but yes I would have preferred a more subtle title that was also more accurate as well.

rgds

Mark

As a fellow Agent in the industry (NOT for payment sense I might add) I concur with Mark.
I have to say though that PCI tends to be confusing and frustrating for the merchant but we are not the ones who implemented this scheme.
 
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TheGeekestLink

Free Member
May 4, 2011
372
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Geekest Link

PaymentServe have taken over 500 quid in charges since December over PCI compliance (one for an account they set up without my permission and are blatantly refusing to refund me for).

Please modify your last post. You know very well that you have not been fined by PaymentSense at all and to suggest so is Slanderous to us. Your contractual agreement is with FDMS and a key condition of that agreement is that you remain PCI Compliant.

The fines were invoked by FDMS because you chose to ignore the renewal reminders for your two accounts.

The issues you had re your Payment Gateway were of a commercial nature and as far as we are concerned they have been resolved in your favour.

Mark

I never once made any mention of being fined by PaymentSense. I did, very clearly state that I had had money taken out of my account for non-compliance. The two are very different.

I'm such a happy person and I just want everyone to get along. But you cannot deny that I've been treated poorly. You've even admitted it in your emails, and I absolutely hate airing my dirty laundry in public, but this does need telling, if only for newcomers to avoid the same pitfalls!

I'm still certain we can resolve this to our mutual satisfaction. It's really not that hard to see where the issues lie!

My issue is solely around communication. At no point did anyone at PaymentSense clarify what the charges were on my account despite asking since January 2013 (after I received my first charge in December). It's only when I incurred the first £50 non-compliance charge that someone mentioned PCI - on the very day I received a letter reminding me that I was not compliant.

You know full well that this is a major issue as you've gone out of your way this past few months to make this very clear to people on the forum (which is great for those people taking note for the future and can only be applauded). But there's clearly a breakdown in communication and the only ones losing out is the end user.

The money was taken from my account from PaymentSense certainly without any warning or notification of the same. And the PCI issuing people at First Data made it very clear they have no jurisdiction here and that all issues are to be followed up with the issuing merchant.

I'd ask who is liable, but you'll only point the finger back at the end user.

I certainly don't recall EVER signing a contract with FDMS. However, if that is the case, it also goes two ways and as the OP has said, it's clear we've both been given no information on this issue and if you have the right to take money you also have an ethical (if not a legal) right to make it very clear what you are taking money for.

Again you'll say it's on your statement,and the one statement I've received I called my contact and asked for clarification and it took months to get this explained. And you know all of this! :)

Ultimately, it's easy to offer promises of help and acting as though you are the innocent party, but when it came down to it, I'm still being charged a monthly fee (so that hasn't been resolved), and I've got another £70 to come out of my account this month for PCI Compliance from last month. Why? Because the reminder letters are sent at the very end of the month, so they arrive just after the cut off period has expired for that month. While that's got nothing to do with PaymentSense, it is something I thought was interesting.

You yourself cannot deny the lack of responses to my emails and phone calls has been nothing short of legendary. It took literally four months to resolve the issues with the second account. Four months!!!

And on that subject: you say my issue was resolved in my favour yet two months later I'm still being charged...

In summary: I've been charged almost £300 in non-compliance fees on an account PaymentSense set up. And this is my ONLY issue and the only reason I'm griping. I can slap myself around for failing to know about PCI compliance on my own account. I can even live with the non-compliance charges as I should magically have uncovered that information, somehow. I can even live with not getting any paper reminders - that's just crap that happens and I CAN live with that. I've never once complained about any of that as that's all my stuff to deal with.

But the second account can not in any universe be MY problem as I didn't even know it existed!

It's pretty clear from your last email (before I posted this) that communication has broken down, which is a great shame. However, the sad fact is that you're responsible, if not wholly for these charges, then in part, yet you're far from willing to accept your portion of the blame. The fees on an account I did not set up and for which I had no knowledge - no one on earth can say I can be responsible for those fees.

I do hope we can sort this out as I hate bad feeling, but I do feel extremely short changed by the whole process - and quite rightly so.

But in your favour, I think you have got a handle on it now and that things will be far improved in the future for new customers. Which is only a very good thing for everyone!
 
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L

LMDServicesUK

Geekest Link

Play with the Language however you want but these are the facts.

Your comments from your last post are in bold, my responses follow.

My issue is solely around communication. At no point did anyone at PaymentSense clarify what the charges were on my account despite asking since January 2013 (after I received my first charge in December). It's only when I incurred the first £50 non-compliance charge that someone mentioned PCI - on the very day I received a letter reminding me that I was not compliant.


1. You entered into a contract with FDMS for your Merchant Account, PCI compliance is a requirement that is clearly stated within the Terms and Conditions that support the agreement you signed.

Any issues relating to charges on your Merchant account should have been addressed directly to FDMS Customer Services team. If they were PCI related they would have in turn referred you to their PCI Help Desk team. We often help Merchants with FDMS but your account is with them not us.

The money was taken from my account from PaymentSense certainly without any warning or notification of the same. And the PCI issuing people at First Data made it very clear they have no jurisdiction here and that all issues are to be followed up with the issuing merchant.

2. The only funds PaymentSense have debited from you were for your gateway fees, and I am sure your Bank would be happy to provide you a report of the debits taken from your account by FDMS and PaymentSense for the period in question.


3. For whatever reason you ignored the PCI Compliance letter and email reminders, and you were fined, the fees were then debited from your Business account by FDMS not Paymentsense.

4. Correct re the First Data PCI teams comments re your PCI fines, your Issuing Merchant is FDMS (who are the UK trading arm of First Data) or did you not understand this ?


I certainly don't recall EVER signing a contract with FDMS. However, if that is the case, it also goes two ways and as the OP has said, it's clear we've both been given no information on this issue and if you have the right to take money you also have an ethical (if not a legal) right to make it very clear what you are taking money for.
But the second account can not in any universe be MY problem as I didn't even know it existed!

5. If you signed up over the phone or Face to Face you would have been provided an FDMS Merchant application pack with terms and conditions and an FDMS DD mandate to sign and return to us.

Without those duly completed forms, we would not have been able to pass them to FDMS for processing. It is not possible for PaymentSense to open any account on your behalf, we manage the process yes, but the Bank decides whether it will grant you the account based on your signed application. You would have had to provide us a second requested an application pack for a second account.


If you like we will arrange for FDMS to make a copy of your original signed applications for both accounts to be made available to you. Of course if it does turn out the second account was opened by FDMS in error, we have very good ground to appeal all the fees you have ever paid against the (now closed) account.

I'm still being charged a monthly fee (so that hasn't been resolved), and I've got another £70 to come out of my account this month for PCI Compliance from last month.

6. If this fee is £ 19.99 it is your Minimum Monthly Service charge for your merchant account as per the terms of your agreement with FDMS, most Merchant account providers operate this policy whereby if you do not generate a minimum of charges from card transactions (as result of Sales), your charges are topped up accordingly. Even if you are trading zero revenue through your merchant account you will be billed £ 19.99 a month.

7. Again For whatever reason you ignored the PCI Compliance letters and email reminders, and therefore you have been fined. You are now compliant so the fines will stop.

8. My colleagues have put a massive amount of effort into trying to resolve your numerous issues, including ones not of our responsibility but we have tried to help nevertheless.

Where we have been at fault we have agreed and processed credits accordingly and I believe you are now receiving a free gateway service until November 2013.

They are still reviewing your case, and I will again be speaking with my colleagues tomorrow to progress the matter.

Finally re the OP I am also in dialogue with him separately and we are making excellent process with him, and now he has a clearer understanding of the situation, may have titled the Post he started slightly differently

Rgds

Mark
 
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L

LMDServicesUK

Extract from earlier posters post (cannot get this quoting thing to work !

What's REALLY interesting is my accountant told me the other day how many companies fall victim to this, and in my personal case, PaymentServe have taken over 500 quid in charges since December over PCI compliance (one for an account they set up without my permission and are blatantly refusing to refund me for).

Yep the Card Schemes are NOW ENFORCING the PCI Data Security Standard, pre Jan 2012 it was optional for SME's not any more. The problem is that it requires a reasonable level of IT skills to complete the SAQ's which themselves are graded as to the way you use cardholder data.

All Merchant Account providers have warned their Merchants, and some listened some did not, as to available information out there, there is a whole industry now providing PCI Compliance training for those who have the staff to skill up, or just Google and there is plenty of self Help material out there as well.

I will be blunt sticking your head in the sand and hoping it wont affect you (if you take card payments) just aint gonna happen..

Do nothing you will get Fined.

Hope this helps..
 
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bowenpies

Free Member
Jun 20, 2013
1
0
I think your title should be ripped of first data !! these are pure crooks!!! we are having a problem at the moment we have been with them 18 months and which to terminate as the machine never works and we haven't even used it for well over couple of months when trying to sort this out we are told there is a restocking fee of £190 when in the contract it states no fee is charged after 18 months , also if you are anything to do with first data you need to have a serious chat with the employee jamie as his attitude is so bad he makes your feel stupid doesn't listen and its his way or no way i would never ever recommend these
 
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L

LMDServicesUK

Hello

I am sorry to hear you are having issues with FDMS, please feel free to PM me more information about your situation and I will see if we as PaymentSense can step in and assist you at all, assuming you signed up for your service through PaymentSense and not FDMS directly ?

If you genuinely have been unable to use your terminal due to faults, it should have been swapped out for you at no cost to yourself ?

Have you raised a case with the PaymentSense Customer Services team on 020 8962 5445 ?

However re the restocking fee, this is separate to the leasing agreement which you can terminate without further charge if you are a Sole Trader and have completed 18 months of your agreement. The restocking Fee is clearly advised within the agreement and will always be enforced by FDGL if you choose to terminate your agreement early. This is the same for all leasing agreements for card terminal providers, and not just FDMS.

Hope this helps

Rgds

Mark
 
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Wish I had done my home work and read this and the other posts on the internet about paymentSenses and First Direct before signing up.

I was told a lot of things verbally in the phone calls I had from their sales representative who persuaded me to signed up nearly 3 years ago, and rather foolishly nether questioned the various discrepancies in the reams of paperwork I received back and what I had been told although I did question the fact that I was told that the contract was for only 18 months, I was fobbed off with do not worry that was for... you are a sole trader and covered by the consumer credit legislation which would allow me to exit after 18 months.

I had to fill out forms, all electronic signatory including direct debit, OK first month then get stung £20 a month for no direct debit... even though I had signed the forms electronically, I had to sign the direct debit form again and send it back to them.

Then came the PCI crap... £50 pound a month for none compliance, note now all the phone numbers given are 0845 numbers with the obligatory please hold while we transfer you to another department... told get in touch with the PCI help desk, seems now I am talking to a guy who sounds like in Mumbai, as much help as chocolate tea pot, can not explain why I should have to change all my passwords every 6 months and detail the fire wall on my computer... that was the first of pages of questions asked for PCI compliance... now all I had was a terminal with sim card in it, it was not connected to a computer, I do not do internet sales so as to this date no one can answer the relevance of these questions regarding my computer, again I just got passed department to department, maybe the first question should be is do you have a computer?

Every time I tried to cancel I was fobbed off and transferred to the PCI helpline, eventually late last year I dug my heals in and was told it was going to cost me about £700 to cancel even though I had been with them for over 2 years...

Finally January I get a letter confirming charges of £200+ to exit and send the machine back, I sent the machine back and...

Yes to date they are still taking rental payments, called on Monday by now I am wise to the 0845 scam and used a 0800 number only to be told I was through to the wrong department, at least when you use the 0800 number they did not keep me hanging on but promised me a call back that day, well it was today Wednesday I get that call back promised two days ago, only to be told they were still taking rental payments because I had not written back to accept the cancellation charges...

Now being told the guy who sold me the contract no longer works for them and I have nothing in writing, I have a five year lease agreement and Consumer Credit Act 1974 which allows you to exit the Lease after month 18 means nothing, and I am shafted...
 
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L

LMDServicesUK

Ignoring PCI as I have mentioned before is pretty silly and like not paying your HMRC bill will bite you in the end..

That said it does sound like PS have not done a great job in helping you resolve this issue, so I have escalated your case internally.

Please PM me your Merchant account number and postcode and I will ask someone from HO to contact you to try and resolve the issues you are now struggling with.

Mark
 
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