Apprentice pregnant after 8 weeks of employment

[KeyserSoze]

Hi,

We took on an apprentice around 8 weeks ago and have just found out that she is pregnant which must have occurred 2-4 weeks after starting with us.

Obviously from our point of view this is not ideal as this member of staff was taken on to ease the burden on the other overstretched staff members. We're a small team (9 people including apprentice) so are very concerned about what effect this might have on the business.

Can anyone shed any light on what our responsibilities are regarding this? What maternity we have to pay and how long we have to leave the job open for… Particularly considering this was a 1 year apprenticeship.

Thanks.

 

[Newchodge]

An apprentice should never be seen as a member of staff to ease the burden on the other overstretched staff members. An apprentice is not cheap labour.

Having said that, she will not be entitled to receive maternity pay from you because of her length of service. She will ne entitled to return after her maternity leave to complete the training which is supposed to be the point of her apprenticeship.

 

[KeyserSoze]

An apprentice should never be seen as a member of staff to ease the burden on the other overstretched staff members. An apprentice is not cheap labour.

Having said that, she will not be entitled to receive maternity pay from you because of her length of service. She will ne entitled to return after her maternity leave to complete the training which is supposed to be the point of her apprenticeship.

Thank you for the useful parts of your reply, not so much for the preaching and condescending undertones. I actually think it's you that's missed the point of apprenticeships.

Just to be clear, we took on this apprentice with the hope of it turning into a long term position that would be mutually beneficial for both the apprentice and ourselves. We pay well above the average apprenticeship wage and have already sent her on quite an expensive "extra" course to brush up on certain skills. It's a genuine learning opportunity with hands on training, in a small team, with decent prospects if someone was prepared to stick at it. It's certainly a good opportunity for someone who has no qualifications and experience.

To suggest that we've taken this person on merely for cheap labour is so far from the truth I find it offensive. That said, it's not purely an altruistic exercise. We're not a school or college dedicated solely to the training of others. An apprenticeship should be a mutually beneficial arrangement that involves us investing time and money in their training in exchange for a lower initial labour cost and a well trained future employee. Of course as a company grows it takes on new staff to spread the workload when current staff become too stretched. In my opinion that can include apprentices. Why else would anyone employ them if no new staff were needed?

 

[kulture]

Putting aside the reasons why you employ an apprentice, which is not what this thread is about, you have to support her and keep the position open so that she can return.

 

[KeyserSoze]

Having said that, she will not be entitled to receive maternity pay from you because of her length of service.

Also, is this correct? As I'm reading lots of conflicting info.

 

[KeyserSoze]

Putting aside the reasons why you employ an apprentice, which is not what this thread is about, you have to support her and keep the position open so that she can return.

I suppose being the evil and cyclical employer that I am, I'm predicting that they will not return after the maternity period. I also have to admit (rightly or wrongly) to not feeling very supportive, considering the amount of time this person has been with us.

Does anyone know how much maternity we need to pay, for how long and whether it's reclaimable.

Also, am I right in thinking that assuming the person was to return, they would be with us for 10 months initially, go on maternity leave for 52 weeks, then return for a further 2 months apprenticeship. Would that be correct?

 

[ffox]

Does anyone know how much maternity we need to pay, for how long and whether it's reclaimable.

Check out -
https://www.gov.uk/maternity-pay-leave/eligibility

I feel genuinely sorry for any small employer who faces this situation. However, you said -

Thank you for the useful parts of your reply, not so much for the preaching and condescending undertones. I actually think it's you that's missed the point of apprenticeships.

in response to the reply from Newchodge.

From the mid seventies one of my duties was recruitment and management of five apprentices per year for ten years. The apprenticeship was five years and no first or second year apprentice was ever allowed to undertake work unless under the direct supervision of a skilled operative. In year three and year four, if the apprentice was good enough, jobs could be allocated by the skilled operative for the apprentice to complete. The work was then inspected and verified by the skilled operative.
Apprentices are not there to

ease the burden on the other overstretched staff members

In fact a first or second year apprentice should actually increase the burden on other staff.
The reward is that after the training period you get (theoretically) what you have paid for by expending resources in training and mentorship. As Richard Branson has said - 'train them to a standard where they can leave and treat them well enough that they don't want to'.

Too many employers are 'gulled' into the belief that they are doing something wonderful by hosting modern apprenticeships. I'll be the first to admit that I come across many good 'techies' who have emerged from this system, but the story of abysmally low pay during the training, the low quality of the training, followed by rejoining the benefits queue after the subsidy to the employer ends is all too frequent.

 

[Simon.P]

reminds me of a place i used to do some work for..... lady starts work, few weeks later says not long before i finish, staff say you going on holiday then? no, i am having a baby!!!
turns out she was 6 months when they employed her, didn't show at all on interview and not allowed to ask anyway apparently?!

 

[MyAccountantOnline]

@KeyserSoze have you ever watched any of the HMRC webinars? They run a series of webinars to help employers. The next live webinar which may be particularly helpful (Statutory payments for births) is on 24 August. Have a look on the link here - you'll need to scroll down.

 

[ethical PR]

Also, is this correct? As I'm reading lots of conflicting info.

@Newchodge is an HR professional and (I believe former lawyer) and has always provided great advice on this forum on HR issues. If she is telling you this - I am sure it is correct. However feel free to contact ACAS or look on the gov.uk site to check.

I think the points she made in her first post to you were reasonable and unfortunately your response rather childish.

 

[KeyserSoze]

In fact a first or second year apprentice should actually increase the burden on other staff.
The reward is that after the training period you get (theoretically) what you have paid for by expending resources in training and mentorship. As Richard Branson has said - 'train them to a standard where they can leave and treat them well enough that they don't want to'

That's exactly my point. We take on the extra burden of training, mentorship and expending resources for (in this case) a year, then after the training period there is no benefit or reward.

 

[KeyserSoze]

@Newchodge is an HR professional and (I believe former lawyer) and has always provided great advice on this forum on HR issues. If she is telling you this - I am sure it is correct. However feel free to contact ACAS or look on the gov.uk site to check.

I think the points she made in her first post to you were reasonable and unfortunately your response rather childish.

I realise Newchodge may have provided great advice in other threads on the forum but I was merely responding to the post in this thread not their previous post history. Going on the info I've read I don't think Newchodge's advice is correct (although I'm happy to be corrected). I think our maternity pay obligations start on the first day of employment.

Regarding my rather childish response, I take offence at it being implied that I'm taking advantage of a young person for the main purpose of cheap labour when that is not the case.

To be honest I didn't realise I had to choose my words quite so carefully when asking for advice, but maybe I should have written the following...

"This member of staff was taken on to *eventually* ease the burden on the other overstretched staff members."

If you still have issue with this, maybe you can explain why a small employer should take on an apprentice if it wasn't because they wanted to end up with a useful member of staff?

 

[john1989]

https://www.gov.uk/employers-maternity-pay-leave/eligibility-and-proof-of-pregnancy

 

[Deleted member 59730]

If the rules are still the same maternity pay costs you nothing and the govt even pays you for passing it on.

Similar thing happened to me. Took on a young, fit football playing woman to take pressure off an older member of staff. 2 months later she got pregnant.

 

[UKSBD]

Having said that, she will not be entitled to receive maternity pay from you because of her length of service.

Why not?

 

[sirearl]

Similar thing happened to me. Took on a young, fit football playing woman to take pressure off an older member of staff. 2 months later she got pregnant.

I did not know one could get pregnant playing football.?

 

[Clare@ClarityTaxation]

Why not?

You have to be working for an employer for a certain length of time before they need to pay SMP. That doesn't mean they aren't entitled to payment, just that the employee has to claim direct from HMRC rather than through the employer.

 

[KeyserSoze]

You have to be working for an employer for a certain length of time before they need to pay SMP. That doesn't mean they aren't entitled to payment, just that the employee has to claim direct from HMRC rather than through the employer.

From what I've read, as long as the person got pregnant after they started working for us then we need to pay SMP. There is no length of time this does't apply. I've tried following the guidelines on the .gov site and counted back the weeks and by my calculations (which may well be wrong), they need to have been working for us from at least today onwards to be entitled to SMP. Obviously they're 8 weeks inside of that.

 

[Clare@ClarityTaxation]

Have you tried the calculator?

https://www.gov.uk/maternity-paternity-calculator

 

[ethical PR]

People can only comment on what you post. You said
"this member of staff was taken on to ease the burden on the other overstretched staff members"

It wasn't until a later post you explained further.

You then took umbrage at the responses you received. I didn't see anything preachy or condensing about the response you received.

Of course good employers take on apprentices because they want to end up with a useful member of staff who can grow with the business. Unscrupulous ones take them on a cheap labour.

Here's a link to the ACAS content on maternity pay. http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=1753

 

[UKSBD]

You have to be working for an employer for a certain length of time before they need to pay SMP. That doesn't mean they aren't entitled to payment, just that the employee has to claim direct from HMRC rather than through the employer.

Everywhere I have read says 26 weeks unless it is different for apprentices?

In the OP's case it sounds like she will have worked between 27 - 30 weeks

 

[ffox]

That's exactly my point. We take on the extra burden of training, mentorship and expending resources for (in this case) a year, then after the training period there is no benefit or reward.

Well, yes. In this case, if the employee does not return and finish the apprenticeship and continue to be an employee after the pregnancy, you will have lost. That's why I said that I feel a genuine sympathy for small businesses in your position. For most employers recruitment and training is a lottery, even after a decade of interviewing at least once and often twice weekly to fill ongoing vacancies my developed skills did not preclude me from sometimes appointing folk who didn't give a return on the investment.
SMP is not your principal worry. If it is due you will claim all or most of it back through PAYE. The main thing is the effort and resource you put into training the apprentice for no guaranteed return.
For this reason it would appear that you would have been better to have employed a more mature person, who could hit the ground running, to ease the workload on the other employees.

 

[KeyserSoze]

People can only comment on what you post. You said
"this member of staff was taken on to ease the burden on the other overstretched staff members"

It wasn't until a later post you explained further.

You then took umbrage at the responses you received. I didn't see anything preachy or condensing about the response you received.

I didn't ask for moral advice on apprenticeships, how I should view them, whether they should be seen as cheap labour or what the point of them was.

That's what I got though. In fact it bookended the reply, with some misinformation in the middle for good measure.

I then took umbrage at that response.
You then called my reply childish, I assume to antagonise me.

If you don't want to get down from your high horse and talk about the issues which are maternity pay and other maternity related obligations please feel free not to post.

 

[KeyserSoze]

For this reason it would appear that you would have been better to have employed a more mature person, who could hit the ground running, to ease the workload on the other employees.

You are probably correct. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

 

[kulture]

I didn't ask for moral advice on apprenticeships, how I should view them, whether they should be seen as cheap labour or what the point of them was.

That's what I got though. In fact it bookended the reply, with some misinformation in the middle for good measure.

I then took umbrage at that response.
You then called my reply childish, I assume to antagonise me.

If you don't want to get down from your high horse and talk about the issues which are maternity pay and other maternity related obligations please feel free not to post.

Just because you did not ask for moral advice does not stop people from giving it. Forums on the internet do not always provide the answers you want, nor in the way you like. Your attitude however seems to have resulted in the most knowledgeable person not returning to this thread. I suspect that if you continue with your rather abrasive response to people who you do not agree with you will get less replies.

 

[KeyserSoze]

Just because you did not ask for moral advice does not stop people from giving it.

It also doesn't stop me from pointing out that I didn't ask for it and defending our actions when being told we've done something wrong.

Forums on the internet do not always provide the answers you want, nor in the way you like.

Absolutely. Often people on the internet seem very keen to jump to incorrect negative conclusions without complete information. Perhaps I should have provided more info in my original post but I was trying to keep it brief and relevant to what I was asking.

At the end of the day we went into this situation with the best of intentions. We took on an 18 year old that didn't have a huge amount of immediate prospects. There aren't a lot of jobs around here (North East) and the plan was to really invest in this person for them and for us. Obviously this has now been brought into question.

I posted to ask what our obligations were regarding maternity so we can make 100% sure we fulfil them. I don't feel we have done anything wrong here.

Thank you to the people who posted relevant info.

 

[phonegrade]

She by modern law is entitled maternity leave and to come back in after but with leaving the EU things may be changing on workers rights but I think the UK is ahead of the game and will continue to be into the future


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