Amazon Fraud. 2 Empty packages this week.

[ryanmweb]

Hi Everyone,

I sell refurbished I Phones on amazon. I have came against 2 fraudelent claims this week.

1ST - Sold an I Phone 4 on 28th February the buyer complained that the item did not work. I advised them to return the item they declined and said it was too much hassle. They opened an A-Z Claim where i advised them to return the item again. They didn't response to the claim and Amazon updated the claim saying the claim was not granted on 18th March. Now on Wednesday amazon demanded a refund and on Thursday i got an recorded delivery package from them which was empty. They state the phone was in there.

2ND - Same item as above. Same problem the phone didn't work. I was returned another empty package and they state that the item was in there when they posted it.

At the moment amazon hasn't responded to my representations and no one can deal with it on the telephone. Under the DSR i have to get the items back to inspect them before i issue a refund. I haven't got them. What will amazon do ? Issue them a refund or take my word that the items are not in there?

I have found similar things on the internet that have occurred with paypal and they advise you to get a report from action fraud. Is this the same procedure with amazon ?

 

[greengecko]

Very complex case, depending on how these proceed.

Can you document weights of the returned items, this may be a useful in constructing a case should you need to make a claim against the individuals.

Edit : Have you recorded IMEI numbers?

 

[LianneF]

Just a thought but if they sent the parcels back to you via the postage office then the postage paid will be printed on the label. If they sent an empty box then postage will be low as the item is light, if they actually sent an Iphone in a box etc then this should be a lot more so you should be able to prove that they sent an empty box with a photo of the postage label and royal mails new prices?

 

[Magsite]

Defo sounds like fraud, and should be dealt with as such. As its online try http://www.actionfraud.police.uk/

If you've still got the imei number, then report it as stolen until this is resolved.

Might be worth from now on videoing you opening returned packaging.

 

[JDL9000]

Like someone said you should video opening every return you reveive, although the video could be faked, but it might help anyway. also report to the police.

 

[titanicuk]

Phone is always hard to sell, high rish and low margin.
Not sure about reporting to police, I did once and was 'advice' not to buy or sell on Internet, as it is not safe.

 

[TotallySport]

you'd be better using moneyclaim.gov than the police

 

[greengecko]

you'd be better using moneyclaim.gov than the police

Getting a crime ref number will however add some weight towards your claim, if this is the path you end up taking.

 

It is terrible, but it exists, and you are in a 'favoured' sector for this type of fraud. There are loads of Ebay sellers who have had the same trouble.

We sell Computers etc, and we've worked constantly to reduce the fraud, but I have to be honest with you - you'll never eradicate it completely, just make it more difficult and reduce it. I've reduced our percentage of fraud to a very small and manageable amount, but it requires constant checking.

You will find there are lots of places to report it, but very few who will actually do anything about it. You should continue to harass Amazon though, they (and the others) need to give sellers a little more protection, and enough harassing them might make them put a little more effort in.

It's a case of putting this one down to experience, by all means pursue it, but don't waste too much time that could be spent marketing to other avenues.

Check your own in-house procedures, ensure you perform all the necessary checks to prevent fraud, but expect to meet the odd one like you have, who will just blatantly steal from you in the knowledge nothing will ever happen to them for it.

I'd weight the box you were sent back, with and without a phone in it - then provide this information to Amazon and demand they hear your case properly. If you keep at it, you might get a satisfactory solution.

 

[Raw Rob]

Under the DSR i have to get the items back to inspect them before i issue a refund.

Unfortunately this isn't true. The DSR are weighted strongly in favour of the customer. If the customer cancels the order under the terms of the DSR, you have to give the refund whether you receive the goods back or not. If you don't receive the goods, then you can sue the customer to get the goods/your money back. (The regulations are stupid I know, but best to understand what the law says!)

 

[Merchant UK]

Also might not make a difference is the postage would be based on the weight of the empty box, what check the postage and see what weight it goes up to and then pack an iphone in with charger etc and weigh that, then check the postage for that, That could be your proof that the phone was never in there in the first place

 

[Sparx]

Also might not make a difference is the postage would be based on the weight of the empty box, what check the postage and see what weight it goes up to and then pack an iphone in with charger etc and weigh that, then check the postage for that, That could be your proof that the phone was never in there in the first place

Yeah I think about 4 people have already mentioned that..

 

[ryanmweb]

Contacted the police they recommend action fraud..

 

[Uimeas]

involve the police. and in the future take videos/pictures of sending the product in a good condition, and opening the product on return to show nothing is in there. I hope this works out well in the end and you get your money/phone back!

 

[ryanmweb]

As mentioned before - Contacted the police as the buyer states that the item was in the package. Me and the buyer have been relaying several emails via the Amazon email system but the buyer is replying from an Iphone. I wonder could it be mine. I have made the police aware but they said its in the hands of action fraud.

Amazon has now stated that the buyer is entitled to a refund under there agreement as the item was not as described apparently which i dispute even if they do not return the item so it doesn't matter if the box was empty.

I am now thinking to go along the lines of small claims court but who do i take?

Amazon? - i have read on forum posts that the Amazon agreement restricts you from doing so. Could this be an unfare contract term if i was to take them to smalls claims court?

The buyer? 1.for not insuring the item when posting as i could have claimed from royal mail if the item was lost or stolen? or 2.for not even putting the item in the package? Which one or both points?

Royal Mail? because it went missing in there postal system ?

 

[greengecko]

As mentioned before - Contacted the police as the buyer states that the item was in the package. Me and the buyer have been relaying several emails via the Amazon email system but the buyer is replying from an Iphone. I wonder could it be mine. I have made the police aware but they said its in the hands of action fraud.

Amazon has now stated that the buyer is entitled to a refund under there agreement as the item was not as described apparently which i dispute even if they do not return the item so it doesn't matter if the box was empty.

I am now thinking to go along the lines of small claims court but who do i take?

Amazon? - i have read on forum posts that the Amazon agreement restricts you from doing so. Could this be an unfare contract term if i was to take them to smalls claims court?

The buyer? 1.for not insuring the item when posting as i could have claimed from royal mail if the item was lost or stolen? or 2.for not even putting the item in the package? Which one or both points?

Royal Mail? because it went missing in there postal system ?

Depends, what is the weight given on the buyers receipt? If it is low such that the iPhone couldn't have possibly been posted, then against them.

Although thinking about it, they are responsible until the iPhone arrives to you. You'll get no where issuing a claim against Amazon.

 

[ryanmweb]

Depends, what is the weight given on the buyers receipt? If it is low such that the iPhone couldn't have possibly been posted, then against them.

Although thinking about it, they are responsible until the iPhone arrives to you. You'll get no where issuing a claim against Amazon.

I haven't got it with me at the moment but i think its nearly 1KG way to high even with packaging i think for the box they sent it in. Maybe a fake receipt? I've sent the copy of the receipt off with the royal mail claim just to claim a poxy £20 back.

I did say the same about its the buyer responsibility till it arrives back but i think on post #10 someone said it is not strictly true.

So its down to a claim between RM and the buyer !

 

[ryanmweb]

Unfortunately this isn't true. The DSR are weighted strongly in favour of the customer. If the customer cancels the order under the terms of the DSR, you have to give the refund whether you receive the goods back or not. If you don't receive the goods, then you can sue the customer to get the goods/your money back. (The regulations are stupid I know, but best to understand what the law says!)

So basically its worth my while taking the buyer to small claims?

 

[arcon5]

Do you have CCTV in your work. Perhaps this will show you opening the package and push the balance of probabilities in your favour if the buyer defends the claim?

 

[Worzel]

This is a terrible read.

Sadly all the advice you are receiving doesn't help. If you want my advice it is drive to the buyers house and get this sorted. Unprofessional, sure.. but you will NOT get your money or phone back.

Your "options"

Police. They already pushed you over to fraud, they really aren't up for getting involved with online issues unless it's pedo stuff.

Royal Mail. What exactly did they do wrong? they didn't break any contracts, they delivered the item and you signed for it. Forget that option.

Online fraud. They'll make a note of it and "get back to you" - unless it's some massive huge scam, they won't bother.

As for everybody saying about the "postage weight" - this is a scam think about it. PARCELS are flat rate, if you print a 30g parcel online you can put as 2kg and it will be the same price, it's not checked.

Also, at the post office, I'm sure the scammer could add a little hidden extra onto the scale whilst weighing it.

Small claims, you WILL end up worse off than you already are. They keep sucking extra bits of money for "the next step"

I really think you need to take a drive to these person(s) - were they in the same area for both scams?

 

[greengecko]

This is a terrible read.

Sadly all the advice you are receiving doesn't help. If you want my advice it is drive to the buyers house and get this sorted. Unprofessional, sure.. but you will NOT get your money or phone back.

Your "options"

Police. They already pushed you over to fraud, they really aren't up for getting involved with online issues unless it's pedo stuff.

Royal Mail. What exactly did they do wrong? they didn't break any contracts, they delivered the item and you signed for it. Forget that option.

Online fraud. They'll make a note of it and "get back to you" - unless it's some massive huge scam, they won't bother.

As for everybody saying about the "postage weight" - this is a scam think about it. PARCELS are flat rate, if you print a 30g parcel online you can put as 2kg and it will be the same price, it's not checked.

Also, at the post office, I'm sure the scammer could add a little hidden extra onto the scale whilst weighing it.

Small claims, you WILL end up worse off than you already are. They keep sucking extra bits of money for "the next step"

I really think you need to take a drive to these person(s) - were they in the same area for both scams?

I'm sorry, that advice is extremely poor advice, more so than what anyone else has given.

You drive to there house, I'm sure you can imagine the type of person that would pull such a scam and you're either going to be met with aggression or worse, or possibly the police being called.

Either way, you won't end up with your money or iPhone and when this does go to court, the fact you turned up at their house and there is possibly a police report against you for harassment or breach of the peace it's not going to look very good.

The reason everyone was going on about weight, was because if the buyer had posted it at a post office, the weight would be exact as they are weighed before being shipped. If he has done this online then obviously it is not an avenue you can go down - this will most likely end up at small claims court and judgement will be made on the balance of probability - everything you can do to prove you are credible will go in your favour.

 

[Worzel]

I'm sorry, that advice is extremely poor advice, more so than what anyone else has given.

You drive to there house, I'm sure you can imagine the type of person that would pull such a scam and you're either going to be met with aggression or worse, or possibly the police being called.

Either way, you won't end up with your money or iPhone and when this does go to court, the fact you turned up at their house and there is possibly a police report against you for harassment or breach of the peace it's not going to look very good.

The reason everyone was going on about weight, was because if the buyer had posted it at a post office, the weight would be exact as they are weighed before being shipped. If he has done this online then obviously it is not an avenue you can go down - this will most likely end up at small claims court and judgement will be made on the balance of probability - everything you can do to prove you are credible will go in your favour.

Poor advice? This seller has been stolen off. I don't care if it is online, in a pub, on a market. If somebody steals from me I will resolve it one way or the other.

Even advising to take this to court is terrible advice. Go ahead, take it to court.. see if the buyer even turns up, then watch the "judges" faces when you start talking about tracking numbers, amazon, parcel weight.

Good luck

Just noticed a thread about item weight that might illustrate my point a bit better

http://www.ukbusinessforums.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=294223

 

[greengecko]

Poor advice? This seller has been stolen off. I don't care if it is online, in a pub, on a market. If somebody steals from me I will resolve it one way or the other.

Even advising to take this to court is terrible advice. Go ahead, take it to court.. see if the buyer even turns up, then watch the "judges" faces when you start talking about tracking numbers, amazon, parcel weight.

Good luck

Just noticed a thread about item weight that might illustrate my point a bit better

http://www.ukbusinessforums.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=294223

Even it involved getting a criminal record in the process, or risk ending up in the local hospital?

Judges deal with far more complex issues, I'm sure they would be more than capable of dealing with this. If the buyer didn't show up a default judgement, in the majority of cases, would be issued.

Telling someone to grab pitchforks and turn up at someones house I fear won't end well.

 

[Worzel]

Even it involved getting a criminal record in the process, or risk ending up in the local hospital?

Judges deal with far more complex issues, I'm sure they would be more than capable of dealing with this. If the buyer didn't show up a default judgement, in the majority of cases, would be issued.

Telling someone to grab pitchforks and turn up at someones house I fear won't end well.

I'm not saying go to the house with a petrol bomb. Just confront the scumbag! You would be amazed the type of people who do such scams. It's like on eBay, I can have the rudest message demanding freebies or an item hasn't turned up.. I ring the person up and it's the most timid little mouse who answers, I've resolved so many issues over the phone (no, NOT kicking off, just voice to voice changes alot) - which is why I suggest go to this house and confront the person..

This case would never make court, and if you managed to get it there you would be much worse off than a few iphones!

The buyer will just deny all knowledge and possibly take the guy to court for some kind of harassment causing stress or some crap..

 

[gibby]

Sorry to hear your having this hassle. For the future I would suggest expensive items need to be collected by a courier of your choice, as the item will be weighed. I have heard of cases of stones being sent back, to leep the weight right.

I would keep on with the police as they can track the phone if being used.
A friend had an I phone stolen and it was tracked to an address and was recovered. I didnt think they would do this but they caught the guy who claimed he bought it online.
The police/fraud dept may be slow but at least it records the address as its more than likely they have done this to others.

I would avoid small claims as its been a nightmare everytime we have used it.
You have to prove they didn't send it back. If you do win the thief can claim they have no money and then you need to pay someone to verify the address and pay for a debt collector etc. You will have to travel to the court local to the customer too.

If you do have a copy of the postage cost/stamp then it might help you to win but make sure you can prove the weight of the phone and have the published postage rates.

This is the issue with selling on Amazon and Ebay. They don't look after the sellers.

Hope you get it sorted.