am i dealing with a serial fraudster?

[garth_vader]

Hi

I have joined because i found a post with a similar query. I am currently owed a substantial amount of money from a company which can be found here:
companycheck DOT co DOT uk/director/903986276/MR-JASON-ALEXANDER-BRISCOE/summary

My concern is that in looking into this company (it seemed fine at first glance) it appears there are 5 members of a family (at least all have the same last name) who have incorporated around 60 companies between them since 1995, all of which have either dissolved before filing their accounts, or have declared £1 as their accounts across the board.

Theres lots of switching companies between them, and it all seems slightly irregular. not to say it isnt above board or legal, it just has me concerned looking at it on paper.

Is there any way to check if there are any debts associated to the companies that have been dissolved?
I am a young businessman and am not entirely sure on how to go about this sort of thing, but from looking at other posts on this forum I am worried this family are starting limited companies accruing debt in their name, then dissolving them.

many thanks in advance for any advice given, and apologies in advance for the link - please let me know if it's an issue and I'll remove it.

Best
Garth

 

[dotcomdude]

My concern is that in looking into this company (it seemed fine at first glance) it appears there are 5 members of a family (at least all have the same last name) who have incorporated around 60 companies between them since 1995, all of which have either dissolved before filing their accounts, or have declared £1 as their accounts across the board.

This would definitely set my alarm bells ringing!

Are you prepared to say roughly how much they owe you? This would help to identify the next steps...

 

[LucyTex]

This would definitely set my alarm bells ringing!

Are you prepared to say roughly how much they owe you? This would help to identify the next steps...

Agreed!

 

[garth_vader]

it's in the region of £9,000
i'll also need to apply to get the money back, and pay for legal services, unless i can represent myself (looking into if i'm capable of doing that myself now).

I'm concerned he might stand up in court and say he's a limited company with £1gbp turnover, and slide out of it that way.

I'm also concerned he owns several properties he collects rent from, and I'm now seeing that none of that rent is going through Briscoe Estates LTD as was claimed.
Is it possible he's collecting that rent as a sole trader/self employed landlord?
or is it possible he is just not declaring that income at all?

 

[garth_vader]

firstly, is this type of "web" of shelve companies between a family odd? none of them have filed income. so it all seems they're dormant companies, between 5 family members, over 25 years.
in my mind im trying to justify that maybe theyre just starting business ventures that havent been sucessful.

but the fact that the company that im dealing with isn't the permanent company which has been running since 90's, and is a different company that has different people within the family coming and going as director/different secretarys makes me think that maybe they're just loading up on debt in the name of one campany while "briscoe estates" actually owns the properties...

is that possible?
whole thing just seems odd, and it doesnt look like im being paid any time soon...

 

[dotcomdude]

If they have registered 60 companies in just over 20 years, and most of them have been dissolved then I’d guess that they were up to something.

I’d also guess that many small businesses wouldn’t pursue small debts at all [through the courts], so there will be no trace of them.

Can you make enquiries local to them, to see if they’re known for anything?

 

[garth_vader]

i could do that i think. how would i go about that, do you think?

speak to a chamber of commerce?
speak to the business centers the company's were registered at?

 

[billybob99]

makes me think that maybe they're just loading up on debt in the name of one campany while "briscoe estates" actually owns the properties...

Looking here, it says the company is not trading and is dormant?

 

[Newchodge]

You may want to start at the beginning. Specifically who owes you money and for what?

 

[garth_vader]

it does seem odd. i thought i read there were two active companies the rest had been dissolved.
I'm owed money for plastering work, plumbing work, decorating work etc done to the properties.
I paid the trades-men and he now owes me the money for their work, and other facilities work carried out, and some small administration fees for organising the work.
either way i'm out of pocket for paying people to do work on his properties.
he said money is an issue and he will pay me as soon as he has it. then i found the weird companys in his and his families name.
i just want to know if there is a genuine reason for doing this? maybe i am just being paranoid? and he's just having genuine trouble paying?
it's been a few months now

i havent done a land reg check, but should i do that and see if the properties are registered in his name?

 

[billybob99]

it does seem odd. i thought i read there were two active companies the rest had been dissolved.
I'm owed money for plastering work, plumbing work, decorating work etc done to the properties.
I paid the trades-men and he now owes me the money for their work, and other facilities work carried out, and some small administration fees for organising the work.
either way i'm out of pocket for paying people to do work on his properties.
he said money is an issue and he will pay me as soon as he has it. then i found the weird companys in his and his families name.
i just want to know if there is a genuine reason for doing this? maybe i am just being paranoid? and he's just having genuine trouble paying?
it's been a few months now

i havent done a land reg check, but should i do that and see if the properties are registered in his name?

Was going to ask how long has it been, but since you've mentioned its been a few months, that is taking the piste.

You're not a credit facility. I would be suspicious as well. And its not exactly something you can just go and take back, like physical goods.

You should consider taking a deposit in future, and think about arranging milestone payments.

 

[Newchodge]

I suggest you start the legal recovery process. I would not worry about whether he has multiple businesses, is a serial fraudster or anything else. You need to worry about getting paid and putting proper credit control procedures in place for the future.

 

[garth_vader]

I suggest you start the legal recovery process. I would not worry about whether he has multiple businesses, is a serial fraudster or anything else. You need to worry about getting paid and putting proper credit control procedures in place for the future.

thats good advice i think. but his reasons for not paying seem genuine, and he's always communicative.
what i'd like to do is find out if this is in my immagination, and im being paranoid, or if he's done this before to other people.

if people are pursuing the other dissolved companies for money, or if they dissolved owing money, how would i find that out?

 

[Newchodge]

thats good advice i think. but his reasons for not paying seem genuine, and he's always communicative.

Sounds like any half way competent conman.

what i'd like to do is find out if this is in my immagination, and im being paranoid, or if he's done this before to other people.

Why? what possible difference does it make. He owes you money, he hasn't paid for months. Get on with recovering your money.

if people are pursuing the other dissolved companies for money, or if they dissolved owing money, how would i find that out?

No one can pursue a dissolved company for money. If they were dissolved owing money you would have to research through companies house.

But why bother? Why do you think it makes any difference?

 

[billybob99]

Sounds like any half way competent conman.

Why? what possible difference does it make. He owes you money, he hasn't paid for months. Get on with recovering your money.


No one can pursue a dissolved company for money. If they were dissolved owing money you would have to research through companies house.

But why bother? Why do you think it makes any difference?

Faultless advise, for free at this time of night.

I think you are trying to convince yourself you will be paid, and you don't want to hurt anyone's feelings by asking for money.

You want to get your money and not work with this geezer again.

 

[garth_vader]

well it's the difference between going along with the time frame he's put forward (wait one more month and be paid in full)

or start proceedings right away

i appreciate everyone is saying, dont deal with him again, get your money back, etc - but from where im sitting it feels a little overwhelming and a bit daunting



i'd rather avoid proceedings (obviously)
but if theres clear evidence he's just dissolving companies to get out of paying for his debts then i will report him and proceed straight away - how can i check if he's doing this?

is there no kind of credit check i can do on his former companies to see if anyone else had the same sort of issue?
if not maybe he's just not liquid atm and will pay me in a month?

 

[billybob99]

well it's the difference between going along with the time frame he's put forward (wait one more month and be paid in full)

or start proceedings right away

i appreciate everyone is saying, dont deal with him again, get your money back, etc - but from where im sitting it feels a little overwhelming and a bit daunting



i'd rather avoid proceedings (obviously)
but if theres clear evidence he's just dissolving companies to get out of paying for his debts then i will report him and proceed straight away - how can i check if he's doing this?

is there no kind of credit check i can do on his former companies to see if anyone else had the same sort of issue?
if not maybe he's just not liquid atm and will pay me in a month?

You're just lulling yourself into a false sense of security mate.

Either you need to get on the blower with this geezer or go and see him face to face.

Him not being liquid isn't really your problem. Can you tell British Gas or Virgin Media sorry I'm not liquid right now?

Didn't you agree when you would be paid when you started working with him?

 

[Newchodge]

i will report him and proceed straight away

Report him to who, about what?

 

[garth_vader]

You're just lulling yourself into a false sense of security mate.

Either you need to get on the blower with this geezer or go and see him face to face.

Him not being liquid isn't really your problem. Can you tell British Gas or Virgin Media sorry I'm not liquid right now?

Didn't you agree when you would be paid when you started working with him?

im not lying to myself.
i've accepted i might have lost the money.


what im more interested in is he told me he'd been running recruitment companies for years and making a killing off it.
now hindsight being 20-20 and looking at the companies he's been running: it looks like he's spent the last 25 years running recruitment companies to act as agents, hiring staff for work, being paid, then not paying the staff on their wages to make a profit - and all these companies seem to be dormant shelf companies he hasn't filed accounts for.

i can take him directly to court as i know who he is, but what i'm more concerned about at this point, is the paperwork looks like he's spent the last 25 years running phoney companies scamming hard-working people out of their wages and not paying tax.
if this is the case it will make me taking him to court and getting my money back very cut and dry.
hence why i'd like some evidence before filing proceedings against him.

so honestly, i appreciate everyone's concern for me - but i'm more interested in finding out a way to work out if my assumption about this dirtbag is true, and reporting him to HMRC, then taking him to court to get my cash.

 

[garth_vader]

Report him to who, about what?

surely if hes been starting companies, racking up debts and not paying staff, not paying tax on earnings then dissolving the company there's someone i can report him to?

that doesn't seem ethical or legal does it?

 

[Mr D]

surely if hes been starting companies, racking up debts and not paying staff, not paying tax on earnings then dissolving the company there's someone i can report him to?

that doesn't seem ethical or legal does it?

If the company is a member of a trade body you could report the company to that.
Probably nothing done though.

Plenty of companies are not licensed by someone, not controlled by an overarching body.

Now if you needed to have the director's conduct relating to the company investigated when chasing your debt you could pay to wind the company up. A few grand extra cost to you. And quite possibly chuck more money after money you cannot recover. It would mean a report is written on the director of the company, it does not mean they get any penalties or are charged with anything - you do not know they have done anything illegal.

In future do not lend money to these kind of businesses and tighten up your credit control. Or have the same problem repeated.

Ethical? Was there a specific ethics clause in your contract with him?

Legal? Quite possibly - money troubles do not always shut down a business immediately. He may even be sincere at the time he tells you to wait a month.

 

[Newchodge]

surely if hes been starting companies, racking up debts and not paying staff, not paying tax on earnings then dissolving the company there's someone i can report him to?

that doesn't seem ethical or legal does it?

Doesn't seem ethical, doesn't seem moral, but it appears to be entirely legal.

If you want to change that, start with your MP

 

[JEREMY HAWKE]

Having lost a whole fortune during the past to company closers It may be the best policy not to offer credit (too late now)
People on here think I am nuts but we demand payment at the point of booking as we no longer need any bad debts
Don't offer any credit if you don't want to get stung

One of my biggest competitors has just gone bust due to bad debt . We are still here it works

 

[dotcomdude]

i could do that i think. how would i go about that, do you think?
speak to a chamber of commerce?
speak to the business centers the company's were registered at?

If the business centres acted as the registered office then you might get an idea from them whether this is a recurring thing with these people.

If they are doing this on any scale there ought to be some buzz about it.

I was in the Police until 13 years ago, and we would look at something like this in CID, but I’d guess it would be much harder to get them interested now. Still, if it’s a course of conduct aimed at repeatedly obtaining goods and services without paying for them, it’s going to be an offence.

 

[Mark T Jones]

As others have pointed out, you are putting energy into the wrong thing

Your number 1 priority is to recover your money

1. Call, pointing out that you are a plasterer not a money lender. Payment is overdue, please pay now

2 14 day letter before action

3 MCOL.

No excuses, no delays

Your second priority is to avoid it happening again ideally with payment I. Advance, or at least a deposit. Failing that, a strict credit checking policy before you lend your customers money.

 

[Mark Laurie]

I used to work for Riskdisk (now Experian Business Express) and the credit reports available on their website https://www.businessexpress-uk.com/ have information on CCJs, payment days beyond term and also feedback from other suppliers to the business. Last time I looked the cost was about £300 a year. May be worth checking out if you want background info.

 

[garth_vader]

I used to work for Riskdisk (now Experian Business Express) and the credit reports available on their website ADDRESS OF EXPERIAN have information on CCJs, payment days beyond term and also feedback from other suppliers to the business. Last time I looked the cost was about £300 a year. May be worth checking out if you want background info.

thanks ML, it might be worth me doing this just to find out what is going on..

i mean, he's been accepting payments for properties on behalf of the 'briscoe estates ltd' in the form of rent, and has been doing so for "15 years" he told me.
So what is the situation with it being a 'dormant' company, and only declaring accounts of £1GBP?

I mentioned to him today i'd been posting on an online forum naming his business, and outlining the issues that i'd had and he nearly went spare. lots of red flags for me there - clearly doesn't want to be named and shamed or attract attention to his business - although i dont suppose anyone would.
he did seem much more keen in arranging to pay me back though.
so swings and roundabouts.

Hopefully he pays me back, the credit check comes back fine on all the companies, and this just was a case of a businessman struggling to keep the cheques from bouncing and pay a balance.
will keep everyone updated.

thanks for the great help from everybody thus far, sorry if i havent replied directly to a post, i have tried to listen and take on board everyones posts (even if it hasn't seemed like i have! :] )

 

[Mr D]

Then when you have your money may be worth a little letter to HMRC.

 

[MikeCC]

Just make sure that your invoices have been correctly directed to an active company and that it is still active when you file court application. The company name must be precisely correct. He may try to claim the work was done for a different company. Were the quotes also given to the same company?

 

[Noah]

Hopefully he pays me back, the credit check comes back fine on all the companies, and this just was a case of a businessman struggling to keep the cheques from bouncing and pay a balance.

Ha ha ha no.

Continue with action as outlined above :

1. Call, pointing out that you are a plasterer not a money lender. Payment is overdue, please pay now

2 14 day letter before action

3 MCOL.

No excuses, no delays

 

[Ian J]

Then when you have your money may be worth a little letter to HMRC.

If as hoped the customer intends to pay him back after reading this thread your above suggestion could well have scotched that idea

 

[Mr D]

If as hoped the customer intends to pay him back after reading this thread your above suggestion could well have scotched that idea

And it may have scotched the same thing happening to others in the future.
Which is better?

 

[Ian J]

And it may have scotched the same thing happening to others in the future.
Which is better?

You're obviously using the greater good argument which is fine except that people come to this forum looking for help with their problems

 

[Mr D]

You're obviously using the greater good argument which is fine except that people come to this forum looking for help with their problems

And if the other person isn't reading the thread then it gives the best overall result.

Do you honestly only give advice that is OK for other parties to the OP's problems to read?

 

[The Byre]

The title of this thread was -

am I dealing with a serial fraudster?

and IMO @garth_vader immediately answered his own question, with his opening statement -

My concern is that in looking into this company (it seemed fine at first glance) it appears there are 5 members of a family (at least all have the same last name) who have incorporated around 60 companies between them since 1995, all of which have either dissolved before filing their accounts, or have declared £1 as their accounts across the board.

That's 60, six-zero companies in about 20 years, or three-a-year and no doubt each one running up debts and then going 'Phutt!'

I learnt very early on in business, that the very first time someone or some company shows the slightest sign of not being an instant payer of their debts, to not deal with them at all.

In today's world, you can instantly find out if someone has done a 'Spongebob' and showed their creditors the old white-eared-elephant. You instantly see dead and dissolved companies and a credit report is just a click away and is available for an extremely modest fee. You can see any and every company that some delinquent director was involved with and you can even see what other companies share their address or share directors and/or owners.

If you have one, just one 'phoenixed' company to your credit, one 'Spongebob', one failed enterprise that did not honour all its debts, if there is a record of dissolved companies listed against your name, we will not buy from you, we will not sell to you, we will not commission you or accept a commission from you.

That is how you stay away from trouble!

 

[Mr D]

The title of this thread was -

and IMO @garth_vader immediately answered his own question, with his opening statement -

That's 60, six-zero companies in about 20 years, or three-a-year and no doubt each one running up debts and then going 'Phutt!'

I learnt very early on in business, that the very first time someone or some company shows the slightest sign of not being an instant payer of their debts, to not deal with them at all.

In today's world, you can instantly find out if someone has done a 'Spongebob' and showed their creditors the old white-eared-elephant. You instantly see dead and dissolved companies and a credit report is just a click away and is available for an extremely modest fee. You can see any and every company that some delinquent director was involved with and you can even see what other companies share their address or share directors and/or owners.

If you have one, just one 'phoenixed' company to your credit, one 'Spongebob', one failed enterprise that did not honour all its debts, if there is a record of dissolved companies listed against your name, we will not buy from you, we will not sell to you, we will not commission you or accept a commission from you.

That is how you stay away from trouble!

And some people set up a company or multiple companies to do something then later change their mind. Resulting in dissolved companies.
Perhaps unlikely the case in this instance, not impossible.

As someone who has dissolved a company owing money, and has since got credit from some of those same suppliers, I still suggest to people that they not lend money to companies if they have any concerns.
In this instance looking at the company situation may have caused a different credit facility to be granted or no money to be lent.

 

[Lisa Thomas]

I haven't read all the replies so apologies if I am missing something but you should be able to tell from Companies House whether the Companies were Liquidated and then from the Statement of Affairs/Liquidators reports the list of creditors and level of debts etc left behind.

 

[Lisa Thomas]

You may also want to have a look here and talk to the Insolvency services:

https://www.gov.uk/complain-about-a-limited-company

https://www.gov.uk/search-the-register-of-disqualified-company-directors

 

[Noah]

If you have one, just one 'phoenixed' company to your credit, one 'Spongebob', one failed enterprise that did not honour all its debts, if there is a record of dissolved companies listed against your name, we will not buy from you, we will not sell to you, we will not commission you or accept a commission from you.

One supplier we were considering using was telling me about an early lesson he received when he made some very expensive kit for a customer, who then deliberately withheld payment until he went bust and therefore customer had possession of kit without having to pay much for it. When he re-started his business, he managed to cut a deal with some suppliers to pay them additional cash on top of order invoices until he had cleared earlier debt.

Now this is just one side of the story, of course, and I'm not suggesting this anecdote should reduce one's wariness in such situations, but it does illustrate that life is complicated and there are indeed several ways to skin a cat.

 

[Ian J]

Hi

My concern is that in looking into this company (it seemed fine at first glance) it appears there are 5 members of a family (at least all have the same last name) who have incorporated around 60 companies between them since 1995, all of which have either dissolved before filing their accounts, or have declared £1 as their accounts across the board.

what im more interested in is he told me he'd been running recruitment companies for years and making a killing off it.
now hindsight being 20-20 and looking at the companies he's been running: it looks like he's spent the last 25 years running recruitment companies to act as agents, hiring staff for work, being paid, then not paying the staff on their wages to make a profit - and all these companies seem to be dormant shelf companies he hasn't filed accounts for.

How sure are you that your research is correct?

Briscoe Estates is a dormant company with no assets and has apparently never traded.

I have also found one recruitment company (now dissolved) that never seemed to trade in a big way but no sign of these 60 other companies