Am I being discriminatory?

[bwglaw]

In this case yes, as the nearest public transport is a bus stop a mile away. There is no pavement between the bus stop and the business park where BL is located as it's out of the way, so I'd be forced to walk along a busy road.

...but does your condition affect you from walking some distance?

Anyway, who am I to question you on this....it is going off-topic I think and discrimination / disability is always a sensitive area. I hope you don't think I was prying but if you would like advice in future just fire me an email.


Jonathan

 

Yes it does, because my seizures are uncontrolled - I don't get warnings, so having to walk along a busy road that has no pavements puts my life at risk. I'm quite happy to walk a mile, I walk a lot around Chester where I live. But if there are no pavements I've got no protection from being hit by a car if a seizure strikes.

 

[bwglaw]

It does appear to be reasonable so to avoid putting yourself at risk.

What was I saying earlier that it is not all so obvious. Thats why I enjoy discrimination law because everyone has to be approached differently since we are all different

Jonathan

 

Indeed Jonathan. It's been an interesting discussion.

Apologies to Claire for wandering off topic!

 

[Peter Jolley]

Pete, Business Link is a government-funded service to help people setting up businesses! So, yes, I expect equality of access to that advice and information. I pay taxes and I'm self-employed and BL are required by law to provide reasonable adjustments - that includes (according to the Disability Rights Commission) offering to collect me from somewhere convenient if they are located in an out-of-the-way place.

But you have got access to their resources, they have a very comprehensive web site and provide training all over th country.

As I already said, it's rarely possible to get a lift during working hours. And do you have any idea how much cabs cost? I get Disability Living Allowance and less than half of that is for my mobility needs - two cabs in Warrington to Business Link and back to the train station would use up my entire allowance for the week.

Surely you should have business expenses that cover your travel, this is work related after all. You should not use your living allownace for business?

Or should I just let my mobility needs eat into any profits I'm making? Get real.

Yes, these profits should be used in the course of any business. Remember, profit and wages are two different things.

I hope you never have a disability Pete - if you did, you would see just how much society is geared towards the abled and by how much the disabled are excluded. That is why the DDA was brought in - to make sure we are not left out just because we have disabilities.

You should never assume. I had to leave my job (fire fighter) becuase of illness.

Plaintext, I am not having a go at you I just feel that we can't as a socitey
please all the people all of the time.

 

[bwglaw]

Just a thought Plaintext. Have you contacted Jobcentre Plus about the Access to Work Scheme as they offer grants towards adjustments for disabled people to enable them to carry out their job.

If you need the details just let me know and I will post or PM to you

Jonathan

 

Pete - My local Business Link's facilities are not all available online, such as the business library for research purposes - you have to visit that in person. Ditto training facilities - BL Cheshire doesn't offer training anywhere in the county except at its own premises. If I can't get there, I'm excluded. So I don't have access to all their facilities.

Business expenses - I'm home-based so I don't have much travel. If I do, of course it goes into the accounts as such. But I bet the IR would have something to say if my business travel claim suddenly shot up and I can't afford the cost of an IR investigation. They can run into thousands.

And I agree we can't please all the people all the time. I don't expect, for example, a country house hotel to collect me if I want to visit. I just don't go to such places in my free time because of the access issues. I go to places I can access instead. But when it comes to accessing government-funded facilities for business, I don't think it's too much to ask for equality. It's not PC gone mad, it's just fairness.

It did feel like you were having a go at me in your earlier post because you were suggesting I wanted everything handed to me on a plate, which is not the case. I'm very independent and I hate having to ask for help, even though I don't need it very often.

 

Just a thought Plaintext. Have you contacted Jobcentre Plus about the Access to Work Scheme as they offer grants towards adjustments for disabled people to enable them to carry out their job.

If you need the details just let me know and I will post or PM to you

Jonathan

Access to Work doesn't really apply to me. I know quite a few people with epilepsy who use it to cover cab fares to and from work because they lost their driving licence. I don't need adjustments at home, where I work. And I rarely work outside the home. I'm not sure I would qualify for any help but Iwill look into again.

 

[bwglaw]

I work from home and I get funding to cover when I am in meetings etc. You could put an application in in the event you need it for attending training events, meetings etc.

I knew someone who had same condition and he relied on his 70 year old father to drop him off at work each day!

Glad you know about it anyway.

Jonathan

 

Thanks Jonathan, that's really useful as I didn't know I could apply for covering meetings and events outside the home.

 

[Peter Jolley]

I work from home and I get funding to cover when I am in meetings etc. You could put an application in in the event you need it for attending training events, meetings etc.

Jonathan, do you mind me asking why you claim funding?

The reason I ask is that you and your business interests seem to be very successful. So why claim funding.

I am all for providing assistance (cash) to those who require it but are you claiming just because you can?

Pete

 

[bwglaw]

Jonathan, do you mind me asking why you claim funding?

The reason I ask is that you and your business interests seem to be very successful. So why claim funding.

I am all for providing assistance (cash) to those who require it but are you claiming just because you can?

Pete

Not sure how to construe the above statement. I get funding to meet the cost of a Palantypist. When I am in Court, meetings etc I sometimes have difficulty hearing people so it is all typed verbatim on a laptop for me. It is not funding for the business per se.

I also use it for my professional assessment for MCIPD when I attend workshops as well as other CPD

Jonathan

 

[Peter Jolley]

I work from home and I get funding to cover when I am in meetings etc.

Jonathan,

I was responding to the above quote. It read to me that you receive funding (allowances) for travel to meetings. Sorry if I interpreted it wrong. The reason is that you do or will very soon be driving a merc (not short of money).

My point is that I do not believe that we should claim for everything that we might be entitled too if we are in a fortunate position to be successful.

IMHO I believe that allowances are for those that need it and not necessarily those who can claim for it.

So what I am trying to say is, if I was a successful businessman and say I was deaf, would you think it was ok for me to claim what I was entitled too from the state? Or should I fund what I require myself, which would allow then for more money in the kitty for less unfortunate.

Pete.

 

[Pebble Communications]

I would say that there is no ethical problem with that. The more successful you are, the more tax you pay into the system to provide these services. I don't think anyone should feel guilty for claiming something they are entitled to.

 

I agree, Fiona. I'm self-employed and make a reasonable living but I also claim Disability Living Allowance because I am entitled to it. I am registered disabled and meet the qualifications for it. I don't receive the highest level of DLA, but I get a care component and a mobility component. DLA is not means-tested and applies equally to the employed and the unemployed. I pay enough taxes and have done over the years.

 

[Peter Jolley]

I am not on about feeling guilty about what we can and cannot claim for. What I am on about, is, is it right to claim for everything we are entitled too if we can already afford it?

As I have already stated, by not claiming for everything (if we can fund it ourself) allows funds/services to be distributed to those who need it more.

Just because I pay more in (taxes) doesn’t justify me to claim what I can?

I am sure you are aware that the old are living longer and the young are not conceiving as many children. So, there will soon be more people not working than there are working. Who will pay for this? Us. Which brings me back to my point.

By not claiming everything allows funds/services to be distributed to those who need it more.

Pete

 

[bwglaw]

Pete, you obviously have little experience in this subject. I don't care what other people think. I care what they think of the service we provide them.

The funding pays for the salary of the palantypist. Without the palantypist I cannot do my job and in turn cannot provide a service. I employ other staff and have other Directors who all contribute to the delivery of good service.

You refer to the Merc. That is through my hard work, not funding from this! This is funded by the good service we provide and it is not only limited to legal services which I manage.

I am offended by your insinuations and lack of knowledge. In any event, you are not entitled to question my needs on the basis that you do not know me or my circumstances and I do not have to justify anything to you.

 

[Peter Jolley]

I am offended by your insinuations and lack of knowledge. In any event, you are not entitled to question my needs on the basis that you do not know me or my circumstances and I do not have to justify anything to you.

I was not questioning your needs, read the rest of my posts in this thread, I was merely asking questions. I am also just trying to improve my knowledge of this discussion.
Those who do not ask questions will never be in the know!

You refer to the Merc. That is through my hard work, not funding from this! This is funded by the good service we provide and it is not only limited to legal services which I manage.

Good, I am sure you and your team work very hard and reap the rewards for this effort. What I actually said was (with an apology), “I was responding to the above quote. It read to me that you receive funding (allowances) for travel to meetings. Sorry if I interpreted it wrong”.

I do not have to justify anything to you.

I said “Jonathan, do you mind me asking why you claim funding?

The reason I ask is that you and your business interests seem to be very successful. So why claim funding”.

I did not ask you to justify anything, you could have just said no, p£$$ off. I think do you mind as an opening line says it all.

Look you may be right, I may have little knowledge of this in your opinion, but as I have already said, without discussion (questions) how can we learn.

But please read all of my posts and you might see where I am coming from.

Pete

 

[bwglaw]

You mention an 'allowance' - in fact it is not an allowance per se but a reimbursement. I do not see or use any of the money.

I am afraid your posts are not read in the way you intended as you do question whether it is right to claim something that we are entitled to etc and then you go on to mention my intention to buy a Merc. This point is directed at me and not worded as a general point.

Your posts are not merely put in the manner to acquire knowledge because your posts are giving personal opinions, which appear to be directed at me. There is a difference. If you do not know enough about the person or about the funding then it is likely your comments will offend

As I have stated, and I reiterate, it is an reimbursement that meets the cost of any reasonable adjustments. The company even meets some of the cost.

Whether someone should claim something they are entitled to is a person decision and should always be respected. I pay thousands a month in taxes! I would agree if someone is fraudulently claiming something they are not entitled to. If you do not like it then you know who to vote at next election!

 

[bwglaw]

So what I am trying to say is, if I was a successful businessman and say I was deaf, would you think it was ok for me to claim what I was entitled too from the state? Or should I fund what I require myself, which would allow then for more money in the kitty for less unfortunate.

Pete.

As an example of your posts, this is one what I construe to be rather offensive, which is giving personal opinion of my situation rather than trying to become more knowledgable of the scheme generally.

You insinuate that I am not in need and not part of the 'less unfortunate' - do you know me?, have you met me? You will be indeed surprised!

 

[Peter Jolley]

No No No, I was asking a question.

You said, "As an example of your posts, this is one what I construe to be rather offensive, which is giving personal opinion of my situation rather than trying to become more knowledgeable of the scheme generally."

Jonathan, I do not understand this because this was not aimed at you it was an example; it could have been any businessperson. In fact, it could actually be me I am referring too.

You are right, I do not know your personnel circumstance neither do you know mine.

What I was asking you and anyone else reading this thread is do you think it is right or necessary to claim everything just because you can?

What I might do is start another thread with a poll, to see what the opinion is on the forum.

Pete.

 

[bwglaw]

Jonathan, do you mind me asking why you claim funding?

The reason I ask is that you and your business interests seem to be very successful. So why claim funding.

I am all for providing assistance (cash) to those who require it but are you claiming just because you can?

Pete

Does not sound like you are referring to any other businessman but me.

 

[bwglaw]

I was responding to the above quote. It read to me that you receive funding (allowances) for travel to meetings. Sorry if I interpreted it wrong. The reason is that you do or will very soon be driving a merc (not short of money).

My point is that I do not believe that we should claim for everything that we might be entitled too if we are in a fortunate position to be successful.

IMHO I believe that allowances are for those that need it and not necessarily those who can claim for it.

So what I am trying to say is, if I was a successful businessman and say I was deaf, would you think it was ok for me to claim what I was entitled too from the state? Or should I fund what I require myself, which would allow then for more money in the kitty for less unfortunate.

Pete.

Does the above statement refer to any other businessman? You are insinuating that I do not need the funding. You have also insinuated that I am buying a Merc being not short of money. The two statements are connected in the same sentence.

Paying for the car by HP at £350 a month hardly makes me rich, me thinks!

You are right I do not know your circumstances and that is why I have not made any reference to you personally. I do not believe in giving judgment before grasping the facts and I believe in giving an informed opinion when and where appropriate.

You are right I did not have to tell you anything but I was under the illusion that you were acquiring information about the scheme itself and not giving an opinion as above.

 

[Peter Jolley]

Your right in that post I was asking you a direct question. No cryptic message at all, just an outright question and yes, at you.

But the quote you referred to was an example. I am the sort of person that if I were aiming something directly at you, I would say you.

So please, do not start getting offended.

Pete.

 

[Subbynet]

@ClareB - You have nothing to answer in my opinion, this woman clearly believes you are on gods earth to provide a service for her. I'd tell her in no uncertain terms were to get off. (Plus investigate the idea of putting on weekends)

@Plaintext - Sorry to hear about your disability, but saying that I do not believe any company or organisation (Private or Public) has a responsibility to transport you to and from their location.

Lets be honest, you booked a course without checking travel requirements, and on top of that you could have booked a taxi or ask a friend as already mentioned.

 

[bwglaw]

Your posts appear to be inconsistent. You say in one post, not aimed at me and now say it is.

I am not offended, but interpret the statements to be offensive by insinuation on the borderline of allegation.

Your arguments appear flawed therefore I rest my case.

 

[Peter Jolley]

Where is the "bordering on allegation"?

I have not accused you of defrauding anyone.

I was merely asking your opinions.

Pete.

 

Plaintext - Sorry to hear about your disability, but saying that I do not believe any company or organisation (Private or Public) has a responsibility to transport you to and from their location.

Lets be honest, you booked a course without checking travel requirements, and on top of that you could have booked a taxi or ask a friend as already mentioned.

Any company or organisation has a responsibility to make reasonable adjustments to provide a service for the disabled. The law requires them to. That includes, for example (and an oft-quoted one), a solicitor visting a client at their home if they are unable to travel to the lawyer's office or if there is no wheelchair access.

Yes, I made a mistake not checking the access arrangements when I booked the course - I won't be making that error again. But I have, as a business person, as much right to attend a government-funded training course at Business Link as any other business person does. Why should I be excluded?

I can get around reasonably well on public transport to many places. I cannot get to anywhere that is only accessible by car as my disability precludes me from that.

I am excluded from many activities in my private life due to a lack of permission to drive any more - for example, on bank holidays, I would love to go to interesting places like Jodrell Bank, which is not very far from me, but it's only accessible by car. Ergo, I'm excluded. Same with weekends away at country hotels, as someone else mentioned - I just don't do them much as I'd love to. Instead I opt for city breaks.

I find your attitude to disability very disappointing. You seem to think that if we can't get somewhere because of lack of disabled access, then tough luck for us. I hope you don't discriminate against your own customers this way.

 

[bwglaw]

Where is the "bordering on allegation"?

I have not accused you of defrauding anyone...

Thats right you have not directly accused me of defrauding and did not say you were...but you have alleged by insinuation that I am using the money to pay for the Merc and that I am claiming money just because I can!

I was merely asking your opinions.

Really... cannot find any questions! Have enjoyed our debate by the way No offence taken

Jonathan

 

[Peter Jolley]

Thats right you have not directly accused me of defrauding and did not say you were...but you have alleged by insinuation that I am using the money to pay for the Merc and that I am claiming money just because I can!

That is utter rubbish.

Really... cannot find any questions!

What the hell is that meant to mean Jonathan.

Your arguments appear flawed therefore I rest my case

What argument, I was stating an opinion and I was asking for yours and others. The rest of the time I have been defending my posts.

 

[SuffolkDesigns]

@ Plaintext

Please don't take this the wrong way, I am just interested as I no longer live in the UK and subjects like this do interest me.

Would Business Link collect anyone from the train station that did not have a driving license ? You said that you could not walk from the bus stop to BL due to there being no footpath, this could also be argued that a road having no footpath is dangerous for anyone to walk along.

Myself and a few other friends that have businesses in Estonia raise money for local disabled children at the local orphanage which are mostly phsyically handicapped. To give you an example one 9 year old girl was waiting for a wheelchair for just over 2 years after losing both legs and both her parents in a car accident. After the accidine she was in hospital for only 3 months with no rehabilitation before being dumped at the orphange with a pair of old wooden crutches. The orphanage has 68 children aged up to 13 years old (when they have to leave and go it alone) 3 staff members, one 4 ring cooker and one washing machine. The kids get very little in the way of education. And this is in an EU country !!

If that is how the kids are treated I will leave it to your imagination how bad the facilities are for the disabled adults in the community that have to live on social security of 3000.- kroons per month (about £160) when the average rent for a 1 room apartment is also 3000.- kroon per month and there are no other benefits they can claim.
I have yet to see a disabled person working in any office, factory or shop I have been into whilst living here for the past 6 years.

 

[Subbynet]

Hi,

Your right, but it comes down to what is reasonable. A solicitor visiting a clients home is reasonable, after-all everyone is entitled to legal advice and it's on a one to one basis.

Contrast this with the Business Link who run many courses, which are very popular.

Is it now reasonable to exclude or interupt the course for all others because of your special needs? (Which you failed to mention in advance)

Once you are on their premises they must accommodate you as best as possible, regardless, but before that it's upto you to atleast try and make arrangments - or to make it known you are disabled, because as you can see, people will go out of their way to help.

I personally find your attitude disappointing. After reading your post it sounds like you had a tantrum over the distance and straight away phoned the DRC instead of phoning the Business Link and explaining the situation.

It's not a case of "tough luck", but facing facts at some point unless you put yourself out it always will be "tough luck" (That goes for you, me, and everyone else!). Thats life and no one is here to support yours no matter how badly done you feel - you can always do a little more.

Regards,

Martin
(ps. I have epilepsy in the family!)

 

[Cornish Steve]

Well, I admire people who face challenges of any type and who resolve to make a success of their lives - whether it be a physical disability, an illness, or anything else. If a barrier is put in their way, they go around it, over it, under it, or through it, while most of us just complain about the barrier. All credit to those of you in this discussion who have overcome challenges of any type.

 

Your right, but it comes down to what is reasonable. A solicitor visiting a clients home is reasonable, after-all everyone is entitled to legal advice and it's on a one to one basis.

Contrast this with the Business Link who run many courses, which are very popular.

Is it now reasonable to exclude or interupt the course for all others because of your special needs? (Which you failed to mention in advance)

Once you are on their premises they must accommodate you as best as possible, regardless, but before that it's upto you to atleast try and make arrangments - or to make it known you are disabled, because as you can see, people will go out of their way to help.

I personally find your attitude disappointing. After reading your post it sounds like you had a tantrum over the distance and straight away phoned the DRC instead of phoning the Business Link and explaining the situation.

It's not a case of "tough luck", but facing facts at some point unless you put yourself out it always will be "tough luck" (That goes for you, me, and everyone else!). Thats life and no one is here to support yours no matter how badly done you feel - you can always do a little more.

Regards,

Martin
(ps. I have epilepsy in the family!)

Yes I failed to mention when I booked the course - I booked by email and then checked to see where I had to get to. BUT - I did then phone Business Link in Warrington to explain my situation. Their attidude was unhelpful to say the least. They told me to get the bus from the train station. Then told me it was ONLY a mile to walk from the bus stop! With a walk down an unpavemented road that is only meant for cars! As I explained earlier, walking along such a route would put my life at risj should I have uncontrolled seizure strike without warning.

THAT was why I then rang the the DRC for advice because I didn't know what to do. I felt I had no option but to cancel the course as I simply had no other way of getting there. It was two days before they rang me back to offer to collect me from the centre of Warrington and by then it was too late to rebook. In fairness to BL, they did say they hadn't considered such needs before even though they have wheelchair access etc, and that they would take needs such as mine into account in the future. But I missed out on what would have been a very useful course for me.

Accusing me of having a tantrum is unfair - I did everything I could to get there under my own steam. It was BL who were unhelpful until it was too late. As I already said, I'm very independent and hate having to ask for help. I felt humiliated having to ask for a pick-up.

 

@ Plaintext

Please don't take this the wrong way, I am just interested as I no longer live in the UK and subjects like this do interest me.

Would Business Link collect anyone from the train station that did not have a driving license ? You said that you could not walk from the bus stop to BL due to there being no footpath, this could also be argued that a road having no footpath is dangerous for anyone to walk along.

Myself and a few other friends that have businesses in Estonia raise money for local disabled children at the local orphanage which are mostly phsyically handicapped. To give you an example one 9 year old girl was waiting for a wheelchair for just over 2 years after losing both legs and both her parents in a car accident. After the accidine she was in hospital for only 3 months with no rehabilitation before being dumped at the orphange with a pair of old wooden crutches. The orphanage has 68 children aged up to 13 years old (when they have to leave and go it alone) 3 staff members, one 4 ring cooker and one washing machine. The kids get very little in the way of education. And this is in an EU country !!

If that is how the kids are treated I will leave it to your imagination how bad the facilities are for the disabled adults in the community that have to live on social security of 3000.- kroons per month (about £160) when the average rent for a 1 room apartment is also 3000.- kroon per month and there are no other benefits they can claim.
I have yet to see a disabled person working in any office, factory or shop I have been into whilst living here for the past 6 years.

I doubt very much if BL would collect anyone who doesn't have a driving licence. But I'm not anyone, I have a disability.

Walking along a road with no pavement is indeed dangerous for anyone, but it's even more dangerous for someone with uncontrolled epilepsy. Two seizures a year is all I have on average, but I don't get warnings and unlike someone who doesn't have epilepsy, I wouldn't have the opportunity to dive into a hedge to get out of the way of traffic if a seizure struck. In fact, I'd be more likely to wander INTO the path of a car as a seizure takes hold as there's alwys a few moments where the brain doesn't compute before the seizure kicks in.

I feel sad and angry about the situation in Estonia for the disabled. And it's just as bad in many other countries unfortunately. It's good you are doing what you can to help.

 

[SuffolkDesigns]

I doubt very much if BL would collect anyone who doesn't have a driving licence.

Playing devils advocate here (again out of interest)

If BL would not collect a person without a disability, that claimed walking along a road with no footpath was too dangerous, so they could attend a course, would that not mean that they are discriminating against the non disabled ? (maybe Jonathon could chime in here)

Surely there is a great argument here for getting an additional bus stop added that would save several people travelling issues.

 

I'd like to see you try and get the council or a bus company to add a new bus stop!

The problem really is that Business Link - which is government-funded - chose to site their office in a place that is inaccessible by public transport. If the non-disabled don't have a car, they can choose to take a driving test and hire or buy a car. The difference is I HAVE a driving licence. I'm not allowed to use it unless I go seizure-free for at least 12 months, which I haven't managed in the last 3 years, and I'm unlikely to in the future if my current seizure pattern remains. It's enormously frustrating to go 10 or 11 months without a seizure and think about reapplying to the DVLA, only to see it slip from my grasp again. Even if I did go 12 months without a seizure, the chances are good, I'd have to hand my licence back in within weeks. I would love to be able to drive again and gain more independence.

 

[SuffolkDesigns]

If the non-disabled don't have a car, they can choose to take a driving test and hire or buy a car.

Maybe financial reasons would prevent this, also could the argument then be that if they can hire a car then you could get a taxi ?

I would like to see what would happen if BL were accused of discrimination against both non disabled and disabled, maybe they would have more power to get an additional bus stop in place.

I'm not allowed to use it unless I go seizure-free for at least 12 months, which I haven't managed in the last 3 years, and I'm unlikely to in the future if my current seizure pattern remains. It's enormously frustrating to go 10 or 11 months without a seizure and think about reapplying to the DVLA, only to see it slip from my grasp again

I admire your honesty in this, it must be sorely tempting not to admit to having a seizure (unless you have to seek medical attention each time)

 

[fastfences]

Back to the origin of the thread; stick with 'B.'

Clients are invited to attend your business during the time you offer services. You are not disadvantaging her in any manner - she can just not avail herself to your service at the time she wishes. Why is that your fault?

Gee, she might ring me for a fence, then what? Diggers and nail guns going off a nine pm?

cheers, Nigel

 

[bwglaw]

That is utter rubbish.

The jury is out.

What the hell is that meant to mean Jonathan.

Exactly what it says, there are no questions as to acquire knowledge of the subject matter. As you rightly said here:

What argument, I was stating an opinion and I was asking for yours and others. The rest of the time I have been defending my posts.

... you are just stating your opinion and your opinion is loud and clear. Like I said earlier, your posts are written in a different context as to what you claim you intended on saying.

Jonathan