Altenative to sagepay due to major flaw in system!

jazzydan58

Free Member
Jan 8, 2009
76
8
Just found out to my horror that a few transactions that have been processed through sagepay have been reversed AFTER they have notified us that it has been a successful transaction ie marked as paid on our shopping cart system this is due to a flaw in the way sagepays system works and processes payment after making some enquiries with developers and sagepay its just the way that there system works and I can't believe its possible, so I now need to dump sagepay as I have absolutely no faith in there system anymore.

I am looking at Paypoint.net, I have avoided worldpay as the system I have used as a buyer seems to be awful, any others that can be thrown in the hat?
 
L

LMDServicesUK

We would welcome an opportunity to talk to you, can you let us know whose shopping cart you are currently using, so I can confirm compatibility ?

What do you sell, and what is your av transaction value ? / monthly value (so I can size the gateway)

Re the experience as an end user this is as much down to your shopping cart as well as the way you host the payment screen, we can either host on your site or do a transparent redirect, whichever you prefer ?

See http://developers.paymentsense.co.uk for more details.

Our gateway fees start at £ 10 PCM for £ 4K revenue transactions per month plus merchant fees.

Hope this helps a little..

Mark
 
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H

Hunting Solutions

Just found out to my horror that a few transactions that have been processed through sagepay have been reversed AFTER they have notified us that it has been a successful transaction ie marked as paid on our shopping cart system this is due to a flaw in the way sagepays system works and processes payment after making some enquiries with developers and sagepay its just the way that there system works and I can't believe its possible, so I now need to dump sagepay as I have absolutely no faith in there system anymore.

I am looking at Paypoint.net, I have avoided worldpay as the system I have used as a buyer seems to be awful, any others that can be thrown in the hat?

Had the payments already cleared through the Sagepay settlements?
 
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jazzydan58

Free Member
Jan 8, 2009
76
8
The sagepay payments had not been settled but sage pay had already confirmed that payment was successful, as a rule we don't check every payment in sage pay as we would have to employ someone to do it seems a crazy system to me but maybe we work differently than others.
 
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deniser

Free Member
Jun 3, 2008
8,081
1,697
London
We use Paypoint.net and are generally happy with it. I would recommend it.

It has occasionally somehow managed to duplicate some payments in batches - not sure how, they can't shed any light on it - but I guess it is better to have too much customer money than too little - and we have just refunded these.

No other issues that I can remember really except that customer services is not quite as helpful since it was outsourced but I don't have cause to ring them very often so not much of an issue.

And the Third Man service that comes with it is excellent.
 
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jazzydan58

Free Member
Jan 8, 2009
76
8
Sorry I should have made this clear, this is nothing to do with chargebacks or fraud its a flaw in the way sagepay works, basically as I understand it works as follows:

customer completes checkout on your website and is entering card details on either sagepay form or server integration, once all details are entered customer clicks confirm/complete............

sagepay sends a message to your shopping cart that the transaction was successful and your shopping cart marks the transaction as paid,

sagepay then asks your shopping cart for the web address to redirect the customer to that will display a message which is normally something like "thank you for your payment order will be on the way shortly" if this page does not load or the address fails for some reason sagepay cancel the transaction in the next few seconds.


This cancellation happens after sagepay has sent the confirmation that the payment was successful eg you will receive an email confirming payment was successful and your shopping cart will show the payment as cleared,
 
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Sage Pay Support

Free Member
Nov 21, 2012
12
4
Hi

Our Support team are available 24/7 to discuss this further with you via 0845 111 4455.

Regarding Form integration - Sage Pay cannot guarantee to return the customer to your website. If the customer closes their browser mid way through a transaction or if something goes wrong with the redirect stages, it recommended within our protocol guides to check the status of the transactions. In normal circumstances however whete the customer does not close their browser and there are no redirection problems, Sage Pay will return the customer to your sire, either to the SuccessURL or FailureURL.

The SuccessURL will be appended to the field called Crypt. The SuccessURL and FailureURL should point to scripts on your server that extract the information in the crypt field and use it to update your database and/or format an appropriate response page for the customer. You may choose to direcet your customer to a static HTML page that ignores the contents of the crypt field. In such cases, you will need to nmanually check the My Sage Pay report pages to determine if a trasaction succeeded or failed.

Regarding Server integration - the problem you encounter appears to be after Sage Pay send via the Notification URL the status of the transaction along with the other fields detail such as the VPSSignature. At this point Sage Pay require a handshake from you to acknowledge receipt of the Notification post. Within the acknowledgement you confirm the status, the RedirectURL and the StatusDetail.

It's important to note that in the acknowledgement response, the first characters Sage Pay is expecting to see is 'Status='. If Sage Pay do not receive the 'Status=OK' first and instead receives any header code, HTML or comments, we will treat the response as an error and the transaction will fail.

If you're able to supply a TxID or vendor name and TxCode to our Support team, we may be able to check the logs for a transaction that did not reach the desired location and may be able to provide more information as to why.

Sage Pay Support
 
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jazzydan58

Free Member
Jan 8, 2009
76
8
Its nice for sage pay to reply and you have confirmed what I had found out from your support and developers that a payment cab be reversed after sagepay systems have already confirmed it as successful, I spoke to two developers one of them said he works with many payment gateways and sagepays is the only one in the world that he knows of that can reverse a payment after the gateway has confirmed as successful. Unfortunately your support can only tell me the failure reason if contacted with in 72 hours regardless I don't really care the exact reason for the payment being cancelled all I care is that I have sent an item and don't have the money!
 
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Hello all

If you're still exploring Payment Gateway options, the team at Cardstream would be more than happy to assist.

We provide the best Payment Gateway rates on the market and currently back this up with a Price Guarantee! Our highly knowledge UK based customer service and technical support staff would be happy to discuss your requirements in further detail - please feel free to call us on 0845 00 99 575 or email us any time.

We have a SagePay translation layer developed too, enabling you switch quickly before undertaking our Direct or Hosted Form integration in full.

Oh - and we're pretty good a sourcing Merchant Accounts too. We're an independent Payment Gateway, operating with all the UK Acquirers - so we're able to introduce you to the best possible Merchant Account provider for your business.

Cardstream Payment Gateway
 
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dingbat

Free Member
Nov 28, 2006
994
138
In fact could someone explain how you would detect that a transaction had passed but actually failed? Where would you see this?

Under my Sagepay 'Summary' I have numerous 'failed' transactions. But how do I tell which ones are which?

I have direct integration btw.
 
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H

Hunting Solutions

In fact could someone explain how you would detect that a transaction had passed but actually failed? Where would you see this?

Under my Sagepay 'Summary' I have numerous 'failed' transactions. But how do I tell which ones are which?

I have direct integration btw.

Just check under 'settlements'. This will show you which payments were actually passed to your merchant account for credit to your business bank account.
 
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L

LMDServicesUK

OK am going to be cheeky now..

If you would like to look at our Payment Gateway as an alternative to SagePay, we do not suffer from this issue as Sage Pay does.. and you can see individual payments and their status, e.g. approved, declined by individual transaction etc.

We can also provision you a merchant account and once approved have you operational within 24 hours as long as your shopping cart is supported by us,(most are..).

We are also a lot cheaper (from £ 10 PCM for up to £ 4K in transactions PCM) and have a 100% uptime record..

go to http://www.paymentsense.co.uk/e-commerce/payment-gateway/ to find out more or just PM me !

Mark
 
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japancool

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  • Jul 11, 2013
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    japan-cool.uk
    OK am going to be cheeky now..

    If you would like to look at our Payment Gateway as an alternative to SagePay, we do not suffer from this issue as Sage Pay does.. and you can see individual payments and their status, e.g. approved, declined by individual transaction etc.

    We can also provision you a merchant account and once approved have you operational within 24 hours as long as your shopping cart is supported by us,(most are..).

    We are also a lot cheaper (from £ 10 PCM for up to £ 4K in transactions PCM) and have a 100% uptime record..

    go to http://www.paymentsense.co.uk/e-commerce/payment-gateway/ to find out more or just PM me !

    Mark

    Mark, it's just a real shame your gateway doesn't work with my ecommerce provider, otherwise I'd definitely be using you. :(

    Get 'em on board!
     
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    L

    LMDServicesUK

    Mark, it's just a real shame your gateway doesn't work with my ecommerce provider, otherwise I'd definitely be using you. :(

    Get 'em on board!

    Thankyou again..

    Agreed, and trust me we are lobbying but some of the providers do not want to open themselves up for "commercial reasons" which are normally the commissions they get from their merchant account providing partners...

    We will keep trying and sooner or later they might open up due to market pressures..

    Mark
     
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    HobbyMounts

    Free Member
    Apr 13, 2013
    305
    22
    Would this still be a problem IF you checked your SagePay admin screen and checked the status of the payment manually, rather than rely on your websites sales admin panel?

    As a SagePay user, I always check our transactions in SagePay admin to look at the 3rd man info. Would this prevent this problem you speak of?
     
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    jazzydan58

    Free Member
    Jan 8, 2009
    76
    8
    Easiest way to find these successful but failed transactions is scroll through your transactions in sagepay and look at the right hand side where the fraud results display (little green shields normally 3 or 4 in a line) if you have a red high lighted transaction but have three or four green shields click the transaction, you are looking for a message that states something like "sagepay decided to cancel this transaction due to an error"

    Generally my red failed transactions do not have the green shields because the customer has dropped out of checkout before the checks.

    When you find one it's a heart stopping moment you suddenly realise something you trusted is not as you thought, luckily I managed to get my customer to pay the £140 over the phone.......
     
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    HobbyMounts

    Free Member
    Apr 13, 2013
    305
    22
    I'm guessing the problem you have posted about is only an issue if you don't log in to sagepay admin and as said above, check your transaction status?

    Which also means, you're not checking your 3rd man score for fraudulent activity?

    If I've got this completely wrong please let me know.
     
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    jazzydan58

    Free Member
    Jan 8, 2009
    76
    8
    I'm guessing the problem you have posted about is only an issue if you don't log in to sagepay admin and as said above, check your transaction status?

    Which also means, you're not checking your 3rd man score for fraudulent activity?

    If I've got this completely wrong please let me know.

    It would not be possible for us to check every sale on sagepay we're only a small company and do 150+ total transactions a day, surely checking mysagepay for every order is not common place?

    We have tweeked the rule settings for payments and let the computers do the working out, we have only had a few fraudulent orders and these have been picked up by staff when they have been printed out due to a few other factors.

    If someone pays with PayPal how do you judge if that is safe?
     
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    websnail

    Free Member
    Apr 21, 2008
    508
    89
    South Yorkshire
    Regarding Form integration - Sage Pay cannot guarantee to return the customer to your website. If the customer closes their browser mid way through a transaction or if something goes wrong with the redirect stages, it recommended within our protocol guides to check the status of the transactions. In normal circumstances however whete the customer does not close their browser and there are no redirection problems, Sage Pay will return the customer to your sire, either to the SuccessURL or FailureURL.

    The SuccessURL will be appended to the field called Crypt. The SuccessURL and FailureURL should point to scripts on your server that extract the information in the crypt field and use it to update your database and/or format an appropriate response page for the customer. You may choose to direcet your customer to a static HTML page that ignores the contents of the crypt field. In such cases, you will need to nmanually check the My Sage Pay report pages to determine if a trasaction succeeded or failed.
    This may be relevant because of the cart/stores interaction but ignore this for a second..

    Regarding Server integration - the problem you encounter appears to be after Sage Pay send via the Notification URL the status of the transaction along with the other fields detail such as the VPSSignature. At this point Sage Pay require a handshake from you to acknowledge receipt of the Notification post. Within the acknowledgement you confirm the status, the RedirectURL and the StatusDetail.
    Right... So basically SagePay require an extra confirmation "handshake" with the shops server to confirm that the payment status has been received and the order updated. Is that correct?

    If so, that's one extra step than say Paypoint.net or most other gateways from what I remember and is divorced completely from the "Success/Fail" page discussed above and earlier in this thread.*

    It's important to understand that there's two levels of transaction going on here.

    The Server to Server communication between the store and Sagepay, and then the customer to store communication.

    My guess is that the store itself is the problem as it appears to have tied that last "Success" page into the final confirmation to Sagepay that "all is well" with the order and acknowledges the payment status. If that's true, it's a bit of a poor integration that needs addressing.


    If the customer doesn't return to the store (perhaps thinking they've paid so that's it) then the last part of the transaction doesn't complete and Sagepay cancels the order while the store is not setup to recognise the reversal and you end up with the mess described by the OP.


    While Sagepay could perhaps clarify this a bit better it's really whoever wrote the integration for the store that needs to ante up and sort it out so that regardless of the customers interaction with the store after completing a payment, the transaction is still acknowledged and updated properly.

    In that respect it's really down to the store coders and/or the associated payment/checkout module to fix it so I would actually be getting on to their case rather than SagePay.



    If you're able to supply a TxID or vendor name and TxCode to our Support team, we may be able to check the logs for a transaction that did not reach the desired location and may be able to provide more information as to why.
    I would definitely take up this offer (if you haven't already) and figure out what's going on and confirm whether my guess above is accurate or whether the issue is more ingrained elsewhere.

    Beyond that it would incredibly useful to others reading this thread to know what cart system you're using so any other affected users can check their logs as well as being forewarned.




    And one small nugget of feedback for Sagepay Support... Please spellcheck your responses. The level of mistakes in your response made me seriously question if you were a legit rep' from Sagepay.





    *Footnote: I can well appreciate that the extra confirmation step could be seen as a pain in the backside and why's it there, blah, blah, blah but perhaps a concrete example of why it's useful.

    With Paypoint.net, occasionally I get a payment confirmation where the store server falls over, hits a high load, exchange rates change (between order confirmation and payment completion) or any number of rare but fatal events from the point of view of the validation routine. To date I've counted five instances from an average of 1,000 transactions in a given 6 month period so having something that were to catch and resolve such an event would actually be very handy.


    Hope that clarifies what's potentially going on... As much because it may highlight the store code is not fit for purpose with other gateways as well. Not a fun thought.
     
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    What software are you using to run your site ? Is the integration to SagePay part of that software or is it supplied by a third party ?

    My guess is it would be a problem with your how the site handles the integration and not a problem with SagePay. Like many other on here we have been using SagePay for many years and have never had this kind of problem.
     
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