advice please re: Awkward customer

[kelmayo77]

Hello, how do I deal with this?

we have a customer who has ordered and paid a small deposit for a new fire and also a false chimney breast to be built. we are using subcontractor's for the wood work and plastering. The joiner had to build the frame and then return to the job after the plasterer to put new skirting on. we have got as far as to building the chimney breast and supplying and fitting the fire. the snag is the joiner cannot return till next week but the customer is going on holiday tomorrow meaning the job cannot be finished till she gets back. we have asked her to pay the balance which she has refused stating the job is not finished and if she must she will only pay half of what is outstanding and that is only if she finds the time to pop in our shop to pay today! we have said this is unreasonable as the skirting board is a very small cost in the job and asked she only hold back an amount to cover that as her going away is the only thing holding the job up. where do we stand we have laid out the money for the fire,joiner and plasterer which has cost us a lot more than her deposit. we have also done a gas run that she was told would cost £4.50 per foot of gas pipe used on top. she now has the full figure and is refusing to pay that full stop as its 'to dear'. its customers like this who do not help small businesses if we had 4 or 5 of these we would go bust!!

 

[Rookery]

I can understand her point of view - its not finished so I wouldnt pay and I wouldnt expect my customers to either. Presumably you wont be paying the joiner until the job is finished. If its only a bit of skirting to finish, cant you do it yourself or ask the joiner to fit it in it at the end of the day?

 

[JohnLocke1]

I'm with Rookery, I would pay until the job is fully finished. It's always these little things that often seem to be "not bothered with" if you pay up. It's only little to you, but to the customer a bit of skirting missing is unsightly. As you say "the joiner can't return until next week" - simply that is not the customers fault, but it is your problem to deal with. If the joiner could get their today then it's job done, and you get paid.

It's part of business that you have to cover costs until payment. Think yourself lucky you don't have a shop carrying tens of thousands of pounds worth of stock all the time

 

[estwig]

Why do you need a joiner to fit a bit of skirt?

Pop round, fit the skirt, get paid!

It's good of the client to offer to pay half, sounds like she is playing fair.

Stop blaming the client and get on with it.

 

[poundcoin]

Put it down to experience .

Let her go on holiday .

She may be more chilled when she gets back and accept the extra piping charge .
Winding her up before she goes away , may only let her worries fester and make her hatch all sorts of other ruses whilst she's away only to confront you with when she gets back .

Mind you I was always a "wuss" !

 

[kelmayo77]

thank you for your comments, yes we have already paid joiner as he has done bulk of the work I guess from your comments this was the wrong attitude as we had faith in him that he would return even though he had been paid.
Trust me if we was to do the joinery ourselves and mess it up it would make this situation 10 times worse and I don't believe in just botching up the job we are not joiners and we would rather leave it to the professionals.

We cannot get in the house today as she is out all day that is why she said she would only pay half if she had the time

I am not to bothered about the pipe work it is more the point but I am bothered that we are out of pocket over £1000. we are not a massive company and this amount has a great impact. especially when held back for weeks this has a knock on effect with other jobs/customers

 

[JohnW1]

TBH I think your biggest mistake was paying the joiner before he had finished. It now seems a low priority for him to complete the work for you.

 

[estwig]

Yes paying the joiner before he had finished was a mistake. Can you not get someone else in to finish the work?

If you don't grab hold of this problem and get it sorted quick, it could easily escalate into a big problem. The joiner may not turn up and you've already p*ssed the client off when they owe you money.

You need to get that skirt fitted asap, take the hit on the cost, get paid and move on.

You really have gotta nip this in the bud as quick as you can.

 

[dave1928]

Get another joiner in and get the job complete and money will follow. What ever they charge deduct from you usual joiner or somewhere near.

If the jobs like this hold up thousands of pounds then you need a more reliable joiner me thinks. Or maybe insist on larger deposits??

The customer i think has done the right thing as nothing worse than paying in full for a 95% complete job as then your not gonna be urgent in finishing.

Main thing now is to keep customer happy so just either wait patiently till after holiday or get it done fast.

 

[kelmayo77]

I am sure if I explained the situation to the joiner he would return today as we use him regular and would go out of his way for us knowing the importance. but the customer is out for the day and it is not possible for him to get in the property.so it is to late now to complete the skirting.
I appreciate peoples comments I really do but I am guessing that if you are business people then your ventures must have been easy. we are a small family run business and what seems like a small thing to you is rather a great thing to us. we are known in this area as a family run business and the customer actually lives on the same road as we live which is the same road as the shop, so she even knows our business and home address why would we not return to do her skirting? why would she not be willing to pay for all the other work involved and leave out the joiners fee?

 

[JohnLocke1]

I am sure if I explained the situation to the joiner he would return today as we use him regular and would go out of his way for us knowing the importance. but the customer is out for the day and it is not possible for him to get in the property.

If the joiner would come back today, why didn't he come back yesterday :|

 

[estwig]

How the hell have you managed to stay in business??

You make far too many assumptions, especially about other peoples businesses.

Have you any idea how much this is damaging your reputation, the client is on your doorstep and you can't even get a bit of skirting fitted for her.

It's people like you who give the trades a bad name.

 

[kelmayo77]

the plasterer finished yesterday the skirting could not be fitted against wet plaster! now who is making assumptions?

 

[Lease4Less]

You have asked for advice, which has been given and yet you have chosen to totally ignore.

You have not completed the job. Why should the customer pay. I certainly wouldn't. If the customer is struggling to get you to finish the job BEFORE they pay you, can you imagine how difficult it will be for them to get you to finish it once youv'e been paid.

Stop messing about, get round there and finish the job and get paid.

And, I agree with Estwig, it is examples like this why tradesman get bad names.

 

[JohnLocke1]

the plasterer finished yesterday the skirting could not be fitted against wet plaster! now who is making assumptions?

Me, me, me. Although it was a question rather than an assumption. Now we know the reason, thanks.

So you knew she was off on holiday, yet didn't arrange to have the joiner come back today, I could ask why but presume you got behind on the job?

 

[estwig]

the plasterer finished yesterday the skirting could not be fitted against wet plaster! now who is making assumptions?

Lots of excuses, blaming the client, the joiner and now the plaster.

Take responsibility, get the skirt fitted tomorrow morning, lean on your joiner it's only an hours work. Make a big deal of doing the client a favour, turn this into something positive.

 

[kelmayo77]

Me, me, me. Although it was a question rather than an assumption. Now we know the reason, thanks.

So you knew she was off on holiday, yet didn't arrange to have the joiner come back today, I could ask why but presume you got behind on the job?

i was referring to estwig not you... sorry

 

[chalkie99]

The reason she isn't paying and saying she isn't available is because she is going to blow the money she owes you on her holiday.

A pound to a holiday euro she won't have the cash on her return.

Sorry that isn't going to cheer you up.

 

[JohnLocke1]

i was referring to estwig not you... sorry

Oooops, well arn't I full of self-importance :redface:

 

[KateCB]

I think that one of the problems here is that an end date may not have been stated in the initial contract - had the customer said that she needed all work completed by a certain date, you could have ensured that this happened, and been paid when it dod.

Because it is NOT finished, and she is now essentially unavailable due to her holiday, she is upset because she will be coming home to what she considers 'a mess' - and you consider 'unfinished work'.

The gas pipe work - if this was clearly identified to start with, i.e. we will charge you 4.50 per metre used, which is as yet unknown, and she accepted and signed for it, then she has to pay it as long as you can prove that you used the metreage that you are charging for.

Now, as for us all having 'easy ventures' I would say that that is a big assunption on your part; business generally is NOT 'easy' for anyone; many of us are sole traders, family businesses etc and trade on our hard won reputation, so I think that many of us understand your feelings, however it doesn't detract from the fact that in business, you need to plan for things like this, and as I said initially have 'end dates'.

In 2009 I had new radiators, piping , boiler and water tank installed - I told the company before I signed the order that the work had to be finished by no later than 7th August and allowed the amount of time plus a few days for unexpected events for the work to be done. The company (a small family business, located in our village) were fully aware of their obligations, and me mine, and the work was completed on time and in style - now you may have already done this, and if so, something went wrong that wasn't planned for, however if you didn't it may be something to consider for future?

£1000 to a small business is a lot of money, but I am with the customer, when the job is done, the final payment is made - if that was the original agreement, then that is what will happen.

You need to keep in her good books for the sake of future work and of course your reputation, an apology for the delay may be in order, but I wouldn't press for payment until that piece of skirting in on the wall, the job is finished and you can legitimately say its time to settle up - the piping may be a sticking point, but if it has been used, she has to pay as long as you can prove she agreed to it, and knew that you could not give her a price until you were fully aware of how much was needed to complete the job.

Hope it all comes good for you in the end.

 

[kelmayo77]

Lots of excuses, blaming the client, the joiner and now the plaster.

Take responsibility, get the skirt fitted tomorrow morning, lean on your joiner it's only an hours work. Make a big deal of doing the client a favour, turn this into something positive.

I have not put blame on anyone I have asked for your opinions and given you further details when I thought you needed it. I have simply explained the situation. I thought I was having an adult conversation but I guess you could have lied when the registration form asked for your date of birth.

 

[estwig]

You don't like what I say so you call me a liar??

You really don't deserve to be in business, but I'm gonna make you an offer anyway. If your anywhere near Gillingham in kent, I'll go and fit your bl**dy skirt first thing in the morning.

 

[JohnLocke1]

I have not put blame on anyone I have asked for your opinions and given you further details when I thought you needed it. I have simply explained the situation. I thought I was having an adult conversation but I guess you could have lied when the registration form asked for your date of birth.

Don't get upset, you asked a question and maybe didn't like the replies. It was you that started attacking us with the assumption of "we had it easy", and I think you got away with that lightly.

I think you have probably got your answer, how you act upon it is up to you

 

[KateCB]

Have you ever noticed that it is the people who have posted half a dozen times, with a situation that we have all come across and dealt with on our own in the past, who become abusive, start attacking, calling us liars, babies, etc when the truth starts to hurt them?

It makes you wonder why we offer advice gained from years of experience - are we masochists here do you think? Or are we sadists, telling the hurtful truth !

 

[JohnLocke1]

Have you ever noticed that it is the people who have posted half a dozen times, with a situation that we have all come across and dealt with on our own in the past, who become abusive, start attacking, calling us liars, babies, etc when the truth starts to hurt them?

It makes you wonder why we offer advice gained from years of experience - are we masochists here do you think? Or are we sadists, telling the hurtful truth !

Yea, but what do you know

 

[kelmayo77]

Now, as for us all having 'easy ventures' I would say that that is a big assunption on your part; business generally is NOT 'easy' for anyone; many of us are sole traders, family businesses etc and trade on our hard won reputation, so I think that many of us understand your feelings, however it doesn't detract from the fact that in business, you need to plan for things like this, and as I said initially have 'end dates'.

I am sorry that this seems to have come across as an insult it was not meant in that way. I read some replies that seemed very come day go day about the situation and I guessed or ASSUMED that these people must have found it very easy to make a success of their business and I compared my situation to what I ASSUMED theirs is not everyone's on this site. but I guess assumption is an ASS after all then I am assuming that again.

 

[Podge]

I think the OP has made it clear that the customer has put constraints on him finishing the job before they go on holiday so I think some of the comments about getting on and finishing the job are a little harsh.

Having said that, I don't think the customer should have to pay until the job is finished and I would doubt the practice of giving a cost per foot for a job like the gas piping without working out before hand how much that particular aspect of the job would actually cost and informing the customer of the total price before the job was started.

 

[chalkie99]

the only thing you can assume in business is that the customer is going to take you for a mug and screw you in ways you never imagined if you give them half a chance.

All you can do here is learn from the experience and tighten up your practices from now on.

 

[estwig]

It makes you wonder why we offer advice gained from years of experience - are we masochists here do you think? Or are we sadists, telling the hurtful truth !

Spank me baby, you know I like it!!!!!!!

 

[kelmayo77]

attacked! I felt attacked not regards your opinions but the minute I was accused of being a bad trader and giving every other business a bad name, how dare you and now I reply to an insult with an insult and I am the one being attacked for that also. well one thing has come good out of this I don't give two fig rolls about not getting paid off the customer I am to wound up about this forum to worry about that any more

 

[estwig]

So to summarise, in order of people to blame

1. the client
2. the joiner
3. the wet plaster
4. me
5. the forum

If it wasn't so tragic, you'd laugh!!!



I forgot the gas pipe, it must take responsibility for it's actions, has to be held to account

 

[KateCB]

No need to get wound up about a discussion between people who have an opinion - the thing about this is that you can turn it off, mull over it and take what you can from the opinions and advice expressed.

You will make yourself ill if you let things like this wind you up, seriously, think about everything that has been said - yes there are negatives, but if you re-read without getting cross, there are a lot of positive action points too.

You won't always like, or agree with opinions on the forum, but they are in the main valid...we do have some fun along the way at times, its human nature, just like getting cross when we feel our point has been skewed - as I said, take the good, forget the bad, and deal with your situation as best you can; you learn from it, if you feel able, let us know the outcome and how you achieved a happy ending, and perhaps we can learn from your experience, just like we learn from others here.

 

[LABJES]

Unfortunately the general public are wiser thesedays and there are so many firms who treat finishing jobs with low priority once they have been paid, it's not surprising people react this way, and not surprising firms do it when they want to move onto another job for another deposit. It's cashflow. It's a shame as all companies are tarred with the same 'cowboy' brush but who can blame consumers. I run a business and deal with these sorts of issues with payments but I can say even sitting on both sides of the business/consumer fence I wouldn't dream of paying a contractor in full until the job was finished. The customer is probably worried to death that you wont return and no amount of assurance will make them trust you. You need to get into a position if possible where you can finance each job throught to completion and take the pressure off yourself and the customer. It always concerns consumers when tradespeople keep asking for money. You are basically telling the customer you have no money and it really won't instill confidence. Take a reasonable deposit with order and get the balance on full completion.

 

[Jonathanus]

the plasterer finished yesterday the skirting could not be fitted against wet plaster! now who is making assumptions?

 

[kelmayo77]

Hi, well the outcome is she has paid majority and is leaving the remainder payment with her mother in law who will let the joiner in the house to complete the work, this is more down to the husband being a bit more sympathetic and understanding as the wife made it very clear that her husband was being very generous and if she had her way we would have to wait. The husband agreed to pay for the fire and the gas run as we had agreed the £4.50 per meter and he had a ruff idea of the price on this in the beginning so I don't know why the wife quibbled the price. He held back all the cost involved in actually building the chimney breast as this was where the work is still to be carried out. I think this may have caused a domestic when they left the shop I must stress that she told me that all work so far has been carried out to the highest standard and she is very impressed, her only issue is that we asked for payment!

Now I am going to ask another question and be kind with your answers... from this we have decided that we will ask for 50% deposit (mainly on more expensive items) and ask that goods are paid for in full before they leave our shop or on the day of delivery. This is what other fire shops are doing and if you buy from a b&q you would pay up first and then pay your fitter also internet selling sites take full payment on ordering so what do you think?

 

[estwig]

Glad it's worked out for you, your customer playing ball like that restores your faith in human nature.

As for your question, I been seeling to Joe Public for twenty years, as a double glazer, then a chippy, then a builder and now I do drawings and planning permission.

I've always worked on the basis of a low deposit, if any, then stage payments. It's easy to set the stage payments up to get the majority of the money long before completing the work, so you cover yourself and leave the punter with an amount to pay on satisafctory completion. Put all this in writng as part of your quote, so eveyone knows where they are. Could give you the edge over your competition who wants lots up front, the punters are very untrusting.

 

[KateCB]

Although I agree with Estwig to a degree, it depends on the amount - if you buy from B&Q, you are taking it home to do it yourself or get someone else to do it, so you pay as you buy, and if it is a large item, such as a kitchen or bathroom they have credit facilities - OR you pay as you buy.....regardless of the amount.

A 50% deposit is typical in MY business for bespoke goods, but a 10% deposit was asked by the window company who worked on my house, which I though was low given the amount involved - I think you have to have a policy that covers you for the cost of the materials that you may have to buy in for the customer and the labour cost - once that is covered the rest is effectively profit, so it is up to you then to do the job and get the balance.

Staged payments are OK, and tbh I did this with my kitchen, however I did it because frankly I didn't trust the company who did the work due to several odd things that happened after the contract was signed.......again though I would have though it depends on the amount involved>

One of our oversea suppliers has the following rules:
1. Order value under £500 = payment in full at time of order.
2. Order value over £500 but less than £2,000 = 40% desposit, balance payable on completion.
3. Orders over £2,000, 30% desposit, 30% 1 week before goods arrival, balance on completion.

For this supplier of course our turnaround time from palcing order to receipt of goods is 12 - 16 weeks, so it is a longer period than perhaps you will deal with?

It might help you decide how/what % to charge - you don't want it too low that it coudl still cowst you, but you don't want to make it so high that the customer feels robbed before you begin work

Glad it all worked out, and well done for hanging in here - see, we can be very helpful and supportive at times, but then again we can be acerbic too....!