Advice on service offered

[SH247]

Afternoon all,

I'm looking to supply and provide installation for domestic home security products...CCTV, Alarms, security Lighting etc.

Doing the installations myself is going to be far too much work with everything else and I was considering contracting professionals (electricians, CCTV installers etc) to do it on my behalf and maybe adding a mark up to the price they would generally install for. This would also allow for me to offer installation services on a wider geographical basis than doing them myself.

Would it be best to take payment directly from customers, ask for invoices from contractors and then pay them monthly?



Should I seek advice regarding writing the contracts? If so, from whom and what are the costs involved?

Just wondered what advice you could give and what your general opinions are on this? Any comments welcomed...

 

[NewGardenStyle]

Do you have experience in this sector?

 

[Root 66 Woodshop]

Who will be specking the job?

Who will be providing the services on the system for when a camera goes down on the customer can't work out how to use the NVR or DVR?

How would you target the customer? do you already have a customer base?

Who's to blame when things go wrong?

Why would you want to sub-contract to an Electrician to install CCTV or alarms?

 

[estwig]

A logistical nightmare, with low margins and a high probability of fook ups!

 

[SH247]

A logistical nightmare, with low margins and a high probability of fook ups!

Thanks for the response, why do you think it would be a logistical nightmare? I do understand it would be challenging.

As for the margins, they'd be next to nothing on installations but higher on products.

Who will be specking the job?

Who will be providing the services on the system for when a camera goes down on the customer can't work out how to use the NVR or DVR?

How would you target the customer? do you already have a customer base?

Who's to blame when things go wrong?

Why would you want to sub-contract to an Electrician to install CCTV or alarms?

I would spec the jobs local to me, otherwise, telephone discussions/emails with customers to work out their needs, and would be written in the contract to expect professional installers to work out logistics of setting the system up.

We would look to provide ongoing support over phone and if any issues with systems need rectifying would look to contact installer to resolve.

We would take liability over product faulting and installer would take liability over faulty installations.

-
The alternative to all of this is to simply not provide installations.

Thanks for the replies, nothing is better and more productive than scrutiny!

 

[Root 66 Woodshop]

OK...

With all due respect, what kind of experience do you have?

Let's play a scenario... so you can understand what I mean...

You go out and spec a job, you win said job - engineer goes out to site to install on your behalf... during the installation it becomes apparent that cameras XY & Z are not suitable for the job, therefore the engineer contacts you and informs you - what do you do?

A. Tell the engineer to install what you have spec'd and that you will speak to the customer as you've suggested the installation therefore it is your decision to make a change to the spec... but this will cost an additional £X - who pays for this?
B. Tell the engineer to install what he thinks best! you don't have time to discuss it with him as you're on another site specking another job.
C. Re-address the entire system's requirements.

 

[Root 66 Woodshop]

Thanks for the response, why do you think it would be a logistical nightmare? I do understand it would be challenging.

As for the margins, they'd be next to nothing on installations but higher on products.

Sorry, this is incorrect.

I would spec the jobs local to me, otherwise, telephone discussions/emails with customers to work out their needs, and would be written in the contract to expect professional installers to work out logistics of setting the system up.

See previous reply - again, this wouldn't work... sorry.

We would look to provide ongoing support over phone and if any issues with systems need rectifying would look to contact installer to resolve.

At who's cost?

We would take liability over product faulting and installer would take liability over faulty installations.

How would you be liable for a product fault?... that would be the manufacturers guarantee, however most distributors don't offer a replacement scheme, therefore you would have to have a replacement ready to hand to install so that the system isn't by default compromised while the faulty product is tested by the manufacturer.

-
The alternative to all of this is to simply not provide installations.

Thanks for the replies, nothing is better and more productive than scrutiny!

By which means, would then make this entire thread pointless would it not?... what I mean is you'd look at becoming a distributor rather than an installer... that is an even bigger game of fish you'd be getting involved in and you're margins would be even less.

 

[SH247]

Sorry, this is incorrect.

Why is it incorrect? I understand margins aren't great on CCTV bought directly from uk distributors but I am looking at stocking other products with much higher margins, there are products that can be bought directly from manufacturer.[/QUOTE]

See previous reply - again, this wouldn't work... sorry.

Why ?

How would you be liable for a product fault?... that would be the manufacturers guarantee, however most distributors don't offer a replacement scheme, therefore you would have to have a replacement ready to hand to install so that the system isn't by default compromised while the faulty product is tested by the manufacturer.

In that case we would only be liable for products not covered by manufacturers guarantee.

By which means, would then make this entire thread pointless would it not?... what I mean is you'd look at becoming a distributor rather than an installer... that is an even bigger game of fish you'd be getting involved in and you're margins would be even less.

No it wouldn't make the thread pointless, if it comes to a point where it's clear that offering installation is redundant then it's the opposite of pointless, it's saved me the headache of giving it a go and failing!

 

[estwig]

It's just another inept idea, with no legs.

I can't be bothered to save you from "the headache of giving it a go and failing", or more accurately, giving it at least a bit of thought.

 

[Root 66 Woodshop]

Why is it incorrect? I understand margins aren't great on CCTV bought directly from uk distributors but I am looking at stocking other products with much higher margins, there are products that can be bought directly from manufacturer.

The other products you stock will have no effect on your margins for the CCTV products

Why ?

I assume you've not read the previous post as you've not replied to that one

In that case we would only be liable for products not covered by manufacturers guarantee.

No... not true at all... majority of CCTV products come with a minimum of 2 years manufacturers warranty, once that is up... they're not liable likewise neither are you... however if your sub-contractor damages something on installation then they're liable... likewise if a customer damages something, they're liable...

My actual initial question was...

Who's to blame when things go wrong?

No mention of warranties, you started talking about liability for a product fault...

No it wouldn't make the thread pointless, if it comes to a point where it's clear that offering installation is redundant then it's the opposite of pointless, it's saved me the headache of giving it a go and failing!

But if it comes to that point, then your questions would be different

 

[SH247]

It's just another inept idea, with no legs.

I can't be bothered to save you from "the headache of giving it a go and failing", or more accurately, giving it at least a bit of thought.

I think we are all aware that no matter what you say on this forum, there will always be the odd weightless negative comment. In my opinion, the whole f%#ng point in these forums is to run thoughts by people so they can support/argue against them and save people headache or (heaven forbid) point people in the right direction!

 

[Root 66 Woodshop]

I think we are all aware that no matter what you say on this forum, there will always be the odd weightless negative comment. In my opinion, the whole f%#ng point in these forums is to run thoughts by people so they can support/argue against them and save people headache or (heaven forbid) point people in the right direction!

While you're replying to another member, and while I agree with what you're saying here... we can't point you in the right direction if you yourself are not sure what direction you want to head in yourself...

as the saying goes... You can lead a Horse to water, but you can't make him drink it.

With all due respect, I've asked you a couple of questions and you're either A. not willing to answer, B, unable to answer or C deflecting the question with a question because you really have no idea on what is entailed within this particular industry.

I'm trying to help you make a decision, but I can't help you if you can't or won't answer the questions... one question that I didn't even ask and you've still not replied too, was...

Do you have experience in this sector?

Let me add to this...

Do you have experience in providing a quotation based on a customers requirement for a product other than the service that they will require?

The reason that I'm asking this is because, if you don't go to site and quote for a product to be installed and win the job, install and the system that you've designed fails because it's not fit for purpose... you've got a whole boat load of crap coming your way from the customer, trading standards etc. etc.

With your reply of:

I would spec the jobs local to me, otherwise, telephone discussions/emails with customers to work out their needs, and would be written in the contract to expect professional installers to work out logistics of setting the system up.

Realistically tells me that you don't have any experience at all... therefore could end up in extremely deep water.

An engineer cannot logically set up a system if the design of the system is incorrect.

 

[APW]

ok getting back to the business side of it which is MONEY. You basically want to be a middle man between customers and CCTV installers but being a middleman means the price goes up to adjust for your fee.

How would you be competitive compared to an actual alarm company which has fitters and a reputation and doesn't need to worry about being the middleman?

 

[SH247]

While you're replying to another member, and while I agree with what you're saying here... we can't point you in the right direction if you yourself are not sure what direction you want to head in yourself...

as the saying goes... You can lead a Horse to water, but you can't make him drink it.

With all due respect, I've asked you a couple of questions and you're either A. not willing to answer, B, unable to answer or C deflecting the question with a question because you really have no idea on what is entailed within this particular industry.

I'm trying to help you make a decision, but I can't help you if you can't or won't answer the questions... one question that I didn't even ask and you've still not replied too, was...

Do you have experience in this sector?

Let me add to this...

Do you have experience in providing a quotation based on a customers requirement for a product other than the service that they will require?

The reason that I'm asking this is because, if you don't go to site and quote for a product to be installed and win the job, install and the system that you've designed fails because it's not fit for purpose... you've got a whole boat load of crap coming your way from the customer, trading standards etc. etc.

An engineer cannot logically set up a system if the design of the system is incorrect.

Ok, so to start I have to apologise for any questions I've missed - I was away on holiday when posting this and only had an old smart phone that was extremely clunky to use which was more effort than it was worth when trying to reply to all of these points. So... I'll be completely honest and straight to the point - I have installed CCTV systems before, in my home and my family members home, so I know the basis of how they work. I've got years of experience in Policing environments so the value I would add would be in that area, the service I'm looking to offer is to support communities with proper advice and good security products. The website is going to be set up similar to an e-commerce site, so the CCTV will come in packages, with which the customer can choose the specification depending on their needs...We would offer support when needed. Same going for the alarm systems etc. I'm just at a stage where I'm deciding on whether offering installation is a must or not. As much as I'd like to, clearly I have limited experience in this area and I want to balance the positives with the negatives offering installation as a service instead of just selling the products to consumers like other companies in similar areas.

Thanks @Haunted Worlds for your replies, much appreciated.

ok getting back to the business side of it which is MONEY. You basically want to be a middle man between customers and CCTV installers but being a middleman means the price goes up to adjust for your fee.

How would you be competitive compared to an actual alarm company which has fitters and a reputation and doesn't need to worry about being the middleman?

In theory, for CCTV we would make the sale, make markup on the product itself, contact installers and add a markup to the installation fee. With regards to alarms, there are Alarms that are self fitting, and I have spoken to other Alarm companies that would pay commission on sales.

Another example being vehicle trackers, in which I would buy tracker at cost price, sell on and the manufacturing company makes money from the subscription fees.

 

[Root 66 Woodshop]

OK. Sorry, but with all due respect SH247 if I had the little knowledge that you have, i.e. installing at your home and families homes does not make you an installer, nor does it make you a qualified person to install or for that matter spec a job... Sorry, but this is not the line of work you should be doing... unless of course you're going to attend College and gain the correct qualifications to do so, as of which... I'll see you in 3-4 years...

What you have to understand is that an Alarm system and a CCTV system must and should always be installed by a relevant engineer within a company and not someone who think's he/she has the qualifications to do so with 2-3 family related jobs... doing it at your home or family members home is one thing, doing it as a business is a completely different ball game... Don't get me wrong, I too can fit CCTV - I too can install Alarms even Access Control but I do not have the qualifications to verify me being out there on the road installing anything - for the simple reason being that it is:

1. Morally wrong.

2. Unprofessional.

There have been far too many "cowboys" out there doing exactly what you're suggesting that you're going to do, I mean... C'mon you're planning on installing an Alarm that:

1. Will not be suitable for the job and most importantly

2. a DIY alarm... how would you connect such an alarm to a main circuit/distribution board exactly?

Such alarms that you've mentioned are DIY jobs for someone who is wanting to install a cost effective product for themselves at home, do you honestly think that they're going to spend an additional £150 - £300 for an installer from your company... because seriously that is what you'll have to be charging to install, otherwise you'll be losing money hand over fist... some of the DIY Alarms out there are ridiculous when it comes to the instructions, you need a degree just to read some of the crap they write in there LOL! Look at the ERA Alarms and MiGuard (Once Response Electronics - sold at B&Q and others alike)... they're bog standard, below par and not suitable for an "Alarm Company" to be installing, trust me... I know!

The website is going to be set up similar to an e-commerce site, so the CCTV will come in packages, with which the customer can choose the specification depending on their needs...We would offer support when needed. Same going for the alarm systems etc.

You can't possibly think that all alarms and CCTV installations are the same? Seriously...

A 3 bedroom terraced house will not need the same as a 3 bedroom semi-detached or a detached house, therefore how can you sell a package online? How can you expect the end user to know exactly what they want, when even you don't know what they want?

Sorry, this is all wrong and you've already failed at the first hurdle... CCTV kits are sold as they are for the DIY'er out there to save themselves money, hell even Maplin's got it wrong, where are they now?!

Trust me when I say this... A Professional installer will not install a basic kit off the shelf.

 

[Root 66 Woodshop]

For both CCTV and Alarms you have to be able to WALK the property - what you're proposing to do is let the customer walk the property and suffer the consequences when it all goes wrong... because that day when one of your customers contacts you and says they've had a break in, nothing was caught on camera because they didn't have a camera to cover that area, I can guarantee you'll be well, you made the purchase... you spec'd it... we didn't... that is on you, we're not to blame... Or are you going to guarantee all the installation's that your company doesn't do? again throwing money away? trust me, you can't afford it.

Wrong, Wrong Wrong. Where's the service in that exactly?

 

[BusterBloodvessel]

I'm sorry to be blunt, but you need to give this idea up and look for something new.

1. You appear to have little or no experience in this segment, other than fitting an alarm for yourself and a couple of friends. That is not enough for you to understand the intricacies of speccing (sp?!) up, quoting, or selling systems.

2. You have no prior work in the industry to understand how it operates or utilise existing contacts and opportunities.

3.

the service I'm looking to offer is to support communities with proper advice and good security products.

But what do you know to be able to give that advice? I refer back to point 1

4.

In theory, for CCTV we would make the sale, make markup on the product itself, contact installers and add a markup to the installation fee. With regards to alarms, there are Alarms that are self fitting, and I have spoken to other Alarm companies that would pay commission on sales.

Why would anybody use you? If I wanted an alarm installing, I would ask about or Google for an alarm fitter, and ask him/her to sort it all out for me.

Why do you think you can get special access to buy things at a lower price and sell at a markup? Do you have some guaranteed volume to allow you to buy at a trade/wholesale price? There are probably existing fitters that spend more with alarm manufacturers/distributors than you do already, therefore you are not going to be able to compete.


Like I said, sorry, but this smacks of trying to create a niche that doesn't exist and that there is no requirement for.

 

[Root 66 Woodshop]

Another example being vehicle trackers, in which I would buy tracker at cost price, sell on and the manufacturing company makes money from the subscription fees.

We've looked into this as a side line about 4-5 years ago, not really worth the hassle especially when the money is in subscription fees and not in the product itself... plus the main breadwinners out there sell directly to businesses or Joe blogs therefore would make you redundant very quickly... Then there's the more secure products that are available now which renders trackers obsolete, give it a couple of years and a vehicle tracker will be gone and the new technology which is now available which stops the vehicle from being taken completely will be the most sought after vehicle protection kit available.

https://autowatch.co.uk/products/security-solutions/autowatch-immobiliser-systems/68-ghost-product

Here's a tip, if you want to get into something - hit these before everyone else gets involved... just remember though, if you install one of these and you kill the car... it's a possible £3000 - £4000 cost for repair.

If you can afford it - go for it... if not, like the other idea... stay well clear

 

[SH247]

OK. Sorry, but with all due respect SH247 if I had the little knowledge that you have, i.e. installing at your home and families homes does not make you an installer, nor does it make you a qualified person to install or for that matter spec a job... Sorry, but this is not the line of work you should be doing... unless of course you're going to attend College and gain the correct qualifications to do so, as of which... I'll see you in 3-4 years...

What you have to understand is that an Alarm system and a CCTV system must and should always be installed by a relevant engineer within a company and not someone who think's he/she has the qualifications to do so with 2-3 family related jobs... doing it at your home or family members home is one thing, doing it as a business is a completely different ball game... Don't get me wrong, I too can fit CCTV - I too can install Alarms even Access Control but I do not have the qualifications to verify me being out there on the road installing anything - for the simple reason being that it is:

1. Morally wrong.

2. Unprofessional.

There have been far too many "cowboys" out there doing exactly what you're suggesting that you're going to do, I mean... C'mon you're planning on installing an Alarm that:

1. Will not be suitable for the job and most importantly

2. a DIY alarm... how would you connect such an alarm to a main circuit/distribution board exactly?

Such alarms that you've mentioned are DIY jobs for someone who is wanting to install a cost effective product for themselves at home, do you honestly think that they're going to spend an additional £150 - £300 for an installer from your company... because seriously that is what you'll have to be charging to install, otherwise you'll be losing money hand over fist... some of the DIY Alarms out there are ridiculous when it comes to the instructions, you need a degree just to read some of the crap they write in there LOL! Look at the ERA Alarms and MiGuard (Once Response Electronics - sold at B&Q and others alike)... they're bog standard, below par and not suitable for an "Alarm Company" to be installing, trust me... I know!




You can't possibly think that all alarms and CCTV installations are the same? Seriously...

A 3 bedroom terraced house will not need the same as a 3 bedroom semi-detached or a detached house, therefore how can you sell a package online? How can you expect the end user to know exactly what they want, when even you don't know what they want?

Sorry, this is all wrong and you've already failed at the first hurdle... CCTV kits are sold as they are for the DIY'er out there to save themselves money, hell even Maplin's got it wrong, where are they now?!

Trust me when I say this... A Professional installer will not install a basic kit off the shelf.

I wasn't saying that all alarm and CCTV installations are the same, I'm well aware of the differences in requirements for different people. Different packages cover these requirements though, Analog/IP - Motion sensitive? - How many cameras needed to cover ? etc...

So how about scrapping the installation services and only selling products as a retailer? The CCTV products could subsidise the other products that I would be selling that have a much higher markup bought directly from the manufacturer instead of through a distributor. I'm well aware that I'm not qualified and the last thing I want to become is a cowboy. I was merely airing the thoughts I was having about offering installation services alongside the products we would sell. So far i've invested very very little in this idea and wanted to run things by people to minimise risk of making mistakes. If I was as boneheaded as some of you may think, I'd have just thought screw it, started offering installations, gone full steam ahead without stopping to think and likely crashed and burned very quickly. I'm in no rush with this project and I want to do things right.

I'm sorry to be blunt, but you need to give this idea up and look for something new.

1. You appear to have little or no experience in this segment, other than fitting an alarm for yourself and a couple of friends. That is not enough for you to understand the intricacies of speccing (sp?!) up, quoting, or selling systems.

2. You have no prior work in the industry to understand how it operates or utilise existing contacts and opportunities.

3.


But what do you know to be able to give that advice? I refer back to point 1


Why would anybody use you? If I wanted an alarm installing, I would ask about or Google for an alarm fitter, and ask him/her to sort it all out for me.

Why do you think you can get special access to buy things at a lower price and sell at a markup? Do you have some guaranteed volume to allow you to buy at a trade/wholesale price? There are probably existing fitters that spend more with alarm manufacturers/distributors than you do already, therefore you are not going to be able to compete.


Like I said, sorry, but this smacks of trying to create a niche that doesn't exist and that there is no requirement for.

Thanks for your response, as I said I've had year of policing experience dealing with victims of crime, so I know that there is a market for someone out there to educate and provide clear, concise and up-to-date advice and selling products off the back of it. The main driving force for this would be the advice and information.... content is king and all that. I'm planning on going door-to-door with this initially and having the website running alongside.

I don't think I can get special access, products like CCTV would be bought at Trade price - I've already signed up for trade accounts with distributors so know what the margins are. And there are multiple other security products have higher margins that can be bought from manufacturer and sold for a good markup.

We've looked into this as a side line about 4-5 years ago, not really worth the hassle especially when the money is in subscription fees and not in the product itself... plus the main breadwinners out there sell directly to businesses or Joe blogs therefore would make you redundant very quickly... Then there's the more secure products that are available now which renders trackers obsolete, give it a couple of years and a vehicle tracker will be gone and the new technology which is now available which stops the vehicle from being taken completely will be the most sought after vehicle protection kit available.

https://autowatch.co.uk/products/security-solutions/autowatch-immobiliser-systems/68-ghost-product

Here's a tip, if you want to get into something - hit these before everyone else gets involved... just remember though, if you install one of these and you kill the car... it's a possible £3000 - £4000 cost for repair.

If you can afford it - go for it... if not, like the other idea... stay well clear

Interesting you should say that! I've spoken to one of autowatch's main competitors who offer very similar products, I completely agree that the money is in the subscription and selling to businesses with fleets of vehicles but there has to be some margin for me selling to domestic end-users that I'm in contact with face to face, surely?



- I'm not going to hype myself up to be something I'm not and I've most definitely not got an ego like many others on this forum. This concept is all just an idea at the moment and I've not invested much at all in it so far. It's my first real business so I'm learning, and learning fast. I may be biting off more than I can chew in a lot of ways with this concept and I'm almost leaning towards dipping my toe into the business world with something more simple to start. I've bought a couple of domains and have supply chain for other products too.

 

[SH247]

@Haunted Worlds - Do you mind me asking what it is you do? I'm assuming you've not got this knowledge from 'Haunted Worlds'?

 

[Root 66 Woodshop]

OK,

After reading your last reply... I have a suggestion. You say that you have years of policing communities... so by that I assume that you're an Ex Copper? Rather than looking at providing products, believe me products can and do fail... why not run with the Advisory field rather than supplying products?

You can advise a customer to use local MLA or UKLA Locksmiths, pass on the invaluable information of SSAIB installers, SIA Security companies etc etc... there's a price to pay for such information, get into your local security companies come up with deals with these people, then get out there pushing the security advisory/consultant business rather than putting faith into a product?

Sell yourself rather than a product - only you can fail then.

PM Sent in reply to your last question.

 

[APW]

You haven't mentioned why a customer would use your service, your USP?

If you sell a package, how are you going to pay fitters? How many fitters will you have on your books and what do they charge per job? What if all your fitters are busy doing other jobs what will you do?

What if a fitter turns up and the customer tells him what you charged them and the fitter just undercuts you?

You are relying on self employed fitters turning away their work to come and work for you for maybe less money.

What if your fitter doesn't turn up, does a dangerous job, damages something in the house or steals from customers?

As far as a customer is concern their contract is with you and no one else so that will be your problem.

Your company is at the mercy of people who won't care about your business

For those reasons alone I wouldn't waste any money on the venture, you need a business were you have more control over what happens.