Abusive employee - how to handle?

[ChopStuey88]

Needing some advice for our family business. I will try and make this short and to the point!

• Family business which has been operating for 20+ years
• Owned and run by myself and wife
• Only employ 2 staff members
• One of which is problematic and always been 'hard to deal with'
• He continually picks on my wife to vent his attitude problems.
• This employee has recently aggressively approached my wife asking in a forceful and aggressive manner that he wants a pay rise, demanding x amount per hour
• One other example of many others involves him insinuating that myself (male) and our other employee (male) spend too much time together!
• Only approaches my wife to vent his attitude - never with me
• Very rude to customers on occasions (he is not in customer facing role)
• We do not have 'formal' written contracts or policies in place - certainly no HR department to rely on!

There has been incidents like this over the years however nothing has been done about it. We are at the point of taking action against him for this behaviour.

I would like to think there is small business owners here like ourselves who understand issues faced in day to day running and its not easy, approaching issues like this can be very off putting as it can severely effect a small business and cause unwanted tensions.

My thinking is to issue a formal warning in the way of a written letter, this being the first 'official' warning? Would this be advisable? Getting solicitor involved seems unnecessary at this stage however if anyone can advise that would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Mark T Jones]

There are 2 points I've picked up on here:

1. Forceful & aggressive manner

2. Rude to customers

Do you have evidence?

Can you accurately/reliably convey what you mean by rude/forceful/aggressive?

Anyway @Newchodge will have the answer

 

[ChopStuey88]

There are 2 points I've picked up on here:

1. Forceful & aggressive manner

2. Rude to customers

Do you have evidence?

Can you accurately/reliably convey what you mean by rude/forceful/aggressive?

Anyway @Newchodge will have the answer

1. Shouting, rude tone of voice, mood swings (doesnt talk some days but still 'does the job')
2. Customers have verbally told us on occasions that they do not like the way 'that man' spoke to them, which is quite embarrassing

Its very hard to describe and trying to convey the aggressive attitude is very hard on here. He also constantly has a go at our other employee (again not to his face) about him not working hard enough or being late - this employee is a hard worker and we do not have any issues with him.

I have no doubts that he would get physical - small man syndrome at its best here

 

[JEREMY HAWKE]

Sack him
Just for your reference back in the old days I would have chased him out of the yard with a sawn off railway sleeper but @Newchodge demanded that this must stop

 

[ChopStuey88]

Sack him
Just for your reference back in the old days I would have chased him out of the yard with a sawn off railway sleeper but @Newchodge demanded that this must stop

Sacking would be ideal - however his role is crucial to the business and replacement would be difficult but not impossible. He knows this and plays on this fact.

Also redundancy pay would be required to be paid out I would imagine if we didnt follow the correct channels to get rid.

 

[Newchodge]

Your first difficulty is that you have taught this employee that their behaviour is acceptable. You cannot take formal action about 'acceptable' behaviour. So that needs dealing with.

I suggest you decide on the issues that are most urgent to deal with, probably:

• attitude to rheir employer which, as she is female and the attitude to the male employer is not the same, may be sexual harassment.
• attitude to customers, even if not customer facing the attitude to customers must always be polite.

You then invite them in writing to a discussion about 'matters of concern'. You calmly explain to them why there is an issue and allow them to comment. Listen to their comments and consider them. You then explain that unless their behaviour immediately improves you will have to take formal action. Wrote to them after the meeting listing exacrly what you expect to improve and confirming that further action will take place if there is no sustained improvement.

I appreciate that in a small business it is difficult to manage staff, but you and your wife must do it. And you must do it face to face. Your wife, for example, may need to say - 'please do not speak to me lkie that'. Writing letters of confirmation is fine. Just writing letters is pointless.

The next time there is an issue you invite them to a fomal disciplinary investigation and follow your disciplinary procedure, which you will have produced by then (together with contracts! There is no point in starting the process and trhen not following up.

 

[JEREMY HAWKE]

Sacking would be ideal - however his role is crucial to the business and replacement would be difficult but not impossible. He knows this and plays on this fact.

Also redundancy pay would be required to be paid out I would imagine if we didnt follow the correct channels to get rid.

If his presence is damaging to your business then he has to go

 

[fisicx]

What is his role? How long would it take to train someone to do this?

Start disciplinary process today. Don’t prevaricate.

 

[Newchodge]

Sacking would be ideal - however his role is crucial to the business and replacement would be difficult but not impossible. He knows this and plays on this fact.

Also redundancy pay would be required to be paid out I would imagine if we didnt follow the correct channels to get rid.

My earlier advice assumes they have at least 2 years' service. If they don't please follow Jeremy Hawke's advice, although without the inherent violence.

Redundancy pay is only payable if comeone is sacked for redundancy. They would be sacked for misconduct.

"role is crucial to the business and replacement would be difficult but not impossible."

What would you do if this employee walked under a big red bus tomorrow? You would find a way to cope without them.

 

[JEREMY HAWKE]

appreciate that in a small business it is difficult to manage staff, but you and your wife must do it. And you must do it face to face. Your wife, for example, may need to say - 'please do not speak to me lkie that'. Writing letters of confirmation is fine. Just writing letters is pointless.

The next time there is an issue you invite them to a fomal disciplinary investigation and follow your disciplinary procedure, which you will have produced by then (together with contracts! There is no point in starting the process and trhen not following up.

Just to add to this when you get him in the office it is helpful to have someone you trust with you This maybe another local business person that you get on with
I have sat in on these meetings for a friend running a local haulage company and it just makes the employee aware that this is very serious

 

[ChopStuey88]

Your first difficulty is that you have taught this employee that their behaviour is acceptable. You cannot take formal action about 'acceptable' behaviour. So that needs dealing with.

I suggest you decide on the issues that are most urgent to deal with, probably:

• attitude to rheir employer which, as she is female and the attitude to the male employer is not the same, may be sexual harassment.
• attitude to customers, even if not customer facing the attitude to customers must always be polite.

You then invite them in writing to a discussion about 'matters of concern'. You calmly explain to them why there is an issue and allow them to comment. Listen to their comments and consider them. You then explain that unless their behaviour immediately improves you will have to take formal action. Wrote to them after the meeting listing exacrly what you expect to improve and confirming that further action will take place if there is no sustained improvement.

I appreciate that in a small business it is difficult to manage staff, but you and your wife must do it. And you must do it face to face. Your wife, for example, may need to say - 'please do not speak to me lkie that'. Writing letters of confirmation is fine. Just writing letters is pointless.

The next time there is an issue you invite them to a fomal disciplinary investigation and follow your disciplinary procedure, which you will have produced by then (together with contracts! There is no point in starting the process and trhen not following up.

Cyndy - Thanks so much for this advice.

Say if we were to discuss the concerns with him and further inappropriate behaviour occurred - given we do not have 'disciplinary procedures' in place, can we still legally issue formal action against them? Would it be advisable to discuss this with a solicitor at this stage or wait until after first discussing?

Evidence - What evidence would be deemed necessary if this went further? Are we talking witnesses/cctv etc?

Redundancy pay - Under what circumstances would this employee not qualify for a redundancy payout? We are quite certain he try's to push us to turn around and say 'your sacked get out' to which he will quite happily leave and retrieve his redundancy pay...

 

[ChopStuey88]

Service is over 20 years - he was employed at the business before we took it over

Our company changed to limited a few years ago - does this change anything?

Thanks for your help!

 

[Mark T Jones]

What would you do if this employee walked under a big red bus tomorrow? You would find a way to cope without them.

Why is it always a bus? Surely this is some kind of prejudice?

 

[ChopStuey88]

Why is it always a bus? Surely this is some kind of prejudice?

Not enough buses pass our business unfortunately

 

[Newchodge]

given we do not have 'disciplinary procedures' in place, can we still legally issue formal action against them?

It would be a bad idea. Get on the ACAS website and look at their templates.

Would it be advisable to discuss this with a solicitor at this stage or wait until after first discussing?

I wouldn't discuss this with a solicitor at any stage. But then I do this for a living.

What evidence would be deemed necessary if this went further? Are we talking witnesses/cctv

Whatever evidence you have, written statement of someone complaining and describing his behaviour. CCTV if you have it, but it may not be very obvious visually.

Under what circumstances would this employee not qualify for a redundancy payout?

He would only ever qualify for redudancy pay if he was being made redundant, that is the employer's need for the work he does has reduced or ended. If you think it might work you could have a protected conversation with him and offer him money to leave. I would recommend taking action first.

 

[Newchodge]

Why is it always a bus? Surely this is some kind of prejudice?

I was born and brought up in London. All the buses were red. And big.

 

[fisicx]

...given we do not have 'disciplinary procedures' in place

Get some written!

And get someone trained up to do that role. This could be you.

What is is they do that is so special?