Earl
Although my business depends on it we cant go on and on spending money on the roads . We need this money spent on the railways we are a small country and we need to reduce the traffic on the roads . More freight and passengers need to go on the railways Im not one to talk about the past but they made such a big mistake digging up the old tracks in the 60s !
Although my business depends on it we cant go on and on spending money on the roads . We need this money spent on the railways we are a small country and we need to reduce the traffic on the roads . More freight and passengers need to go on the railways Im not one to talk about the past but they made such a big mistake digging up the old tracks in the 60s !
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- Original Poster
- #3
I can't see rail being an effective form of transport for most purposes based on.
1, cost.
2 convenience.
3 lack if flexibility.
4 lack of speed to final destination.
5 people seem to like driving.
http://www.railway-technical.com/statistics.shtml
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I think a lot of people would use the railways if they were re-invented, i.e. new routes, new stations, etc.
The trouble is that the world has moved on, yet the stations and routes have remained the same, meaning that they're of little use to many people.
Take a couple of routes that I regularly take, stations at both ends are convenient enough.
Firstly, Morecambe to York takes about 2.5 hours by road (90 miles), but takes 3.5 hours by train plus commuting time home to station. The only trains stop at every tiny station, are horribly old and uncomfortable and very crowded once they get near Leeds.
Then, Morecambe to Kendal, 22 miles, takes 35 minutes by road, but takes over an hour by train, plus commuting time home to station. The thing is that even though Morecambe and Kendal are adjoining towns at each end of the A road - you need to go on three different trains, and as per usual, the connections cause the time as the actual on-train travel is probably only 20-25 minutes or so.
Lancaster is a horribly congested city for road users, yet the trains are pretty much useless as the station is at the opposite end of the town from where most people work and there are few stations/trains that would be suitable for the average commuter. It's a classic example of where things could really be turned around by new stations and making more use of rarely used tracks.
If they're going to spend £37.5bn on the "same old", then no, not worth it, but if they're going to open new stations, new lines, more direct services, etc., then it's money well spent and if they do it right (i.e. what people want), then it could pay for itself.
The trouble is that the world has moved on, yet the stations and routes have remained the same, meaning that they're of little use to many people.
Take a couple of routes that I regularly take, stations at both ends are convenient enough.
Firstly, Morecambe to York takes about 2.5 hours by road (90 miles), but takes 3.5 hours by train plus commuting time home to station. The only trains stop at every tiny station, are horribly old and uncomfortable and very crowded once they get near Leeds.
Then, Morecambe to Kendal, 22 miles, takes 35 minutes by road, but takes over an hour by train, plus commuting time home to station. The thing is that even though Morecambe and Kendal are adjoining towns at each end of the A road - you need to go on three different trains, and as per usual, the connections cause the time as the actual on-train travel is probably only 20-25 minutes or so.
Lancaster is a horribly congested city for road users, yet the trains are pretty much useless as the station is at the opposite end of the town from where most people work and there are few stations/trains that would be suitable for the average commuter. It's a classic example of where things could really be turned around by new stations and making more use of rarely used tracks.
If they're going to spend £37.5bn on the "same old", then no, not worth it, but if they're going to open new stations, new lines, more direct services, etc., then it's money well spent and if they do it right (i.e. what people want), then it could pay for itself.
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Speaking as someone who lived and worked in Lancaster for ten years, where would you suggest putting a new station? Not much room to work with on the side of the river it's currently on, and moving it to the other side of the Lune would take it further away from the centre of town :|
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I'm talking about extra stations, not replacing the ones we have. I agree that, like probably all cities, Lancaster City Centre is now stuck with the current location of the city centre station as there's no-where else left. There were two other stations that were probably better placed for the city centre but both were closed down and neither can be resurrected due to buildings/roads.
For Lancaster, an extra station somewhere serving the south of the city would be sensible. There's already a loop opposite the University - a station has been talked about there for years - that site would be ideally placed to take loads of traffic off the roads, i.e. for both students and staff.
Also, a new station close to the housing in Heysham would open up the railways to commuters etc living there. Better services to Heysham docks would enable workers at the docks, power stations, and to travel by train instead of roads. The track is already in place, but only two trains run each day (both at lunchtime) which is pretty useless for workers or school kids.
It's just a shame that the old track beds can't be re-opened as I'm sure there's now a need again. The old Lancaster to Morecambe line would have been ideal for a station for White Lund. The old Lancaster to Hornby line would be good for commuters from the Lune Valley and facilitate replacement of the Green Ayre Station (much closer to the bus station and east of the city than castle station).
That's what I mean about not just spending more money on what we've already got. It should be spent on new lines and stations, but as always, the politicians take the simple/easy option which no doubt will be nothing more than adding a coach to trains or putting even more trains on the busy city routes. Thinking outside the box for new routes/stations isn't on their radar as they're all short-termists and shy away from confrontation.
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No point spending any money on rail, unless they make it cheaper.
Last weekend, we went from Aberdeen to Dundee (circa 60 miles). £28 return each. For a few reasons, driving wasn't possible, so for 8 of us, it was £224. If circumstances were different (as they normally are), we could have driven two cars down for around £25 fuel (max) per car. Add on £5 per car to park, and youve saved well over £150 for a simple 120 mile round trip.
Fares need to be cut drastically, to around a 1/3rd of the price imo, before they will be used in any considerable way to cut down road traffic.
Last weekend, we went from Aberdeen to Dundee (circa 60 miles). £28 return each. For a few reasons, driving wasn't possible, so for 8 of us, it was £224. If circumstances were different (as they normally are), we could have driven two cars down for around £25 fuel (max) per car. Add on £5 per car to park, and youve saved well over £150 for a simple 120 mile round trip.
Fares need to be cut drastically, to around a 1/3rd of the price imo, before they will be used in any considerable way to cut down road traffic.
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I see where you're coming from now. Yes, a station serving the university and Galgate would be ideal; I think there also used to be one adjacent to the Yorkshire House pub that's long since been demolished and built over along with the line it served?
Some of the old local lines in urban areas are getting resurrected as tramways now, which still requires large investment and commitment, but not quite so much career-staking at high governmental levels. Not sure if the track beds around Lancaster, Morecambe and Heysham are still intact enough for that to be a solution there, though.
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I think intercity upgrades are feasible and we need more across the country rather than radiating out of London. I'm travelling from Stockport to Newcastle in a couple of week and but for the fact I fancy a beer or two, the train does not exceed the speed of a car at any point until i change train at York - I coulc save an hour in each direction by driving.
HS2 is a good idea in principle but the proposal is only to replicate a fairly fast line already, it would be better to improve the links between Liverpool, Birmingham, Manchester, Hull and Newcastle rather than make London connections better.
The other issue with rail, as mentioned before is that they are very inflexible. I recall the Newcastle metro was built to transport workers from the heavy industry along the river. By the time it was finished, there was hardly any industry on the river and the stations that were build are now hardly used.
HS2 is a good idea in principle but the proposal is only to replicate a fairly fast line already, it would be better to improve the links between Liverpool, Birmingham, Manchester, Hull and Newcastle rather than make London connections better.
The other issue with rail, as mentioned before is that they are very inflexible. I recall the Newcastle metro was built to transport workers from the heavy industry along the river. By the time it was finished, there was hardly any industry on the river and the stations that were build are now hardly used.
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I use the trains *alot* and think they are reasonably priced providing you can plan in advance. If you turn up and buy a ticket the same day then yes you get clobbered.
I've been buying a monthly season ticket to go from my local station to kings X and then onwards to city thameslink via St pancras. That costs me £400 a month, so for 20 working days £20 a day. Driving that journey would use about £10 in diesel and then I've got to park and in the city near where I am thats £28 a day.
If I'm doing any distance then I plan the day and the time because if you can specify an exact train its cheap as chips, recent trips Ive done are:
Cardiff to Paddington 1st Class single £10
Liverpool Street to Norwich 1st Class single £18
So I would vote railways everytime, because I love 'em!
Gary
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Agreed in that respect, if you can plan well in advance it can be ok, and even cheap. I think we booked 2 weeks in advance, so not last minute in reality (although last minute in the rail companies eyes I agree!).
£28 a day parking
That's mental that is.
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D
Dave Shaw
Yes planning ahead is pretty key but often people don't have that foresight or luxury - and if you travel at peak times the costs are still high. I've just had to book travel from Manchester to London and (2 weeks in advance) at peak time but advance fares - the cost of 2 singles was £217 and this is just crazy. I did manage to get the cost down by just over £40 by using split tickets (www.fareferret.co.uk) to about £175 but this is more expensive than my holiday flights!
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L
leemason
If we spend money on road we simply encourage more congestion. Studies show that new roads actually generate more traffic. Train is hugely expensive. How about a hi-speed Superbus that will travel at 250km/h and will cost a fraction of the cost of a rail based system to build and run. This is currently being developed in the Netherlands and will be ready to go by 2015: http://www.superbusproject.com/.
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I'd rather the money was divided and spent on several projects. Like sorting out the transport within cities. Bristol for example is a joke, no proper integrated rail / bus system, First Bus can seemingly do and charge whatever they like, the only big modern British city without some sort of metro light rail or tram network etc.
That and some decent, affordable cross country rail links that aren't via London.
That and some decent, affordable cross country rail links that aren't via London.
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- Original Poster
- #17
This is what happens when you combine stupidity with money.:|
Anyone tried holding a straight line at 150 mph in a Ferrari let alone this monstrosity.
Great fun on the M6 at rush hour.
Apparently it was the brain child of the first dutchman in space.
or was it a missprint and should have read "from space"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=sBQkxlN0EYk#!
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L
leemason
This is what happens when you combine stupidity with money.:|
Anyone tried holding a straight line at 150 mph in a Ferrari let alone this monstrosity.
Great fun on the M6 at rush hour.
Apparently it was the brain child of the first dutchman in space.
or was it a missprint and should have read "from space"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=sBQkxlN0EYk#!
Better than massive amounts of money and massive amounts of stupidity: HS2!
The Superbus by the way runs on specifically built concrete runway completely separate from other traffic.
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