Child labour ?

[Silky]

I live opposite a thriving stable and animal farm which is going from strength to strength. It's improved my local area - a derelict farm has now been completely renovated, a children's farm is a popular attraction.

The business is growing rapidly and while I have every admiration for the owners in what they've achieved, there's something that I just can't get my head around morally.

Every weekend I see young girls working from 9am through to 5pm. These girls are unpaid and as young as 9 years old - one of my neighbour's daughters told me the owner claimed she was too young to be paid (but not too young too work???!). The girls lead out the horses each day taking young (paying) riders through the fields. Last week there was an accident when a horse reared and someone was thrown off - the horse was being lead by a 10 year old girl.

The girls are happy as they're spending time with the horses but they're shattered by the end of a long working day, especially in the wind and rain. Occasionally some of the older ones (13 plus) are conscripted to spend an afternoon working in the cafe where again they're unpaid and even have to buy their own lunch and uniforms. A 16 year old neighbour's daughter now apparently is old enough to qualify for her pay of £2.50 an hour.

The 9 year old goes on around 12-14 treks per day - this has brought in a turnover of £240-£280 for the day, for which she gets nothing, except the joy of standing near a horse all day long, come rain or shine.

I'm astounded that the parents allow their girls to work in these circumstances but I suspect it's down to pester power. What I can't reconcile, is how someone can actively exploit the enthusiasm of children in this way - unethically and illegally (?)

Am I wrong to be outraged?

Silky

 

[Zeno]

While I can sort of understand about working with horses (not that I would want to) I can't get why the girls would agree to work in the cafe without pay?

Are you sure there is not more to it? They don't get free riding lessons etc in exchange?

 

[Silky]

They tend to get conscripted into the cafe only for a few hours at a time, so it's not off-putting. My 16 year old neighbour's daughter has been working on the farm for 5 years now, once she reached 15 she got a free lesson in exchange for her day's work. If she'd paid for this lesson it would cost £10. My neighbour herself has been unhappy about the situation but her daughter is horse mad. My kids are too young yet to get swept up in this fervour but I've already warned them that there's not a chance of them getting involved.

Even though the girls are "volunteers", they're told off if they take weekends off without planning or have too many holidays.

To me there's something fundamentally wrong if a business can't run effectively because some 9 year old children are enjoying their school holidays....

Silky

 

[Officebird]

My little girl (almost 5years old) goes horseriding and is sometimes led by young girls in much the same way as you are talking about, but is they run (not a horse person so haven't learnt the terminology) then they have an adult lead. The girls do this unpaid and I have often wondered how they get away with it.

As far as I am aware they don't get free lessons for helping out, they simply do it to be near the horses. I would presume the satble get around it by saying they are volunteers (although I'm not sure how the cafe fits into this).

They have a horse club on a Sat where they get to stay all day and are allowed to do things such as mucking out as well as riding. My little one is too young for this club but I wouldn't let her go there all day anyway, afterall I would like to spend some time with her myself! I wonder if the parents allow their children to work for free as they seem to like it and it means they don't have to find family activities to do? (maybe I'm being a bit cynical?)

It is a bit like child labour and they do make money out of them but the girls probably adore it and at the end of the day they aren't forced into it.

Tough call really as I have mixed feelings on this one.

 

[Officebird]

If she'd paid for this lesson it would cost £10.

This is cheap! I pay £20 plus £1 for hat hire and £1 for boot hire!

 

[Simon-M]

Not sure about the cafe bit but one of my little'ns is into horses. My wife was in the Swedish national team as a teen. It is important that the kids understand what goes into looking after and having horses and that they get to experience every facet of it. It is hard labour but in the main it is a labour of love for the kids. If they go on to ride competetively then they will certainly spend most of their youth mucking out.

Horses need a lot of care.

Simon

 

[yorkshirejames]

I thought there was a minimum wage now, for 16 & 17 year olds?


If they are volunteers, then that should be sufficient to ensure legislation is complied with. There does need to be risk assessments etc, not to mention those disclosure checks on adults working with them.

 

[flatpackuniverse]

I didn't realise this still went on - I thought that H&S regulations and insurance bills had put a stop to this long ago.

Many (many) years ago I worked at a riding school part time. I was paid an hourly wage and everything went through the books although it was minimum wage. I found many parents used the riding school as effectively childcare for the day. For the cost of an hour's ride the child would be dumped at the stables in the early morning and not collected until end of day. Myself and rest of the paid staff then had to effectively run a playgroup on top of all the work with the horses.

Some time after I left I think that all stopped because the owner became concerned about liability and insurance cover.

 

[TotallySport]

There is a massive difference between looking after a horse you contected with (your own horse or part owned horse, friends horse you ride) and doing jobs which are not involved with that animal.

There is simply no way these young people are insured for doing what they do, if the owner pays them, that makes them employees and thats a legal mind field for any one under 18 let alone under 16, and I suspect there on very dodgy ground.

 

[Cornish Steve]

Young girls love horses, and this is a wonderful opportunity for them to be around them. No one is forcing them to work there, so what's the problem? Do we have to regulate every fun opportunity out of existence?

 

[Zeno]

While I can just about reconcile my feelings towards the stable work (Ignoring the legal aspects including insurance, NMW or lack of, health & safety etc) where part of me thinks if this is what the brats wan't to do with their free time then good luck to them as it gets them out from the TV or off street corners.

The part that would bothers me is the cafe. This would be a horse of a different colour (I'll get my coat...) and would seem to me to be exploitation. I am amazed that the parents allow it as no doubt they have to stump up for the uniforms.

 

[Zeno]

Young girls love horses, and this is a wonderful opportunity for them to be around them. No one is forcing them to work there, so what's the problem? Do we have to regulate every fun opportunity out of existence?

You could say the say about wee boys and cars, volunteering at a garage.

 

[TotallySport]

I don't have a problem with them looking after the stables mucking out, cleaning and grooming the horses and Kit etc, but as above I think it is wrong that they are working in the cafe, but also I don't agree they should be responsible for other people, who seem to be older and on large horses.

If the person the young girl was looking after got hurt or injured, the first thing the riding school would blame is the young girl!!!!

 

[deniser]

Is it a charity perhaps rather than a business? Making the children volunteers rather than workers?

 

[blackandwhite1986]

Young girls love horses, and this is a wonderful opportunity for them to be around them. No one is forcing them to work there, so what's the problem? Do we have to regulate every fun opportunity out of existence?

I fully agree with you Steve, but, from a self preservation point of view you do have to be covered now days. I wonder if the adults in charge have had their criminal record checks? What insurance and Health and Safety and Insurances have they got in place? I know what I have to do to train people for in the factory so there must be a fair whack that has to be covered in this environment.

This company may be operating with the best of intentions but wait for an injury to happen (in the stables or the cafe) and they will get crucified.

If young children are working in a cafe environment then common sense says it's not really the best place for them.

The OP needs to dig further and start spying!

 

[Officebird]

This got me thinking, so I googled the answer! (sad I know!) ANyway I came up with this extract:

Can my child work?

Yes, but only from age thirteen, only part-time and many restrictions apply. Any work your child does must not interfere with, or affect, their school work or attendance at school.
What is work?

The answer to this might seem obvious, but basically a child is employed if they assist in any trade of occupation carried on for profit. It does not matter whether the child is paid or not for the work done, and it makes no difference if the child is assisting their own parents in their business, working for a relative, or working for a major company.


From THIS site.

So according to this source the children are working and as they are under 13 it isn't really allowed.

Although I have to agree with what has already been said, these children do the work becasue they want to and because they love horses. Is there any real harm in it, as long as the children and parents are happy?

 

[Cornish Steve]

I fully agree with you Steve, but, from a self preservation point of view you do have to be covered now days. I wonder if the adults in charge have had their criminal record checks? What insurance and Health and Safety and Insurances have they got in place? I know what I have to do to train people for in the factory so there must be a fair whack that has to be covered in this environment.

The discussion centred around children not being paid, which is why I posted my previous comment. I agree with you completely about safety. Everything must be done to ensure that those working and visiting the facility are safe.

 

[Silky]

This has been going on for years and it's definitely a business run for profit, the owners are doing very-well-thank-you.

While I agree that while the children enjoy helping out, there's no issue but it goes beyond that. In winter they're freezing as they trail up and down the road but they know fine well it's all or nothing - if they don't turn up Saturdays and Sundays and do the full run without fail, they're off the team. I often saw my neighbour's daughter flat out on the sofa at 5pm on a Sunday, exhausted after 2 days in the cold. It's the boundary between enjoyment and duty that I'm uncomfortable with - if the kids can help out voluntarily as and when they want, that's great - as soon as they're pressured to do so (and they do fear the owner in this), then that's a different ball game altogether. As has been mentioned though, some parents probably do see it as a way of keeping the kids off the street - does that make it any more ethical?

I'm not sure how the farm is getting around the Health & Safety aspects, the accident last week could have been very nasty (a dog ran around the legs of a horse one of the children were leading, causing it to rear up and lose it's rider). There's little chance a child with only a couple of year's experience of horses could have prevented this.

Call me old fashioned, but I couldn't pride myself on growing a profitable business if it was built on the back of the efforts of unwaged children.

Silky

 

[An Oasis]

Young girls love horses, and this is a wonderful opportunity for them to be around them. No one is forcing them to work there, so what's the problem? Do we have to regulate every fun opportunity out of existence?

I'm so glad you said that Steve.

 

[Silky]

I think youv'e missed my last post Oasis. The issue isn't about fun - it's when this is seen as duty, a role expected of the child, and profit made on the back of their efforts. Reading the article Officebird has found, it's actually deemed illegal.

Silky

 

[An Oasis]

But are they enjoying themselves?

I can remember my sister being in the same position, it was her life, drama, tantrums, tears, friends...she loved it. Bugger the legislation this country is full of idiotic prats making up one stop fits all rules.

They ain't slave labour they can vote with their feet, or do you see chains and shackles somewhere?

 

[maria102]

I used to help out in stable when I was a kid and I loved it, some of the best years of my life, we got to groom the ponies, muck out and then ride them into the fields at the end of the day, it was great.

 

[Silky]

Funny, the same goes for the child labour in China. The children there may think they're the lucky ones, they've escaped rural poverty and are given a chance to provide for their families. But big bad UK customers decide they should be sent back to harsh northern climes - what complete and utter spoilsports. (And our customers won't allow our factories to use anyone under 14, definitely not 9).

As I mentioned earlier, it's not about a bit of helping out - the kids either have to do a full whack and work a very full weekend or not at all. They don't vote with their feet because they don't want to be ditched off the team. I personally find it immoral for a business to exploit their interest in this way and certainly wouldn't see anyone wanting to protect children as being an "idiotic prat", whether it's in the UK or 6,000 miles away.

Silky

 

[frimleypit4]

What a sad reflection on todays society that even a child's passion for a given hobby needs to have a monetary value. If they want to be with the horses and are prepared to give a bit in terms of commitment, hard work and discipline then frankly I think the owners should be commended for giving the kids some opportunity and direction. Yet, here we are talking about how much the kids should be paid and whether the appropriate insurances are in place - what a miserable view of the world!

 

[maria102]

Although I understand your point, I think of what kids my age then, do now instead - sit in front of their x-box or whatever eating sh*te from Macdonalds.

 

[Silky]

Oh there's a very lucrative monetary value to this Frimely but the girls walking the horses for hours and hours a day see none of it. To me that's immoral but I obviously work to a different moral code.

Silky

 

[frimleypit4]

There is a very big difference between being forced to work in a sweat shop to earn food for your family and spending time outside with animals you love, getting exercise, meeting friends and learning new skills. I think we do work to a different moral code because I know I'd rather my 9 year old child was focussing on the above, rather than worrying about how much they are getting paid! Plenty of time for that when they aren't children any longer.

 

[Cornish Steve]

Funny, the same goes for the child labour in China. The children there may think they're the lucky ones, they've escaped rural poverty and are given a chance to provide for their families. But big bad UK customers decide they should be sent back to harsh northern climes - what complete and utter spoilsports. (And our customers won't allow our factories to use anyone under 14, definitely not 9).

Who are we to pass judgment on other cultures? In Bangladesh, for example, women will walk many miles and work for 12 hours a day for the opportunity to escape poverty. Likewise, children in many parts of the world will jump at the opportunity to help their families by working. What matters is whether they do so willingly and whether it can be done without affecting their education.

 

[Cornish Steve]

Oh there's a very lucrative monetary value to this Frimely but the girls walking the horses for hours and hours a day see none of it. To me that's immoral but I obviously work to a different moral code.

You keep stating that it's immoral, but why? The girls want to do it, and they can walk away if they don't want to honour the time commitment.

On the other hand, the stables can't take on girls who may or may not show up each week. Either the girls commit to the work or the don't.

Provided safety matters are handled properly, I see nothing wrong with this at all. As Maria mentioned, what's the alternative? Young girls bored at home and not able to realise their dreams.

 

[Silky]

Likewise, children in many parts of the world will jump at the opportunity to help their families by working. What matters is whether they do so willingly and whether it can be done without affecting their education.

Indeed. Our retailers are just paranoid about this and children's rights. Let the kids decide for themselves, if they want to work and earn money at 6...8 then fine. They probably wouldn't get much of an education anyway and at least they'll be doing something useful. Kids happy, employer happy (very cheap labour), importer happy (very cheap prices), UK consumer happy too. Who's going to complain ? Ok the odd UK tabloid might kick up a fuss (a la Primark) but that's just plain sensationalism isn't it?

Hmmmm.

Silky

 

[Silky]

I'd rather my 9 year old child was focussing on the above, rather than worrying about how much they are getting paid! Plenty of time for that when they aren't children any longer.

The kids aren't worrying about being paid, that's why there are laws to protect them from abuse from employers like this. I simply don't think it's acceptable to exploit children for greed , sorry if you don't agree.

Silky

 

My daughters are both desperate to get involved in stable work of this kind and I know that a couple of the riding stables that are local to us, do offer this type of unpaid work in exchange for riding lessons.

For many young girls, there is something magical about being in close proximity to horses.

I do remember feeling the same way at that age (possibly because I grew up in that Ginty/Misty/Bunty magazine era of the 70's where all of the girls had ponies!! )

I do understand your concerns though and as a parent, I would be very unhappy if my children were being supervised on a horse by a 9 year old although that hasn't been our experience so far.

 

[Silky]

You keep stating that it's immoral, but why? The girls want to do it, and they can walk away if they don't want to honour the time commitment..

On a quick reading, the child employment law states a child of 13 should not work for more than 2 hours on a Sunday. The girls must work 7 hours or they lose their "position". Whether you agree or disagree on the morality of making money out of young children, the fact remains it's illegal.


Silky

 

[An Oasis]

Scenario for you Silky

If someone came up with a scheme to get the youths off the streets, stopping countless thousands of problems and get them to do something proactive, that person would be given a gong within months and it would become a case study that most of the Western World would follow. What is the difference?

 

[Silky]

My daughters are both desperate to get involved in stable work of this kind and I know that a couple of the riding stables that are local to us, do offer this type of unpaid work in exchange for riding lessons.
.

Fair exchange is great. I just find it outrageous when a 9 year old doesn't even get this because she's deemed too young. When my own girls are old enough to pester me about horses, I'll search out your stables Claire!

Silky

 

[Silky]

Scenario for you Silky

If someone came up with a scheme to get the youths off the streets, stopping countless thousands of problems and get them to do something proactive, that person would be given a gong within months and it would become a case study that most of the Western World would follow. What is the difference?

It it's legal and above board then fine. If it contravenes the laws in place to protect the vulnerable and is kept below board then I'd smell a rat.

Silky

 

But I doubt very much that those girls are forced to work there, so comparing it to child labour is misleading.

Infact they probably begged their parents until they were blue in the face for the opportunity to do so. It's a girl thing unfortunately, most of us go through this terrible horse-mad phase at that age (god knows why in retropect) and no amount of mud/rain/horse fly bites will deter them.

I am trying to think of an equivalent boy obsession!

 

[frimleypit4]

I absolutely agree that it's unacceptable to exploit children for greed - but nothing you have said has convinced me that is the case. If it concerns you so much, have you thought about going round and speaking to the owners and expressing your views? If it doesn't concern you enough to have that conversation then maybe its better just to accept it is someone elses business, someone else child, someone elses cafe and that public indignation on an unrelated forum does nothing to change the situation.

 

[An Oasis]

It it's legal and above board then fine. If it contravenes the laws in place to protect the vulnerable and is kept below board then I'd smell a rat.

Silky

Ok so this will never be a meeting of the minds. I can accept that and admire anyone who stands his or her grounds, whether I agree with what they say or not.

Legal, for me that is a difficult ground to have a discussion on, there is so much legal fluff that I find very hard to tolerate but…in the scenario that I suggested and I think 90%+ of society would not care if it was legal or not as long as it made a difference.

Getting back to the topic of the thread. If the kids are happy and enjoying what they do and can freely walk away from the stables without coercion I don’t have a problem with it. They are learning to work and at the same time socialising and learning about things that they would never have been taught in school and for me that is a good environment for them.

 

[Cornish Steve]

Getting back to the topic of the thread. If the kids are happy and enjoying what they do and can freely walk away from the stables without coercion I don’t have a problem with it. They are learning to work and at the same time socialising and learning about things that they would never have been taught in school and for me that is a good environment for them.

Agreed, as long as it's also a safe environment.