Eco Business - A Separate Forum Section?

[AdamJ]

I agree - with hindsight, as the debate has progressed, it seems far more appropriate to have a "green area" for all forum members - not just those involved in selling green products.

Now that's a good idea.

 

[RayB]

What devastation? Have you ever seen any first-hand? Is Britain being devastated? Can we believe anything we see on TV? Sorry, but scare-mongering language doesn't justify a new forum category - or a business case for that matter.

Steve - you've been in America too long and gone and got yourself all brainwashed

Nice flood anyone?

 

[Cornish Steve]

But Ray, floods happen all the time. Famine happens all the time. Fires happen all the time. Poverty happens all the time. War happens all the time. What's different in our era is that the media fills our entire day with these stories, and we have some with an agenda that use these incidences and the media to scare us into their viewpoint. None of that, though, should be used to support or to decry businesses that focus on helping the environment.

At the moment I am plugged into other ethical business networks

There it is again: The implication that green businesses or eco-friendly businesses are more ethical. This is subtle conditioning and, I repeat, it's a load of old phooey. How dare someone imply I am less ethical than others simply because my business is not green!

a lot of eco "busineses" are not even that, community co-operatives, Non profits, and the majority support a broad range of things that "traditional business" has ignored, that is until it recently became fashionable...

And this is wonderful. Passion in business is very important, as is a mission statement. Such ventures, often fighting against all odds, can succeed because of them.

All of a sudden all of the power companies are telling us how green they are, the banks, involved with Arms companies, and funding de-forestation projects pretending they care.

Right, and I have to say that I've seen many posts at these forums in which an occasional visitor will come in with some type of 'green' statement that is either meaningless or farcical, hoping that their new marketing message will suddenly sell an otherwise ordinary product. It ain't gonna happen.

Profit, and if that means people losing their homes, children working 17 hour days, they don't care.

We shouldn't judge every society by our current work standards. Although a child working 17 hours a day is probably wrong anywhere, a child working 8 hours a day or an adult working 12 hours a day is quite acceptable in many parts of the world.

In general, though, I agree. This is why I have fought tooth and nail to get my own business venture established without seeking investment funds. The moment I do that, I am beholden more intensely to the profit motive. It's not that the profit motive is wrong, per se, but I view our venture as much a mission as it is a business. I'd rather struggle financially and meet our objectives than secure a few million and suddenly lose control of that mission.

But these principles apply no matter what the form of business. I could argue that we need a separate forum for ethical business practices - but, of course, we'd all post there.

 

[RayB]

Steve,

I'll give you an example of what I am talking about - in Europe we now recycle 63.4% of all the paper used in the EU (2006 figures).

That is nearly 2000 tonnes per second

Impressive stuff - I was so impressed I blogged about it

Now - if that lot was not recycled we would be digging a very big hole to bury it all - probably sited where the forests used to be.

I am of the opinion people need to know this sort of stuff, engage in and debate it, many already are.

And I would simply rather that debate had a home here on UKBF

And this example has nothing to do with global warming (wether you believe it exists or not)

 

[Cornish Steve]

I'll give you an example of what I am talking about - in Europe we now recycle 63.4% of all the paper used in the EU (2006 figures).

I agree with you, Ray! It's just that I don't think a separate forum is needed to get your message out - and in fact it could hurt you. Most likely, a green area would soon be visited by a sub-group all with the same agenda, with everyone agreeing with one another, which fractionalises the forums. We live in a hyphenated society as it is; let's promote diversity within the general forums, not splinter groups in side forums. Post in an area where some agree and some disagree, so you can learn from other opinions. The goal here IMHO is to help everyone do better in business, not to win an idealogical argument.

 

[RayB]

The goal here IMHO is to help everyone do better in business, not to win an idealogical argument.

Who said anything about a Forum for the idealogical argument? Read the thread again - there are several replies from members who run "normal" non-eco businesses who have expressed an interest both in the debate - and in terms of practical daily business issues.

For example - somebody might need a new van and want to discuss the business benefits (if any) of switching from diesel to LPG fuel. What is the harm in having a place to "file" stuff like that?

Also, is the debate going to go away anytime soon? No! Are eco-business issues here to stay? Yes!

Is there any harm in UKBF being at the forefront of this? No!

After all, we recently debated whether to have a new section for SEO etc. No problem with that and it was done. It made sense, and makes threads easier to find on the topic.

Nobody is FORCED to use it though

 

[Eco2You]

The goal here IMHO is to help everyone do better in business, not to win an idealogical argument.

Which, with the growing number of businesses seeking information or looking for support in this area, "eco"/ "non eco", pink, blue, or yellow, ethical or trying to be ethical, or helping others is exactly why a forum, sticky, anything for everyone to acccess would be perfect to help everyone do better in business.

 

[Travelling Sam]

I voted yes.

Perhaps the "Eco Forum" could be a sub-forum of general business. An Eco-section would make UKBF that little bit special compared to other business forums around.

Carl has taken the words out of my mouth.

 

[Eco2You]

Still not many saying why they vote no?

 

[RayB]

Still not many saying why they vote no?

My guess would be that the no votes simply have no interest in the issue as opposed to objecting to the idea.

If that is the case there is not much to add to the debate by leaving a comment to that effect I suppose?

 

[ADW]

My first real most and I vote yes!

This category is only going to get bigger as the issue isn't going away anytime soon.

I myself don't fall for all that rubbish some of these scientists spout out but still see the business potential and have recently registered a domain name ready for when I get a chance to get involved in saving the planet (and expanding my wallet).

 

[RayB]

I myself don't fall for all that rubbish some of these scientists spout out but still see the business potential and have recently registered a domain name ready for when I get a chance to get involved in saving the planet (and expanding my wallet).

Thats the spirit

As the saying goes - where there's muck there's brass

PS - Welcome to the Forum!

 

[Travelling Sam]

My guess would be that the no votes simply have no interest in the issue as opposed to objecting to the idea.

Be good for them to have all this eco tittle-tattle in a separate forum them so they don't have to wade through all this hippie stuff to get to the threads they are interested in then

 

[andysv1k]

Just voted yes.

Obviously its a big issue for me as i run a renewable energy company, but i too wouldnt want to see a seperate section go bad by just a few die hards in there, it should be an area open to everyone and about all things "green" (anyone else starting to dislike that word? you just cant get away from it!)

One of my main reasons for voting yes, is like another member mentioned, i dont get the time to be on here all that much, so it would be nice to know that i could log on and check on threads that i know i will be interested in, and not just as potential business, but also i would like to think that i can learn things from others and get ideas for how i could improve the way my business works.

Lets get it going!

Andy.

 

Excellent, so we get our own way afterall, good oh.

I'll have a word with Dan to help get it started.

*****

Steve, whilst normally I enjoy your posts, on this issue, I just don't understand why you are so against it. You seem absolutely adamant that it wouldn't work, that it would cause fragmentation etc across the forum, sorry to say, but it just reads like paranoid thinking to me, exactly what are you so scared of?

 

[Gillie]

Can I just ask what kind of things would be posted in this new possible sub-section? I take it that all things related to eco business such as lists of good suppliers and that kind of thing, but that the relevant members would still post in the other sections for marketing/finance/seo/general when it does not include eco things??

 

[Eco2You]

Can I just ask what kind of things would be posted in this new possible sub-section? I take it that all things related to eco business such as lists of good suppliers and that kind of thing, but that the relevant members would still post in the other sections for marketing/finance/seo/general when it does not include eco things??

I think thats the point, that it would be open, and that all of general business is relevant to most people, just look at the post count of some of those voting yes.

Hardly, shy retiring violets

 

[RayB]

Can I just ask what kind of things would be posted in this new possible sub-section? I take it that all things related to eco business such as lists of good suppliers and that kind of thing, but that the relevant members would still post in the other sections for marketing/finance/seo/general when it does not include eco things??

Absolutely Gillie - nothing else would change.

The new section would not be for eco businesses - but for all.

Say you (being in Finance) wanted to know - can I save money by using recycled laser toner on my printer - it would live in the new section - an at a glance for us all - as opposed to a section for "Tree Huggers" and other assorted weirdos

The worst that could happen is that some of us who never consider these things might give it a bit of thought where the business case merits it

 

It's not like we want a sub cult here, some underground movement or anything, anything and everything could be discussed with all things pertaining to more green focused businesses.

Personally I'd like to see it not setting itself apart, rather inviting others into the discussions, embracing debate and many other factors.

Sure if people want to discuss marketing etc directly applicable to their green business, then why not do it in there, the choice is upon the individual making the thread whether to put their questions in another part of the forum or in there specifically. What does it matter?

For myself, I have a very great interest in this subject and at present not being able to look through the entire forum for discussions or questions about environmentally friendly earth conscious business topics is a pain in the butt. I know already I may have lost out on many a good topic.

To have it all under the same heading, would make searching for useful information a whole lot easier and much more enjoyable and would save time too.

 

[RayB]

I know already I may have lost out on many a good topic.

Exactly, I cited examples, earlier in the thread, of several threads just from this week that are lost/buried in the general sections.

The topic is already here - and should be easier to find - that is all

 

At the very least as I pointed out in my previous comments on this topic, could we at least have a trial run of this new section of the forum, for let's say, four weeks, or eight weeks whatever, then if it doesn't work, ok no problems, and if it does work, excellent.

Whats the big deal?

I get more worried about some here that seem to be so adamantly against this idea that Ray has floated. It's not a convincing case to blatantly state your view that such a thing is not needed or required. By stating such a view, you make it obvious that you would have no interest in posting in there, again, no big deal, you and I have the choice at present which areas of the forum we do, or do not post in.

For example, the IT and Internet section I've posted in about once I think, but they have their own section so why not green businesses also?

Hell, even my laptop here, it says on the top of it: Quality With Environment In Mind - ASUS Notebooks offer superior computing capability with eco-friendly materials.

If it's good enough for major computer companies to take notice of the issue, it's got to be good enough for a personal, down to earth business forum such as this.

 

[frockery]

Just entering this thread with some trepidation as I see there has been some robust discussion already.

I would be interested in a section which focuses on sustainable business and have therefore voted yes in the poll. This is a brilliant forum, from which I have gained an enormous amount of useful and relevant info and advice in the short time I have been here. However, it is also *huge* and it is often difficult to keep up with threads which are of direct interest and I know I often miss useful posts.

My own business is firmly rooted in the green/sustainable sector (recycled clothes!) and so I have a vested interest in a new section, but I do think 'greening the economy' is an important theme which can only become moreso as 'peak oil' kicks in and has an effect on the majority of businesses and their profitability.

Like climate change, peak oil is one of those subjects which tends to polarise views, but we must all have noticed how expensive fuel has become, and how much more expensive it is set to become, as our finite oil resources literally dry up (or else become uneconomic to extract).

Off to blend into the background again.

Regards, Alison

 

[RayB]

Off to blend into the background again.

Regards, Alison

Hi Alison, Great post!

And therein lies the tragedy - plently of passionate people like Alison are visiting the Forum, yet finding nothing to contribute to (until now)

Again - I'd rather see the debate, and the natural home for these issues HERE

 

[AdamJ]

To expand on my original post - be VERY careful in separating out 'green' issues. I work in health and safety, and the major battle over the 15 years I've worked in it has been to get businesses to understand that H&S needs to be the way they do business, not 'do the business then do the safety stuff'. Getting H&S integrated into the way all areas of a business thinks, to the extent that it is no longer an issue because that's simply the way it is done, is the only way to get it to work.

Separating out eco-issues into a separate forum, away from the main business one, puts it into the same position safety was decades ago - there's the work you do to run your business, and then there's that eco-stuff.

I am fairly eco-conscious - my degree is in ecology and conservation, and want eco-issues to be taken seriously, but they can only achieve success by being integrated into work, not segregated out.

 

[RayB]

Separating out eco-issues into a separate forum, away from the main business one, puts it into the same position safety was decades ago - there's the work you do to run your business, and then there's that eco-stuff.

I disagree - with H&S there is the right way and the wrong way (compliant or not with the law) - with respect I cannot connect that with green issues?

 

[AdamJ]

H&S's not that clear cut, sadly - there is very little 'this is the explicit standard' left any more. Sure, there is right and there is wrong but there is a huge range of 'not bad' . Eg what is an unacceptable risk for a large company may be an acceptable one for a smaller one legally depending on the issue - after all, in law its enshrined in the 'reasonably practicable' principle which most H&S legislation is now based on, where you make a judgement on the risk versus the cost of improvement and the resources available to the company. There are clear lines at the extremes, but most of it is very judgement-based and is balanced by other factors in the business therefore building H&S into the way business is done rather than a strict 'do I comply with this specific requirement or not' is necessary to make it work.

Its the same with environmental issues, there are extremes which are clearly right or wrong, but there is a huge middle ground where businesses have to balance it with their other pressures. Eg. A chemical company slowly reducing its waste streams, reducing its energy usage or moving to less harmful (but possibly more expensive) substances - that's eco-thinking in business and all of it is a judgement and is just one factor in the decision-making process, just the same as H&S is. Separating it out is bad and detrimental to the overall desired result - its hard enough getting people to buy into it in the first place without somehow making it look like an extra issue at work - make it part of the normal way things are done and more is achieved.

 

[RayB]

Eg. A chemical company slowly reducing its waste streams, reducing its energy usage or moving to less harmful (but possibly more expensive) substances - that's eco-thinking in business and all of it is a judgement and is just one factor in the decision-making process, just the same as H&S is.

But this is a "small business" forum. And all that is being proposed is a place for people to discuss such issues - which ARE coming more to the fore.

It has nothing to do with investing/spending money to become more "green"

However - one might be able to convert more business by promoting the "green aspects" of their business at no cost.

The same cannot be said of Health and Safety - as this is simply the Law

 

[gnaldrett]

[Entering with caution......]

I have voted not fussed and my reasons...

At the stage my business is at just now I am more concerned with survival than anything else! I have seen some very good cases put forward by both the no's and yes's, however if this is a subject that is going to become more main stream surely it should stay in the General Business Forum?? In my mind this would bring more awareness to businesses like mine that are not actively seeking the eco way of life, but could learn without making a concious effort to visit a specific section of UKBF.

Yes, granted for those looking for this type of discussion/advice then it would be easier to find in it's own forum, but a lot of good may be missed by the masses.

Now can you see why I am fence sitting!!

[Don't hit me anyone!]

Regards,

Gordon

 

[frockery]

'Mainstreaming' sustainability has indeed got to be the way forward, just as the mainstreaming of equalities has happened (albeit 30+ years after the primary legislation was enacted). H&S also has a statutory basis, but 'green' is still in its infancy and probably requires a bit of positive discrimination IMHO!

Regards, Alison

 

[AdamJ]

Without digressing too far down a rat-hole... My point is that environmental issues follow H&S to an extent in that buy-in is essential, and separating it out is not helpful.

Sure, H&S is law-driven (but nowhere near as much as you may think) where as environmental issues are sales or cost-driven, but that aside, to get your business to succeed either with it or from it you need to integrate it, not separate it.

Quickly on a couple of the other point:

No, not 'big' business - I have a mate who runs a chemical sales business who has 11 employees and he's doing exactly what I said above.

And H&S, very sadly, is not 'simply the law' any more. I wish it was, but its far too woolly for that now. The laws say very little, usually leaving it up to others to decide what's reasonable and therefore what must be done.

 

[ken_uk]

Certain eco 'friendly' things are black and white, possibly more so than even some h&s things are, like the fairly recent regulations about the majority of electrical components having to be lead free (ironically it has probably meant having to consign who knows how many billions of tons of perfectly good existing electrical equipment and components into landfill, so they can re-make all the stock lead free. Hardly eco friendly...).

Manufacturers have to abide by those eco laws, similar to how they have to abide by h&s laws or face the consequences

 

To expand on my original post - be VERY careful in separating out 'green' issues. I work in health and safety, and the major battle over the 15 years I've worked in it has been to get businesses to understand that H&S needs to be the way they do business ...

Mark groans loudly at the H&S systems in this country that have gone completely barking mad.

 

[RayB]

Adam, It is great you are robustly joining in the debate, but I have difficulty reconcilling this statement:

Now that's a good idea.

With this one:

Without digressing too far down a rat-hole... My point is that environmental issues follow H&S to an extent in that buy-in is essential, and separating it out is not helpful.

I'm just confused as to the point you are trying to make :|

 

H&S's not that clear cut, sadly - there is very little 'this is the explicit standard' left any more. Sure, there is right and there is wrong but there is a huge range of 'not bad' . Eg what is an unacceptable risk for a large company may be an acceptable one for a smaller one legally depending on the issue - after all, in law its enshrined in the 'reasonably practicable' principle which most H&S legislation is now based on, where you make a judgement on the risk versus the cost of improvement and the resources available to the company. There are clear lines at the extremes, but most of it is very judgement-based and is balanced by other factors in the business therefore building H&S into the way business is done rather than a strict 'do I comply with this specific requirement or not' is necessary to make it work.

Its the same with environmental issues, there are extremes which are clearly right or wrong, but there is a huge middle ground where businesses have to balance it with their other pressures. Eg. A chemical company slowly reducing its waste streams, reducing its energy usage or moving to less harmful (but possibly more expensive) substances - that's eco-thinking in business and all of it is a judgement and is just one factor in the decision-making process, just the same as H&S is. Separating it out is bad and detrimental to the overall desired result - its hard enough getting people to buy into it in the first place without somehow making it look like an extra issue at work - make it part of the normal way things are done and more is achieved.

This post has me confused, what on earth does all of this have to do with simply asking for a part of the forum to be dedicated to green businesses?

Typical H&S talk, over complicating matters, where common sense should prevail.

 

Yes, granted for those looking for this type of discussion/advice then it would be easier to find in it's own forum, but a lot of good may be missed by the masses.

Why would that be, when all they would have to do would be to click on the relevant section if they so desired?

How could that possibly be missed by the masses?

 

[RayB]

Can I also add - I am astonished at the page views and posts this thread has generated in a little over 24 hours - there must be something in this subject!

 

[iklemiracle]

Its your (Fridge) Magnate -ism

 

[mconridge]

I just thought I'd add my piece.

I don't think there is any need for an 'eco' or 'Green' forum for the simple fact that I don't see a large demand for it. I've hardly seen any posts relating to Green Issues that need their own space, although I accept that we have seen an increase in the number of Green businesses joining the forum.

Don't get me wrong. I think 'Green Issues' will have a huge bearing on businesses in the future and I always look for Green companies when I need services such as printing and delivery etc.

The other reason I disagree is that I find when I view a forum I've never visited before I tend to get put off if there are too many of too few sub forums.

 

You don't think there is 'any' need, yet almost 25 people have requested it.

Are you saying we don't matter?

 

[RayB]

Don't get me wrong. I think 'Green Issues' will have a huge bearing on businesses in the future and I always look for Green companies when I need services such as printing and delivery etc.

So why bury it ( esp: huge bearing in the future), heck we have a franchising section with tumbleweed rolling about the place - does not make sense to me :|