Insolvency practitioners seeking debts from directors

Tringa

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Jul 23, 2023
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Hello, our shop went insolvent and we are being asked to repay debts of 40k which was taken as wages above the amounts on our wage slips over two years. We dont seem to be able to refute this and we have to meet with them soon. Can a monthly payment plan be reached without them imposing an IVA?
 
The Liquidators have no power to impose an IVA. You can often negotiate. The two keys issues often tend to be: a) is the quantum accepted and b) do you have the means to repay.
 
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Tringa

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Jul 23, 2023
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Our accountants ( who have since stopped communicating with us ) recommended this firm to us and assured us that the insolvency practice would be working in our interests. We paid thousands of pounds for this service. They have investigated us with a vengeance and referred to us in communications as ' Mr and Mrs Jones.' Now that they have drawn their conclusions against us, their last letter was ' Dear John and Susan can we meet to work something out so that we dont need to go to court.' Are we to trust these snakes?
 
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Chris Ashdown

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    Our accountants ( who have since stopped communicating with us ) recommended this firm to us and assured us that the insolvency practice would be working in our interests. We paid thousands of pounds for this service. They have investigated us with a vengeance and referred to us in communications as ' Mr and Mrs Jones.' Now that they have drawn their conclusions against us, their last letter was ' Dear John and Susan can we meet to work something out so that we dont need to go to court.' Are we to trust these snakes?
    debts of 40k which was taken as wages above the amounts on our wage slips over two years

    They are doing there duty in checking where the money has gone, the question could be "can they trust you and your accounts"
     
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    Newchodge

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    debts of 40k which was taken as wages above the amounts on our wage slips over two years

    They are doing there duty in checking where the money has gone, the question could be "can they trust you and your accounts"
    Did you declare the 40K received to HMRC as income? Presumably it was not taxed at source?
     
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    Tringa

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    Did you declare the 40K received to HMRC as income? Presumably it was not taxed at source?
    The first year was a directors loan, and the second year was meant to be dividends but the company went downhill quickly without accounts being done. We only took the equivalent to minimum wages overall. The lockdowns, the result of them on the high streets, then the economic crisis caused the fall of the business.
     
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    DWS

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    Oct 26, 2018
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    The first year was a directors loan, and the second year was meant to be dividends but the company went downhill quickly without accounts being done. We only took the equivalent to minimum wages overall. The lockdowns, the result of them on the high streets, then the economic crisis caused the fall of the business.
    This post is confusing!
    First post says that £40k was taken as wages but above the amount reported in payslips, now the first year was a DL and the next was meant to be dividends so not wages at all.
    Do any of these transactions show in the accounts? Or have no accounts been done at all?
     
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    WaveJumper

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    Sorry to hear the predicament you find yourselves in however pretty sure they will have looked at how you could have taken dividends (of whatever amount) if the business was not in profit. As above its about sitting down and negotiation.

    Any personal guarantees that might come back to bite you
     
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    Tringa

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    This post is confusing!
    First post says that £40k was taken as wages but above the amount reported in payslips, now the first year was a DL and the next was meant to be dividends so not wages at all.
    Do any of these transactions show in the accounts? Or have no accounts been done at all?
    Sorry if my vocabulary is not as technically correct as it should be. The first year they investigated which was the year after lockdowns showed an overdrawn directors loan on the accounts. The following year, the business folded just on the year end, so no accounts had been done. We only ever took just enough money out of the business to live on, however this was more than the amounts assigned to payroll. It has now only too late come to our attention that we did not really understand the process of dividends, directors overdrawn account, etc. and should have folded the business earlier. But we worked hard after Covid and believed the government when it said that things would return to normal. It never did and only got worse and worse. We had the business for a decade and the accounts were always healthy before the retail sector was forced to close down.
     
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    It appears that the £40k taken over and above the level of wages, if not offset by other amounts due to the directors, it seems as if it amounted to overdrawn directors' loan accounts ("ODLA"). An Insolvency Practitioner ("IP") has a duty to realise the assets of the company. An ODLA is an asset.

    This statement appears to highlight a potential issue:
    "Our accountants ( who have since stopped communicating with us ) recommended this firm to us and assured us that the insolvency practice would be working in our interests."

    The duty of directors of a limited company that is insolvent is to act in the best interests of the creditors. That is the Creditor Duty, which arises in case law and Section 172(3) of the Companies Act 2006. Once insolvent, the duty to creditors outflanks the duty to shareholders and members of the company.

    The position of the IP is to act in the best interests of the creditors, not in the best interests of the directors.
     
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    Tringa

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    In summary; the paying of several thousands of pounds for an insolvency practitioner to do what could have been done for free by the government, has been a little like for those of you who can remember the television program Star Trek: "We come in Peace. Shoot to kill. Shoot to kill."

    To get back to my original question; are we likely to be able to negotiate a reasonable alternative repayment scheme other than selling our home or an IVA. And more importantly can we trust these people?
     
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    In summary; the paying of several thousands of pounds for an insolvency practitioner to do what could have been done for free by the government, has been a little like for those of you who can remember the television program Star Trek: "We come in Peace. Shoot to kill. Shoot to kill."

    To get back to my original question; are we likely to be able to negotiate a reasonable alternative repayment scheme other than selling our home or an IVA. And more importantly can we trust these people?
    Negotiation is often possible. It depends on the facts of the case and the terms desired.
     
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    Tringa

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    let's say your company owes creditors £50k

    You owe your company £40k

    If they are trustworthy, they will be trying to get you to pay the £40K

    What do you mean by - can you trust them
    Are they people with impeccable moral standards within the profession or do they resort to devious and underlying trickery to obtain their objectives? It isn't a difficult question.
     
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    Tringa

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    How much does the company owe? You appreciate that an IP isn't there to play footsie under the table. There just isn't such a thing as a "friendly" IP. Their duty is to recover for creditors whatever asset they can get their teeth into.
    40k. I dont want a dodgy IP. I just want to know if I can believe what they tell me and can trust what they agree.
     
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    And on another occasion they sent me a letter with a forged signature. I have proof of this.
    What is the context of that?
     
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    Chris Ashdown

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    There are stories on this forum about IP's stating one thing at initial meeting; and being seen as sharks in practice, but and a big but, most we assume are fair players, When my company went tits up my IP was very fair and helpful
    All you can go on is recommendation, but in this case you have made your choice and its now out of your hands
    No reason for your accountant to speak to you as I guess de is also a owed money he is unlikely to get paid
    Talking to the IP about options should be your first action and not a forum
     
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    the IP appears to be doing their job.
    yes the IP is doing the job but looks like the Accountants didn't - advice would have been to walk away and do nothing and let the Creditors petition to wind up the company.

    Don't believe HMRC/Other creditors would petition to wind up for £20K.

    All that needed to done was to close the shop doors & declare the £40K as income on the Directors Tax Returns.
     
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    Gyumri

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    It was roughly, HMRC 20K, bounce back loan 30k, other creditors 20k
    As I understand the bank is able to recover the BBL from the government and so the IP is under no duty to try and recover that debt, which would be akin to a double recovery. The other trade creditors are obviously suffering because they have sold their goods to the company although nobody could foresee Covid.

    It seems to me that if the money you took was to be treated as a salary then HMRC are entitled to be paid the tax due on that remuneration. The IP in that case would not then be able to regard your drawings as simply an overdrawn DLA.

    There would be an argument over that point but if it was intended to go down in the books as a salary then it seems a bit rich for the IP to try to re-label it as a loan. It's either one or the other.
     
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    Newchodge

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    As I understand the bank is able to recover the BBL from the government and so the IP is under no duty to try and recover that debt, which would be akin to a double recovery. The other trade creditors are obviously suffering because they have sold their goods to the company although nobody could foresee Covid.

    It seems to me that if the money you took was to be treated as a salary then HMRC are entitled to be paid the tax due on that remuneration. The IP in that case would not then be able to regard your drawings as simply an overdrawn DLA.

    There would be an argument over that point but if it was intended to go down in the books as a salary then it seems a bit rich for the IP to try to re-label it as a loan. It's either one or the other.
    But it appears that payroll was run and this sum was not included. So it clearly was not intended to be salary. As no dividend was declared it must be a loan.
     
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    Lisa Thomas

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    In summary; the paying of several thousands of pounds for an insolvency practitioner to do what could have been done for free by the government, has been a little like for those of you who can remember the television program Star Trek: "We come in Peace. Shoot to kill. Shoot to kill."

    To get back to my original question; are we likely to be able to negotiate a reasonable alternative repayment scheme other than selling our home or an IVA. And more importantly can we trust these people?

    The government's liquidator does not work for free...The Official Receiver's costs, once appointed as Liquidator, start off at c£13k...
     
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    Lisa Thomas

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    As I understand the bank is able to recover the BBL from the government and so the IP is under no duty to try and recover that debt, which would be akin to a double recovery. The other trade creditors are obviously suffering because they have sold their goods to the company although nobody could foresee Covid.

    It seems to me that if the money you took was to be treated as a salary then HMRC are entitled to be paid the tax due on that remuneration. The IP in that case would not then be able to regard your drawings as simply an overdrawn DLA.

    There would be an argument over that point but if it was intended to go down in the books as a salary then it seems a bit rich for the IP to try to re-label it as a loan. It's either one or the other.

    Not sure what you mean about a double recovery. The Liquidator is under a duty to maximise realisations. If the government has paid out under the guarantee to the bank for the BBL then it would have a subrogated claim as a creditor in the liquidation.

    Here, OP has said their drawings were not run through the payroll hence couldn't be classed as a wage. This is the problem when too many directors rely on taking drawings as dividends and do not process them properly as they should, and don't stop drawing them when their company becomes insolvent. That results in an unlawful dividend and/or an overdrawn loan account.
     
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    Lisa Thomas

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    To get back to my original question; are we likely to be able to negotiate a reasonable alternative repayment scheme other than selling our home or an IVA. And more importantly can we trust these people?

    Elliot Green has taken the time to reply to you on this point twice...

    Negotiation depends on what you have to offer, and what you are actually offering...

    If in doubt, instruct a specialist insolvency solicitor to negotiate for you (but bear in mind there will be a cost for this.)
     
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    It seems to me that your accountants misled you over the nature of an IP's role - which is to get a return for your creditors.

    With the exception of a forged signature (which may or may not be significant), the IP appears to be doing their job.

    Get everything in writing, and have a constructive dialogue
    Directors need to understand that the veil of incorporation comes with a duty of loyalty that outflanks the duty to put food on their own table. Whilst such a duty might be considered challenging in the face of a conflict of interest, the duty in effect flips from the members to those who will suffer a loss when a company is insolvent ie. the creditors.
     
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    As I understand the bank is able to recover the BBL from the government and so the IP is under no duty to try and recover that debt, which would be akin to a double recovery. The other trade creditors are obviously suffering because they have sold their goods to the company although nobody could foresee Covid.

    It seems to me that if the money you took was to be treated as a salary then HMRC are entitled to be paid the tax due on that remuneration. The IP in that case would not then be able to regard your drawings as simply an overdrawn DLA.

    There would be an argument over that point but if it was intended to go down in the books as a salary then it seems a bit rich for the IP to try to re-label it as a loan. It's either one or the other.
    The IP is under a duty to realise the assets inter alia by virtue of Section 107 of the Insolvency Act 1986. Any suggestion the IP does not have such a duty to realise the assets because the BBL creditor could otherwise be paid out by the government appears to be a threadbare proposition. It is as @Lisa Thomas says.

    The suggestion of double recovery appears confusing. The government guarantee is that if the Company's property/assets is/are insufficient and cannot discharge the BBL debt, the government will take the hit, not the bank. However, it is in effect a backup position; it is not deemed the primary means for the BBL bank creditor to be paid. It is rather like a PG.

    In relation to monies taken over and above the salary declared on RTI, without some other credit in the directors' favour, the excess would usually be ODLA. It is usually not about sprinkling intentions into the mix but a) the facts as they happened b) what the Articles and Board Resolutions say and c) what the directors' service contracts say.
     
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    The government's liquidator does not work for free...The Official Receiver's costs, once appointed as Liquidator, start off at c£13k...
    Let's not forget that in a CVL (although a procedure that might not be without its critics) the directors don't lose all control until the Liquidation formally starts because the company has contractual relations with the IP and typically access to advice from the IP - often provided with alacrity. Contrast that with Compulsory Liquidation.
     
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