HGV Driver shortage

[IanSuth]

Oh, wow, you need a permit to take waste to the tip?
We just take ours down general waste goes into the skip labelled general waste and recycling goes into the big banks provided for plastic, glass, tins / cans and paper / card. There is also a clothes recycling bank that you are also free to just put your unwanted stuff into.

Our recycling centre also has an upcycling outlet where they pull things out that people have dumped like old chairs etc and sell them on for restoration, they make a tidy sum of money off of that!

It was a big local scandal/cock up

Greater Reading is actually under 3 authorities, West Berks (centred in Newbury), Reading and Wokingham. West Berks never bought into RE3 (another scandal in how it was all set up) but used to make a contribution for the fact it's residents living on the western side of Reading used the SmallMead tip, a couple of years ago West Berks decided to stop the (i think £1/4m pa) contribution, so RE3 said everyone needed to prove they were residents of the Reading/Wok or Bracknell upon arrival at the tip, this was troublesome so a permit was produced and sent to all residents (with a separate commercial permit available as they won't let you take anything commercial and charge you for things like dropping off an old sink).

West Berks residents complained to their council that they now had to drive to Newbury to recycle, so West Berks had to spend a load to upgrade a small facility in Padworth, this then became more convenient than Basingstoke for Hampshire residents living in Tadley. So West Berks have not introduced a permit for their residents to stop those Tadley people

I am yet to see who has saved any money from this

https://www.reading.gov.uk/environm...ehold-waste-charges-at-re3-recycling-centres/

 

[DontAsk]

We've had appointments at the tip since they re-opened after the first lock down, and it's a brilliant system. No more queuing. I really hope they keep it.

Theoretically you can be asked to provide evidence of residency, especially at sites close to the border with another authority, but I have never been asked.

 

[MBE2017]

After the lockdown our tips were instructed only to allow a max of 8 vehicles to be unloading, instead of the usual 20 odd. End result, queues of over an hour, sometimes two, traffic backed up half a mile, police required to turn people away, and a huge increase in fly tipping as a result.

The same number of staff used, plus 3 to 4 extra from the council, to run the whole debacle. It’s improved slightly, but not much.

 

[Mr D]

It’s a well known fact that supermarkets have for decades put pressure on their produce suppliers to the extent than many have been squeezed until the pips squeak. They also use the same techniques on their hauliers hence the situation we find ourselves in at the moment with the added challenges of CV-19 and Brexit.

And we as customers certainly weren't complaining about the low prices!

So now as we see companies are having to pay more to keep existing staff and try recruiting new staff. Expect price rises across the board and expect inflation. And expect, in time bigger pay rises demanded from staff in other industries.
If lorry drivers can have 20%+ pay rise then train drivers, police, nurses, doctors, shop staff etc will want pay rises of a decent amount to pay for the increase in their goods costs.

 

[Mr D]

I used to work for the union UNISON, dealing mainly with local authorities. Outsourcing was always a big bone of contention. The refuse collectors seemed fairly happy with their position.

Since outsourcing of refuse collection I don't recall seeing any strikes by the bin men who work for the outsourced company.
Been rather peaceful.
Council staff went on strike a few years back - and most people didn't notice as they are no longer using council services.
Housing, and refuse dealt with by other companies.

 

[thetiger2015]

Since outsourcing of refuse collection I don't recall seeing any strikes by the bin men who work for the outsourced company.
Been rather peaceful.
Council staff went on strike a few years back - and most people didn't notice as they are no longer using council services.
Housing, and refuse dealt with by other companies.

...because it's no longer as simple as just 'going on strike'. The laws have all been updated. If you walk off to go on strike, you're AWOL/ in breach of contract etc. You risk immediate dismissal.

Very difficult for anyone to go on strike these days. Even if you and all your mates walk off, you are replaced by agency staff and immediately suspended pending investigation in to your conduct.

So, when people say everything is better now, there are not many strikes anymore because the workers are happy...not true.

 

[Mr D]

...because it's no longer as simple as just 'going on strike'. The laws have all been updated. If you walk off to go on strike, you're AWOL/ in breach of contract etc. You risk immediate dismissal.

Very difficult for anyone to go on strike these days. Even if you and all your mates walk off, you are replaced by agency staff and immediately suspended pending investigation in to your conduct.

So, when people say everything is better now, there are not many strikes anymore because the workers are happy...not true.

As a user of services that previously were subject to strikes, I prefer no strikes.
The workers may or may not be happy - the customers are happier.

 

[fisicx]

We've had appointments at the tip since they re-opened after the first lock down, and it's a brilliant system. No more queuing. I really hope they keep it.

Theoretically you can be asked to provide evidence of residency, especially at sites close to the border with another authority, but I have never been asked.

Same here. In and out in minutes rather than sitting in a queue.

The only thing they charge for is building waste. So that ends up dumped by the side of the road. The latest trick by the cowboys is to drive to a quiet country lane in the middle of the night and tip it onto the road as they drive along.

 

[MBE2017]

The latest trick by the cowboys is to drive to a quiet country lane in the middle of the night and tip it onto the road as they drive along.

They have been doing that for many years in most parts of the country.

 

[IanSuth]

..

Very difficult for anyone to go on strike these days. Even if you and all your mates walk off, you are replaced by agency staff and immediately suspended pending investigation in to your conduct.

.

That can't happen as it is specifically outlawed if it is official industrial action

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2003/3319/regulation/7/made
Restriction on providing work-seekers in industrial disputes
7.—(1) Subject to paragraph (2) an employment business shall not introduce or supply a work-seeker to a hirer to perform—

(a)the duties normally performed by a worker who is taking part in a strike or other industrial action (“the first worker”), or

(b)the duties normally performed by any other worker employed by the hirer and who is assigned by the hirer to perform the duties normally performed by the first worker,

unless in either case the employment business does not know, and has no reasonable grounds for knowing, that the first worker is taking part in a strike or other industrial action.

The unions would be all over the employer and agency if they did

 

[Office Mover]

Where do we start ?
Lets go from the very top in 2021 !

Your average haulage company will charge between £1.20 a mile to £2.00 a mile for a 40 ton truck ( biggest ones on the roads )
We charge £1.80 a mile for a luton van !
£1.20 a mile for a small van with a smaller and more economical engine than your car !

So these businesses are running at such low margins that there is no money to do anything !
Companies are tightly regulated by the government and have to jump through hoops on a daily basis to satisfy vehicle maintenance and safety management .Along with daily driver safety reporting
The overheads to run one one of these operations are frighting

There has been a shortage of drivers for a considerable amount of years now mostly due to the poor pay and conditions !
The drivers that moved here from the EU have helped to fill the gap but with us leaving the EU many have returned home or gone to work in other EU states .

The pay for a skilled driver is appalling . They earn anything between 25 to 35 K but most are out all week and sleeping in the cab with no real comfort and meals or access to showers and washing facilities .
We all know older experienced drivers who have very poor physical health as driving all day for most of your life is an occupation that is very bad for you .

If you make a mistake in your job What can happen ?. Probably not much !
If you make a mistake in a truck you could highly likely end up in prison .
So you get low pay , poor health , sleep in a tin box all your life and possibly end up in jail and you will get fat and your significant other might divorce you ( another stat !)
Who the hell in 2021 would want to do that ?

I dont actually think that there is a solution some larger companies still run apprenticeships Gregorys Distribution train new drivers along with Stobarts .
The reality is that this job is quite an old fashioned way of life despite modern trucks being equipped like spaceships Young people just dont want to do it .
They want to be Instagram influencers what ever that is

I agree margins are tight! The problem in our industry (Commercial Removals), certainly with public contracts, is that we have to comply with more and more accreditation and certification, like FORS, C.H.A.S, for example which all adds significantly to our overheads, and at the same time we are expected to offer the best rates on tenders which are often awarded on 70% price!

 

[japancool]

John Lewis say they don't have a driver shortage because they raised wages.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-58589750

 

[JEREMY HAWKE]

I agree margins are tight! The problem in our industry (Commercial Removals), certainly with public contracts, is that we have to comply with more and more accreditation and certification, like FORS, C.H.A.S, for example which all adds significantly to our overheads, and at the same time we are expected to offer the best rates on tenders which are often awarded on 70% price!

You have to move away from these types of organisations into better markets if you can
Public contracts are the biggest farce going . You would not deal with a private customer asking for a reduction with a high level of admin work
Your position is going to become impossible as drivers will be demanding a higher rate of pay and they wont stay with you if they are being offered a better standard of living working out of the same town !

 

[Clodbuster]

Companies now offering >£50.000.

 

[Victor A]

Here's my thought on some of the ways to solve the problem:
Firstly, Government policies - that should address investment in HGV trainings, working conditions, etc. Also business shouldn't wait for legislation before treating their employees well - I know 'most' employees will remaining loyal if they are treated well, businesses can make healthy profit without engaging in unethical hiring pracitices.

Technology - For instance, Railway should be used more for transporting goods, not to replace HGV drivers but to compliment and address the shortages - since most are running empty or at reduced services. Another example, Magway - "A world-changing, all-electric, zero-emissions, low-footprint, high-capacity delivery system." I must declare I own a share. Another example, Cybertrucks even though is unpopular with some. Government should be working to address jobs losses in one industry by working with industries and academics to train the people for jobs that'd be created in future industry.

 

[Chris Ashdown]

Long long long time ago Britain had a great freight service operated from all the major stations

From Great Yarmouth with the oil industry you could fill a freight train at 5pm and the train would be in Aberdeen the next morning

You could load you car onto a train in London and get off in Scotland

Most cities had container depots where they were loaded onto trains etc

All this traffic went to lorries after British Rail considered it only dealt with bulk and passengers

 

[Clodbuster]

Don't think that is true, businesses preferred to send door to door with the improvement of roads and vehicles proved the rail downfall.

 

[IanSuth]

Long long long time ago Britain had a great freight service operated from all the major stations

From Great Yarmouth with the oil industry you could fill a freight train at 5pm and the train would be in Aberdeen the next morning

You could load you car onto a train in London and get off in Scotland

Most cities had container depots where they were loaded onto trains etc

All this traffic went to lorries after British Rail considered it only dealt with bulk and passengers

Do you mean National Carriers ?

When i was growing up on a farm every farmer locally had sheds made from the bodies of ex National Carrier lorries and hay trailers made from the trailer chassis - they were all sold off cheap at auction somewhen early 70's.

But we used to take a tractor and trailer to the UKFertilizer depot in the sidings by Horsham station every autumn and get the pallets loaded straight on the trailer - the warehouse had a trainline running straight into it for the deliveries (and there was a Pickfords furniture repository next door which dealt with long distance furniture removal via train) - surely makes more sense than HGV's delivering to each farm as we could collect around our schedule rather than trying to make a truck and 4 or 5 farmers schedules coincide

 

[thetiger2015]

That can't happen as it is specifically outlawed if it is official industrial action


The unions would be all over the employer and agency if they did

Yes, exactly as I said....'official industrial action'....you cannot just go on strike. Trying to get to the 'official industrial action' bit is not as simple as just sending a letter or calling someone. You really need to be Union represented, even then, there are multiple layers of procedures in place before anyone can protest things like working conditions or excessive working hours. If you wander off to with a placard, you're going to get dismissed and replaced, as you've left your post without seeking a formal resolution to any grievances beforehand.

The other reason for the increase in HGVs instead of trains/boats is that the Gov can tax each, individual vehicle and driver. Pots more money to blow on things like...a yacht for the PM for example. Train = 1 x driver 1 x vehicle, the equivalent could be 10 HGVS, 10 Drivers, all individually taxed or fined for multiple things through-out the year.

 

[Mr D]

Here's my thought on some of the ways to solve the problem:
Firstly, Government policies - that should address investment in HGV trainings, working conditions, etc. Also business shouldn't wait for legislation before treating their employees well - I know 'most' employees will remaining loyal if they are treated well, businesses can make healthy profit without engaging in unethical hiring pracitices.

Technology - For instance, Railway should be used more for transporting goods, not to replace HGV drivers but to compliment and address the shortages - since most are running empty or at reduced services. Another example, Magway - "A world-changing, all-electric, zero-emissions, low-footprint, high-capacity delivery system." I must declare I own a share. Another example, Cybertrucks even though is unpopular with some. Government should be working to address jobs losses in one industry by working with industries and academics to train the people for jobs that'd be created in future industry.
@JEREMY HAWKE, I see benefits in being able to create and distribute compelling content about your business/product to reach millions

Businesses can offer better pay and conditions and perks without government involvement, agreed.
Not sure why government should be involved in HGV training. Is there any particular need for government involvement? Are government good at figuring out who needs training and supplying said training?

Railway already transports goods, quite a bit of it. Stuff not suitable for road transport or where rail is a better option. Adding freight to passenger services ..... do you mind slower passenger service? Personally when I need to travel by train its multiple hours travel time, really don't want to extend that.
Lying down on carriage floor as seats all full for a couple of hours isn't great. Lying down for longer is worse.

 

[roydmoorian]

...because it's no longer as simple as just 'going on strike'. The laws have all been updated. If you walk off to go on strike, you're AWOL/ in breach of contract etc. You risk immediate dismissal.

Very difficult for anyone to go on strike these days. Even if you and all your mates walk off, you are replaced by agency staff and immediately suspended pending investigation in to your conduct.

So, when people say everything is better now, there are not many strikes anymore because the workers are happy...not true.

No need for HGV drivers to go “on strike” under the present circumstances - Simply leave a reasonably paid job and walk into another with a golden hello ….

 

[Mr D]

Has anyone found out yet if there is 100,000 HGV's sitting idle? Or if demand is actually 100,000 rather than immediate need of that size but overall only 50,000 needed?

The media is good at shouting headlines, not so good at thinking the problem through or finding out if there is sufficient supply of tractor units.

 

[DontAsk]

https://assets.publishing.service.g...747/domestic-road-freight-statistics-2019.pdf says 500000 registered in the UK in 2019.

I suspect that 20% are not sitting idle.

 

[DontAsk]

Near us there is a landcape "improvement" scheme to fill in old quarry working with the crap from building sites, etc., so they can be turned into fishing lakes. Some dodgy dealing around the planning application by a local councillor means all of the traffic is routed past out front door.

Schemes like this would be the first to suffer, you would think, if petrol and food supplies really are in jeopardy.

I see no evidence of a shortage of HGV drivers.

 

[IanSuth]

My tanker driving teammates opinion is what we are seeing is a couple of large firms used mainly subcontractors, those subcontractors were using agency drivers on an as needed basis to keep their costs down to fulfil the contracts at minimum cost. Remember all Tanker drivers can drive HGV's but not all HGV drivers have an ADR certificates needed to haul tankers of petrol

The well publicised shortage of HGV drivers has hit them hard really because they don't have margin to pay the rates now demanded, so they have decided not meeting their contractual obligations is cheaper than losing money on every load. Hence why initially it was just a couple of companies pumps that were running short.

Then the press and inept politicians stepped in and made a crisis out of a small issue

 

[DontAsk]

I don't think it was the politicians this time. I subscribe to the selective leaking by the Road Haulage Association theory. But they forgot to leak the bit were it was made clear that it (petrol delivery issues) had been going on for a few weeks and that it was only very few garages affected, i.e., not really a problem.

 

[fisicx]

Then the press and inept politicians stepped in and made a crisis out of a small issue

Maybe I missed it but not sure the politicians said anything to cause the crisis. Everything I’ve seen suggests they told everyone not to panic buy.

 

[roydmoorian]

Maybe I missed it but not sure the politicians said anything to cause the crisis. Everything I’ve seen suggests they told everyone not to panic buy.

“Don’t panic Mr Mannering” is exactly what sets the lemmings off.

 

[MikeJ]

Has anyone found out yet if there is 100,000 HGV's sitting idle? Or if demand is actually 100,000 rather than immediate need of that size but overall only 50,000 needed?

The media is good at shouting headlines, not so good at thinking the problem through or finding out if there is sufficient supply of tractor units.

The 100,000 figure comes from the Road Haulage Association (or something like that). They based it on there being a need for 60,000 in 2016 (before Brexit) and estimating the reduction in drivers since then, due to Brexit, natural wastage, etc.

 

[The Byre]

My tanker driving teammates opinion is what we are seeing is a couple of large firms used mainly subcontractors, those subcontractors were using agency drivers on an as needed basis to keep their costs down to fulfil the contracts at minimum cost. Remember all Tanker drivers can drive HGV's but not all HGV drivers have an ADR certificates needed to haul tankers of petrol

The well publicised shortage of HGV drivers has hit them hard really because they don't have margin to pay the rates now demanded, so they have decided not meeting their contractual obligations is cheaper than losing money on every load. Hence why initially it was just a couple of companies pumps that were running short.

Then the press and inept politicians stepped in and made a crisis out of a small issue

Ian has nailed the issue in one!

A responsible company whose business it is to move stuff, in this case oil, employs its own drivers and has its own trucks and regional storage and pays people properly so that they do not up-sticks and join an agency.

 

[IanSuth]

Maybe I missed it but not sure the politicians said anything to cause the crisis. Everything I’ve seen suggests they told everyone not to panic buy.

We have spent the last 18 months with the same politicians saying "we wont need facemasks" "we won't need another lockdown" "it'll all be over in a few months" "we don't need to close the borders" "We can reopen schools safely" only for the exact opposite to follow shortly after.

I don't remember a time when there was less trust in politicians - if a cabinet minister came out tomorrow and said "there is no chance of a sudden October heat wave" I would expect a sudden rush to buy sun cream

 

[The Byre]

Other hard and fast promises made by this government include such gems as

• We shall never abandon the triple-lock!
• There will never be a border in the Irish Sea!
• There will be no raising of National Insurance.

I wonder what comes next?

 

[Newchodge]

We have spent the last 18 months with the same politicians saying "we wont need facemasks" "we won't need another lockdown" "it'll all be over in a few months" "we don't need to close the borders" "We can reopen schools safely" only for the exact opposite to follow shortly after.

I don't remember a time when there was less trust in politicians - if a cabinet minister came out tomorrow and said "there is no chance of a sudden October heat wave" I would expect a sudden rush to buy sun cream

As I understand it The coversation went:

Grant Shapps: Please don't p-n-cc b--, there's no need

Interviewer: Sorry Minister, didn't quite catch that. Don't what?

Grant Shapps: PANIC BUY

 

[japancool]

A responsible company whose business it is to move stuff, in this case oil, employs its own drivers and has its own trucks and regional storage and pays people properly so that they do not up-sticks and join an agency.

Fancy that, the idea of paying people properly.

 

[Mr D]

The 100,000 figure comes from the Road Haulage Association (or something like that). They based it on there being a need for 60,000 in 2016 (before Brexit) and estimating the reduction in drivers since then, due to Brexit, natural wastage, etc.

So we don't know what the actual need is. Just an estimated one. With the media of course screaming headlines.

Is it likely that 100,00 tractor units are sat around needing drivers? Is it likely that 100,000 people are needed long term? Can imagine a few tens of thousands needed short term at least - but do they have vehicles to drive?
Just got to imagine, if we were coping fine in 2016 with 60,000 needed back then without consumers or retailers noticing, do we need just another 40,000 - 50,000 now?

 

[NickGrogan]

Do we have enough petrol for 100,000 HGVs?

Or parking spaces?

 

[Mr D]

Do we have enough petrol for 100,000 HGVs?

Or parking spaces?

No we don't have enough petrol for them.
What with so many of them running on diesel these days.

Parking spaces? Probably not. Some of the trucker support services appear to have closed down or moved away.

 

[NickGrogan]

Someone should tell the government

"Government to ban sale of new diesel and petrol HGVs from 2040"

https://www.theengineer.co.uk/government-ban-new-diesel-and-petrol-hgvs-vehicles/

Fine, do we have enough diesel for 100,000 HGVs?

 

[BDF-Anon]

There are LOADS of HGV licence holders: though, it makes more sense to shelve products at ASDA for similar pay and a lesser risk. Much lesser risk, since a 40 tons artic can kill in a blink of an eye!

Shortage:
One of our companies has a sister business in Eastern Europe, dealing with around 12,000 HGV drivers. So, they proposed to a bunch of companies - including BP - to rent them drivers. Guess what!? None was interested ...
Shortage? Probably, just muscle flexing to divert public attention from some far more serious issues ...

 

[The Byre]

One of our companies has a sister business in Eastern Europe, dealing with around 12,000 HGV drivers. So, they proposed to a bunch of companies - including BP - to rent them drivers. Guess what!? None was interested ...
Shortage? Probably, just muscle flexing to divert public attention from some far more serious issues ...

This needs to be writ large across this thread!

Let's all stop and think - why aren't the refineries backed up? Why aren't the oil tankers at sea backed up? If there was just a driver shortage, then the smallish tanks at the refineries would be full and the refineries would have to shut down or reduce output - ships at sea would be waiting to empty their loads in harbours. None of this seems to be happening - so what gives?

And above all, if the UK and other countries cannot get drivers to ferry the fuel to the customers and the whole supply chain is partially blocked, then demand for oil would drop - instead of which the wholesale price for Brent crude is now at almost $80 a barrel.

If there really is a driver shortage preventing supplies to forecourts, then the price for Brent crude would have fallen.