Buyer claims item not received but Royal Mail confirms tracked & signed delivery

Dave0108

Free Member
Oct 16, 2015
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I'm looking for some advice on the situation. Here is the rundown of events:
  1. Im trading as a limited company
  2. The sale of a £200 item was done via eBay and Paid via PayPal by customer
  3. Item was sent by Royal Mail Tracked 24 Signed service and delivered next day
  4. After 5 days buyer claims it was not delivered and opens eBay Dispute
  5. We provide tracking number and copy of shipping label and eBay denies buyers claim and rules in our favor quoting that we dont need to take any action and we are covered by eBay Seller Protection. eBay DO NOT issue buyer any refund.
  6. Buyer opens PayPal Dispute and we again provide the same info to PayPal and they also deny buyers claim saying we dont need to take any action as we are covered by PayPal Seller Protection. PayPal DO NOT issue the seller any refund.
  7. Buyer then contacts us directly and asks for a refund saying they havent received the parcel. We explain that we as a company do not trade independently and use eBay + PayPal as mediation and strictly follow their policies and their guidance for dispute resolution and that in this case its advised that claims are denied and no refund is to be given
  8. Buyer claims he went to Royal Mail depot who told him that the royal mail employee in question delivered the order to communal area of his flats and signed for it. However royal mail website does NOT say that the order was "delivered to safe place"
  9. Buyer therefore claims that it was delivered to his communal area and stolen by someone...
  10. Buyer now threatens to take the case to small claims court as he isnt happy with eBay + PayPals + Our decision
From my side I see only 2 options:
  1. Deny refund and go to court
  2. Issue refund and try to claim from Royal Mail
Has anyone dealt with similar experience? What can be recommend?
 

Dave0108

Free Member
Oct 16, 2015
63
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38
You can't deny the refund, they will simply claim it back, you will never win, if they say they don't have it, theres nothing you can do

Thanks for the replying, however I am confused by your terminology.

Buyer raised two claims, one via eBay and one via PayPal. Both claims were decided in our favour and no refund was given to the buyer.

What do you mean by "they will simply claim it back"?

My understanding is that buyer will go to small claims court with an aim of getting a CCJ (County Court Judgement) in order to force me to refund the payment. However this is ofcourse providing that the judge rules in buyers favour.
 
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Frank the Insurance guy

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    You're in a tricky position - if you refund them, I'm not sure how successful you will be getting compensation from royal mail, as they clearly say they have delivered the item, and this has been backed up by ebay and paypal.

    Initially, I suggest you refer the customer back to the Paypal and Ebay dispute resolutions which are clear.....then see what happens.

    If they do go to the small claims route, you can refund then to avoid the hassle, or you can go through the whole process - if you lose the case, this will give you some evidence to get compensation from Royal Mail.
     
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    Dave0108

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    Oct 16, 2015
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    You're in a tricky position - if you refund them, I'm not sure how successful you will be getting compensation from royal mail, as they clearly say they have delivered the item, and this has been backed up by ebay and paypal.

    Initially, I suggest you refer the customer back to the Paypal and Ebay dispute resolutions which are clear.....then see what happens.

    If they do go to the small claims route, you can refund then to avoid the hassle, or you can go through the whole process - if you lose the case, this will give you some evidence to get compensation from Royal Mail.

    Many thanks for your insight. The one thing that worries me about Small Claims Court is how much extra fees I will be responsible for in addition to the cost of the transaction if I lose? Can buyer claim a much higher number for his wasted time etc? Or is small claims court limited strictly to the amount of the sale in question?
     
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    Frank the Insurance guy

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    Sorry @Dave0108 , not sure on what they can claim. Think its direct costs only, being the cost of the goods, but may also include the costs of bringing the case to the small claims court.

    No doubt one of our members will know and be along soon to confirm.
     
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    Dave0108

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    Oct 16, 2015
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    Let me ask you a question, who do you think is at fault here, the customer, you, or your courier

    My personal opinion is that buyer is at fault based on the evidence I have available to me. Tracking does not suggest that it was delivered to safe place or delivered to neighbor as the buyer is claiming he was told at the depot.

    P.S. In addition to above I find that customers who start firing disputes via eBay and PayPal before even sending the seller a single message to ask for information are very suspicious to begin with.
     
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    In pre-Covid days a 'Tracked and Signed For' delivery (like Special Delivery) would be signed for by the buyer at the delivery address. The contract would therefore be complete and it would be difficult/impossible to deny delivery.

    At present, the delivery is signed for by the post-person, not the buyer. If the seller can't prove delivery and the buyer denies it, the onus is on the seller to refund or replace. Neither Ebay nor Paypal can actually prove that delivery took place.

    My guess is that a court would side with the buyer, unless you can prove delivery or prove the buyer instructed delivery go to a 'safe place'. It's unfair (and potentially a thieves charter) but that's the way it is.

    The obvious solution would be for the Royal Mail to do what other courier services do and photograph the package at the buyers doorstep.
     
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    Dave0108

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    In pre-Covid days a 'Tracked and Signed For' delivery (like Special Delivery) would be signed for by the buyer at the delivery address. The contract would therefore be complete and it would be difficult/impossible to deny delivery.

    At present, the delivery is signed for by the post-person, not the buyer. If the seller can't prove delivery and the buyer denies it, the onus is on the seller to refund or replace. Neither Ebay nor Paypal can actually prove that delivery took place.

    My guess is that a court would side with the buyer, unless you can prove delivery or prove the buyer instructed delivery go to a 'safe place'. It's unfair (and potentially a thieves charter) but that's the way it is.

    The obvious solution would be for the Royal Mail to do what other courier services do and photograph the package at the buyers doorstep.

    Thanks for the reply. I guess I really have no choice but to refund the buyer as waiting until I am served with small claims court is only going to escalate the costs. Yet another cost to write off under the ever-growing list of costs of doing business...
     
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    kulture

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    If you genuinely believe that the buyer is trying to scam you then wait for the small claims to be raised. Then refund. It will not cost you more than what the buyer paid you.

    It may be too late, but I would consider contacting the buyer and asking them to help you claim against the Royal Mail. Because if they genuinely have not received the goods it is really the Royal Mail at fault.
     
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    Dave0108

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    If you genuinely believe that the buyer is trying to scam you then wait for the small claims to be raised. Then refund. It will not cost you more than what the buyer paid you.

    It may be too late, but I would consider contacting the buyer and asking them to help you claim against the Royal Mail. Because if they genuinely have not received the goods it is really the Royal Mail at fault.

    The buyer appears to be some form of the "professional" victim in the way he acted. He didn't respond or send any messages and raised an ebay case and when that failed a paypal case. Only when that failed he responded and said that he didnt receive the parcel and also checked at the depot where they allegedly said that the parcel was left in "safe place", yet the official website does not mention it. I know for a fact that when its delivered to safe place the tracking website will actually say that status. When I explained that as a company we follow all the eBay and PayPal policies and we were told that cases were found in our favour and no refund is to be given as tracking shows "delivered.", buyers next communication was "Letter Before Action" and a threat of small claims court. Whoever this person is, clearly this is not their first time as they are moving very quickly through all the available means of getting a refund.

    I would like it to go to Small Claims Court but I am desperately searching for some official info on how much the buyer can claim. Like what if he hires a solicitor to set up the small claims court and as far as I know there is a fee that is paid to the court also. Will I be liable for all these additional costs?
     
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    Jass T

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    Apr 22, 2019
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    I concur with kulture, I would wait to see if does raise a small claims court case against you. Then if he does issue a refund.
    Another thing you might want to do in the meantime is search online for the item you sent him. If he is a professional scammer he might be selling the goods online. Also if you can check his social media, he might have pictures of it depending what it is.
     
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    MBE2017

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  • Feb 16, 2017
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    Many years ago I used to email a form asking the client to fill it in, to help the RM fraud department in the investigation. It was surprising how many “found” the lost item when I pointed out fraud carried up to five years in prison. I basically asked them to sign a statement that they had never received the item and new nothing of what happened to it.
     
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    Mr D

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    Feb 12, 2017
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    I'm looking for some advice on the situation. Here is the rundown of events:
    1. Im trading as a limited company
    2. The sale of a £200 item was done via eBay and Paid via PayPal by customer
    3. Item was sent by Royal Mail Tracked 24 Signed service and delivered next day
    4. After 5 days buyer claims it was not delivered and opens eBay Dispute
    5. We provide tracking number and copy of shipping label and eBay denies buyers claim and rules in our favor quoting that we dont need to take any action and we are covered by eBay Seller Protection. eBay DO NOT issue buyer any refund.
    6. Buyer opens PayPal Dispute and we again provide the same info to PayPal and they also deny buyers claim saying we dont need to take any action as we are covered by PayPal Seller Protection. PayPal DO NOT issue the seller any refund.
    7. Buyer then contacts us directly and asks for a refund saying they havent received the parcel. We explain that we as a company do not trade independently and use eBay + PayPal as mediation and strictly follow their policies and their guidance for dispute resolution and that in this case its advised that claims are denied and no refund is to be given
    8. Buyer claims he went to Royal Mail depot who told him that the royal mail employee in question delivered the order to communal area of his flats and signed for it. However royal mail website does NOT say that the order was "delivered to safe place"
    9. Buyer therefore claims that it was delivered to his communal area and stolen by someone...
    10. Buyer now threatens to take the case to small claims court as he isnt happy with eBay + PayPals + Our decision
    From my side I see only 2 options:
    1. Deny refund and go to court
    2. Issue refund and try to claim from Royal Mail
    Has anyone dealt with similar experience? What can be recommend?

    You do know that both you and the buyer can be right?

    More than once have had items that the tracking show as delivered yet I as a buyer have not received. No idea what address item was delivered to each time but absolutely certain it was not mine.

    If royal mail deliver to the wrong address then both you and the buyer can be correct in your views regarding the item.
    It has been delivered and the buyer has not received it.

    You can prove it was delivered. The buyer cannot prove they haven't had it. Which way it would go in a court - you can guess however legally its your responsibility until the buyer receives it.
     
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    antropy

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    From my side I see only 2 options:
    1. Deny refund and go to court
    2. Issue refund and try to claim from Royal Mail
    Has anyone dealt with similar experience? What can be recommend?
    Legally I'm sure you'd be totally fine if you just said "sure, take us to court, we're not refunding".

    However it does sound like the buyer might be genuine, in that case you might consider claiming from RoyalMail and then sending another product?

    Paul.
     
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    Mr D

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    Legally I'm sure you'd be totally fine if you just said "sure, take us to court, we're not refunding".

    However it does sound like the buyer might be genuine, in that case you might consider claiming from RoyalMail and then sending another product?

    Paul.

    Trouble with sending another product is you are doing the same job again and expecting different results. It may indeed happen.
    However its usually easier to refund and buyer can order again if they wish. Hopefully the seller adds them to blocked buyer list first so they can buy a replacement from someone else.
     
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    antropy

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    Trouble with sending another product is you are doing the same job again and expecting different results. It may indeed happen.
    Could use a different courier, or deliver it personally!

    However its usually easier to refund and buyer can order again if they wish. Hopefully the seller adds them to blocked buyer list first so they can buy a replacement from someone else.
    Bit harsh to suggest they're blocked IF they genuinely didn't receive the item. I mean who wouldn't be pretty pissed off if they paid £200 and their item wasn't received?

    Paul.
     
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    Reading the above I would also hold back until any correspondence comes through via the claims court. The buyer can also contact their bank or card issuer used for the Paypal transaction to see if they can claim a refund that way while the investigation goes on with Royal Mail.
     
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    AW-UK

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    It is hard to know if the buyer is prone to doing this kind of thing, does their eBay feedback suggest they are trustworthy?
    It sounds like they tried everything apart from their bank / card issuer to claim back.

    I don't know where you stand with RM with regards to it not being delivered to the right address, but I have had plenty of packages left outside my house and I am surprised they are still there when I return home, they are not exactly careful, one courier company slid a package between my car port wall and the next door neighbours wall, it landed on concrete and the parcel happened to be made of glass, the seller sent a new one and claimed from the courier company, but the courier companies give you the run around and you end up being piggy in the middle.

    I'd be highly suspicious of someone instantly making claims without contacting me first, I always contact the seller if any issues come up first and so far it has 100% been resolved.
     
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    D

    Deleted member 335660

    I'm looking for some advice on the situation. Here is the rundown of events:
    1. Im trading as a limited company
    2. The sale of a £200 item was done via eBay and Paid via PayPal by customer
    3. Item was sent by Royal Mail Tracked 24 Signed service and delivered next day
    4. After 5 days buyer claims it was not delivered and opens eBay Dispute
    5. We provide tracking number and copy of shipping label and eBay denies buyers claim and rules in our favor quoting that we dont need to take any action and we are covered by eBay Seller Protection. eBay DO NOT issue buyer any refund.
    6. Buyer opens PayPal Dispute and we again provide the same info to PayPal and they also deny buyers claim saying we dont need to take any action as we are covered by PayPal Seller Protection. PayPal DO NOT issue the seller any refund.
    7. Buyer then contacts us directly and asks for a refund saying they havent received the parcel. We explain that we as a company do not trade independently and use eBay + PayPal as mediation and strictly follow their policies and their guidance for dispute resolution and that in this case its advised that claims are denied and no refund is to be given
    8. Buyer claims he went to Royal Mail depot who told him that the royal mail employee in question delivered the order to communal area of his flats and signed for it. However royal mail website does NOT say that the order was "delivered to safe place"
    9. Buyer therefore claims that it was delivered to his communal area and stolen by someone...
    10. Buyer now threatens to take the case to small claims court as he isnt happy with eBay + PayPals + Our decision
    From my side I see only 2 options:
    1. Deny refund and go to court
    2. Issue refund and try to claim from Royal Mail
    Has anyone dealt with similar experience? What can be recommend?
    Concerning item 8. Have you asked Royal Mail for proof of delivery and who signed for it. What are RM’s definition of proof of delivery in terms of what is acceptable if they do not get customers signature?

    From my experience of Small Claims courts you will have to pay a set fee which you can ask to be claimed back if court finds in your favour. As far as I am aware, they will only accept claims for costs that defendent can prove, not time spent making the claim.

    You should show proof that you have done everything you can to respond to customers complaint by writing to them with your view of the matter and what options you offer the customer ( send by registered post).

    You say that the value is £200, but what has it cost you? It may be better and more cost effective to send replacement item but with some better guarantee of delivery to the customer.
     
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    paulears

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    Claiming against Royal Mail has been futile every single time I have done it. They o0pen an investigation and you are not privy to their information. They tell you they have spoken to the postman and they followed the system, the item was delivered. End of case. You have no evidence at all they delivered or didn't deliver it. If you can live with the social media slagging off, stick to your guns. I actually like your idea of leaving it with ebay and PayPal to sort saying you will accept their rulings - which do seem from my experience to be very annoying sometimes, but based on the info from both sides. One still outstanding for me was where ebay said I'm good then the customer tried his funding source - visa - to get the refund, that's now been quite a while and I'll win or lose, I have no input into it apparently.

    I do wish Royal Mail had a system that was actually workable. Going to a postman and asking if he delivered an item when the covid rules mean he scribbled on the form rather than the customer is flawed. If he scribbles on a thousand parcels a week how could he possibly remember three weeks later. It's a useless system they have let run.

    For what it is worth - Parcelforce are winning the reliability stakes at the moment for me.
     
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    It’s really all about cost and value - RM, Yodel, Hermes are ok for ubiquitous low value items which can be replaced should a delivery not go according to plan.
    Where an item is of serious value either monetary or sentimental there is nothing to beat the reliability of a dedicated direct courier and not a hub and spoke “express carrier” such as mentioned above or indeed the next level up of DHL, DPD, APC etc.
     
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    littlebonzo

    Free Member
    Jun 6, 2015
    16
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    I see that the delivery was signed for by the delivery worker due to Covid. I had a situation a few weeks ago where I sent a Royal Mail Signed For large letter and the signature read 'C19' (ie, the delivery worker had signed due to Covid). My customer was adamant the packet wasn't at his address.

    I rang Royal Mail and was (eventually) told that their GPS system showed that the packet had been mistakenly delivered to a different address. Obviously they didn't tell me the address it had been delivered to, and I can understand why there isn't a procedure in place to get packets back (from the wrong address) in this type of situation.

    However, I wasn't even aware that Royal Mail used GPS on their handsets to track deliveries. That is really quite valuable information - I wonder why they don't incorporate it into their online tracking? It would be useful to senders to be able to see whether their signed-for deliveries had actually been signed for at the correct address! I'm not saying it should display the address to which it was mis-delivered but, still, surely it can only be of benefit to the sender to know for sure that the signature was actually obtained at the correct delivery address.

    The person I spoke to didn't even volunteer the GPS information during the main part of our conversation - it was only after I was continuing to talk about how annoyed I was that she then said, 'oh, wait a minute, let me check something'. Brilliant.
     
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    swaps

    Free Member
    Jan 2, 2011
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    Blackpool
    I'm looking for some advice on the situation. Here is the rundown of events:
    1. Im trading as a limited company
    2. The sale of a £200 item was done via eBay and Paid via PayPal by customer
    3. Item was sent by Royal Mail Tracked 24 Signed service and delivered next day
    4. After 5 days buyer claims it was not delivered and opens eBay Dispute
    5. We provide tracking number and copy of shipping label and eBay denies buyers claim and rules in our favor quoting that we dont need to take any action and we are covered by eBay Seller Protection. eBay DO NOT issue buyer any refund.
    6. Buyer opens PayPal Dispute and we again provide the same info to PayPal and they also deny buyers claim saying we dont need to take any action as we are covered by PayPal Seller Protection. PayPal DO NOT issue the seller any refund.
    7. Buyer then contacts us directly and asks for a refund saying they havent received the parcel. We explain that we as a company do not trade independently and use eBay + PayPal as mediation and strictly follow their policies and their guidance for dispute resolution and that in this case its advised that claims are denied and no refund is to be given
    8. Buyer claims he went to Royal Mail depot who told him that the royal mail employee in question delivered the order to communal area of his flats and signed for it. However royal mail website does NOT say that the order was "delivered to safe place"
    9. Buyer therefore claims that it was delivered to his communal area and stolen by someone...
    10. Buyer now threatens to take the case to small claims court as he isnt happy with eBay + PayPals + Our decision
    From my side I see only 2 options:
    1. Deny refund and go to court
    2. Issue refund and try to claim from Royal Mail
    Has anyone dealt with similar experience? What can be recommend?


    Surely this is down to royal mail. They did not delivery to the correct person and signed for the good themselves. I would make a claim on them. Hopefully you paid for insurance ?
     
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    AW-UK

    Free Member
    Aug 23, 2021
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    I had a issue with DHL way before Covid, back in 2017 / 2018, where they notified me they had a package for me but couldn't leave it as a customs duty of £17 was due on it, well, since I paid only £10 for it in the first place I phoned them up and said if I didn't want to pay the duty what would happen, and they said they would send the parcel back to the sender, so I said, OK, I explained to them that I only paid £10 for it in the first place and didn't value the goods at £27, about a month later I got laid with a "invoice" for the £17 so I called them up and they said that they left the package with a neighbour and that I owed them £17, so I checked with the neighbours and none of them had it (it was bare PCB's so it wouldn't be of any use to them), so I went around in circles with DHL, they showed me a "signature" and in the end I said you had better come and fetch the package back from the neighbour you left it with as none of them are owning up to taking it and I don't recognise the name of the signature, they left it 6 months, tried again with an "invoice" and threatening legal action, so I called them again, explained it all to them again, and they said they would pass it over to their legal team and I have heard nothing back from them since, I kept asking them why they would leave the package when I wasn't going to pay the duty and that is certainly not their policy, they couldn't answer me nor could they tell me at which house number they left the package so I told them straight I thought they had got rid of the package and are trying it on by lying to me, silence, I also told them that all of their calls had been recorded, which they had as I had a recording app on my phone that records calls and I told them I would play them back my previous conversation with them if they wanted, but they declined. Just keep fighting!
     
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    littlebonzo

    Free Member
    Jun 6, 2015
    16
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    It does sometimes show a map on the Royal Mail Track and Trace site. Had a customer a few weeks ago said his parcel hadn't been delivered. Checked the map on Track and Trace and turned out it was delivered to the right number of the wrong street!
    Does it really? I wonder why it shows it sometimes but not others. Did the online tracking show details of the actual address that your parcel had been delivered to?

    That would be really useful - not so much in terms of trying to get a parcel back (if the person who had the parcel at the wrong address was anything but reasonable, it could get messy) but more in terms of peace of mind, knowing that your tracked parcel was actually delivered to the correct address. If a parcel isn't delivered to the correct address, surely the sender should know that straight away, rather than having to ring Royal Mail to chase but then only being told near the end of the conversation (by chance) that the parcel was mis-delivered.
     
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    DefinitelyMaybeUK

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    Jan 12, 2021
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    Does it really?
    We use Tracked 24 and of late, all tracking has shown the delivery location map and GPS coordinates - you can copy these and paste into google maps (just remove the degree symbols and N & W letter) - you can then view as a streetview - beware it doesn't appear to be doorstep accurate, more middle of the road (literally), but would confirm wrong street though :)
     
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    littlebonzo

    Free Member
    Jun 6, 2015
    16
    1
    We use Tracked 24 and of late, all tracking has shown the delivery location map and GPS coordinates - you can copy these and paste into google maps (just remove the degree symbols and N & W letter) - you can then view as a streetview - beware it doesn't appear to be doorstep accurate, more middle of the road (literally), but would confirm wrong street though :)
    That sounds good! Well, at least Royal Mail seems to moving in the right direction with this - even if some of their parcels don't :D
     
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    00MiraL

    Free Member
    Sep 7, 2021
    1
    0
    I'm looking for some advice on the situation. Here is the rundown of events:
    1. Im trading as a limited company
    2. The sale of a £200 item was done via eBay and Paid via PayPal by customer
    3. Item was sent by Royal Mail Tracked 24 Signed service and delivered next day
    4. After 5 days buyer claims it was not delivered and opens eBay Dispute
    5. We provide tracking number and copy of shipping label and eBay denies buyers claim and rules in our favor quoting that we dont need to take any action and we are covered by eBay Seller Protection. eBay DO NOT issue buyer any refund.
    6. Buyer opens PayPal Dispute and we again provide the same info to PayPal and they also deny buyers claim saying we dont need to take any action as we are covered by PayPal Seller Protection. PayPal DO NOT issue the seller any refund.
    7. Buyer then contacts us directly and asks for a refund saying they havent received the parcel. We explain that we as a company do not trade independently and use eBay + PayPal as mediation and strictly follow their policies and their guidance for dispute resolution and that in this case its advised that claims are denied and no refund is to be given
    8. Buyer claims he went to Royal Mail depot who told him that the royal mail employee in question delivered the order to communal area of his flats and signed for it. However royal mail website does NOT say that the order was "delivered to safe place"
    9. Buyer therefore claims that it was delivered to his communal area and stolen by someone...
    10. Buyer now threatens to take the case to small claims court as he isnt happy with eBay + PayPals + Our decision
    From my side I see only 2 options:
    1. Deny refund and go to court
    2. Issue refund and try to claim from Royal Mail
    Has anyone dealt with similar experience? What can be recommend?

    There is no way Royal Mail would tell a customer that, so that is something you should note first. You cannot make a claim from Royal Mail, you won't win. The customer needs to fill a form with Royal Mail directly to claim none delivery. I guess only the customer can do this. If Royal Mail has proof of delivery and customer is disputing it then the customer's claim is with Royal Mail.

    If the case should be taken to court again the only evidence you have is your 'proof of delivery' which by the way is a solid evidence if signed for which would be against the customer's word of mouth.

    Let Royal Mail provide a written evidence to the customer that the item was delivered to the communal area then you can even start negotiating then. But from your standpoint with what you have said there is no error on your part, don't let eBay buyers intimidate you.
     
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    Dave0108

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    Oct 16, 2015
    63
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    UPDATE:

    In case anyone is curious how this ended.

    Buyer opened a credit card chargeback and after few weeks I received the following from PayPal:

    "We received notice from the buyer's card provider that case ID PP-D-************* has been decided in the buyer's favour. As a valued customer, we won't debit your PayPal account for the disputed amount."

    So the buyer still got their refund, and I still kept my payment for the goods that I shipped, while PayPal decided to eat the cost of this refund.
     
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