Electric Cars - your opinion?

[Chris Ashdown]

Formula 1 cars seem to survive quite fast accidents where the Battery does not explode or catch fire, though there is the danger of a live car, also Formula E are all electric and happy to bash into each other

Also use lithium batteries on the Boeing 777 but did have some problems at first

 

[gpietersz]

@alan1302 @Mr D petrol does not explode all that easily or violently. If you look at videos of Molotov cocktails/petrol bombs they cause a fire not an explosion.

That is why cars need elaborate mechanisms to mix fuel and air to get the required explosions in the cylinders.

 

[billybob99]

I'll take the risk of exploding and dying young vs smoking all these slow duds in their Land Rovers and X6's taking all day.

Time is money.

 

[alan1302]

@alan1302 @Mr D petrol does not explode all that easily or violently. If you look at videos of Molotov cocktails/petrol bombs they cause a fire not an explosion.

The batteries in electric cars don't explode easily either though - just as smartphones/laptops/smart watched don't explode all the time. The batteries are a well known and safe technoloy to use.

 

[Mark T Jones]

I did briefly contemplat a Jaguar i-Pace. Shortly aftwards we nt on a holiday to Wales, which involved a range-killing journey in excess of 350 miles & an end location where charging would have been impossible

The following month I did 630 miles in a day on business, which remided me why I really don't wish to be an early adopter.

Also, I'm convinced that all-electric isn't the future & I'm happy to let others do the Beta on alternatives.

I know what my next car will e - it was to be my target for this year, but has now moved back by perhaps a couple of years.

It will be petrol.

 

[Gordon - Commercial Finance]

I did briefly contemplat a Jaguar i-Pace. Shortly aftwards we nt on a holiday to Wales, which involved a range-killing journey in excess of 350 miles & an end location where charging would have been impossible

The following month I did 630 miles in a day on business, which remided me why I really don't wish to be an early adopter.

Also, I'm convinced that all-electric isn't the future & I'm happy to let others do the Beta on alternatives.

I know what my next car will e - it was to be my target for this year, but has now moved back by perhaps a couple of years.

It will be petrol.

M4!!!!

 

[Mark T Jones]

M4!!!!

Alpina

 

[gpietersz]

The batteries in electric cars don't explode easily either though - just as smartphones/laptops/smart watched don't explode all the time. The batteries are a well known and safe technoloy to use.

It is apparently easy enough to do deliberately that carrying laptops in aircraft cabins was banned for a while. There have been lots of cases of laptops and phone batteries causing fires or burning people. I believe there are regulations about transporting lithium batteries.

There are two issues here:

1. How easy it is to deliberately cause batteries to explode.
2. How likely accidental explosions/thermal runaway are.

Are batteries likely to be more of a hazard than the other fuels?

I have do idea. I would like to know. Its really two questions: deliberate and accidental hazards may be very different - a safety features may be bypassed.

 

[Darren_Ssc]

I have do idea. I would like to know. Its really two questions: deliberate and accidental hazards may be very different - a safety features may be bypassed.

This morning I sat on the M27 for an hour because of accident involving a lorry and 2 cars. These are frequent and have nothing to do with the fuel used, they are usually the result of people bringing their ego with them on a road trip.

This is what worries me most about driving a car; the potential of my car suddenly exploding doesn't really cross my mind.

 

[gpietersz]

This is what worries me most about driving a car; the potential of my car suddenly exploding doesn't really cross my mind.

Which avoids the question I asked, which is whether batteries could be used to rig bombs.

We already know that petrol and inflammable gases are not easy to make bombs out of (remember the terrorists who tried to use petrol + natural gas tanks to create bombs? They failed to go off and would have done little damage is they did). We also know that lithium batteries are a significant fire safety risk, so could they be used deliberately destructively?

I agree the risk is small compared to car accidents, but terrorism is generally regarded as a greater concern

 

[billybob99]

How have we gone from electric cars to terrorism.

There was a terrorist attack recently using a normal car and just driving it into people.

 

[ffox]

We already know that petrol and inflammable gases are not easy to make bombs out of (remember the terrorists who tried to use petrol + natural gas tanks to create bombs? They failed to go off and would have done little damage is they did). We also know that lithium batteries are a significant fire safety risk, so could they be used deliberately destructively?

Strictly speaking there are no explosions in an internal combustion engine. There is a rapid burn of inflammable gas which pushes a piston down in a controlled manner.

Explosion happens when the rapid burn of inflammable material causes expansion that the container fails to contain. Resulting in a shattering of the containing vessel.

You can cause an explosion with almost any inflammable material if it is contained in a vessel that will shatter when pressure reaches a critical point. The trick is determining when that point will occur.

 

[Clodbuster]

A Tesla drove from Lands end to John o Groats in +/- 15 hours with just 1.5 hours charging on the trip. September 12th. Only one Tesla charger was used - others were standard.

We drove from here to Ashford Kent last weekend 170 miles getting there without charging, plugged into my sisters house over the weekend and drove back Sunday.

If you are a half full guy, I think that is OK - if you are anti then that won't be OK.

 

[Darren_Ssc]

We also know that lithium batteries are a significant fire safety risk, so could they be used deliberately destructively?

I'd guess they could be but considering you can make a very effective bomb from fertiliser, why bother?

 

[The Byre]

I'd guess they could be but considering you can make a very effective bomb from fertiliser, why bother?

Yes, but you still need a battery, wires, a detonator and a catalyst - whereas you can turn a LI battery into a fire-bomb with just a wire.

 

[gpietersz]

@Darren_Ssc very few people buy large quantities of fertiliser, and its a suspicious transaction people may notice -especially if you buy fertiliser with a sufficient proportion of ammonium nitrate in it to make explosives.

It also does not seem to be all that easy: you need the fertiliser, you need fuel to mix with it, you need need to mix them correctly, and you need a detonator.

 

[Darren_Ssc]

It also does not seem to be all that easy: you need the fertiliser, you need fuel to mix with it, you need need to mix them correctly, and you need a detonator.

No, not as easy as getting control of a fleet of Teslas and fiddling with the batteries?

 

[gpietersz]

@Darren_Ssc a fleet of Teslas? I am thinking about people buying second hand cars or just buying batteries as spare parts.

Batteries are energy dense. How many do you need to cause an explosion comparable with, say, a van load of fertilizer mix?

 

[Darren_Ssc]

@Darren_Ssc a fleet of Teslas? I am thinking about people buying second hand cars or just buying batteries as spare parts.

Batteries are energy dense. How many do you need to cause an explosion comparable with, say, a van load of fertilizer mix?

Try Googling it but don't be surprised if results in unwanted attention.

 

[alan1302]

@Darren_Ssc a fleet of Teslas? I am thinking about people buying second hand cars or just buying batteries as spare parts.

Batteries are energy dense. How many do you need to cause an explosion comparable with, say, a van load of fertilizer mix?

Some info:

https://www.quora.com/Can-electric-cars-explode

 

[gpietersz]

@Darren_Ssc I tried (although I used DuckDuckGo - I usually do) but did not find anything that helps me compare.

 

[Gordon - Commercial Finance]

All understands that electric cars are our future, but now when electrical car have a middle range of using battery, is better to buy a hybrid one, because you can use your battery and if it's gone you start engine that uses fuel and that's practical if you need to drive a lot per day but if you use your car to go only to work and market for a short range, electrical is best choice.

Not a single string of words in this convulsion inducing yarn is true.

 

[gpietersz]

@alan1302 thanks, that is interesting. Putting it together with other things I have read:

1. I do not know whether electric cars are more of less likely to catch fire than petrol.
2. I do not know how difficult it would be to deliberately cause and explosion or fire
3. If batteries do catch on fire the fires are hard to put out and have a scary tendency to re-ignite.

I do know that petrol rarely ignites by accident and diesel even less so.

 

[Mark T Jones]

I was chatting yesterday to an acquantance who is heavily involved in the automotive industry.

He maintains that the unofficial - official line is that we will be 40% electric-enabled by 2030 - the obvious immediate stumbling block being charging infrastructure.

He is also entirely of the view that the current (pun) electric format is just an interlude and that the real future is hydrogen

 

[Clodbuster]

He is also entirely of the view that the current (pun) electric format is just an interlude and that the real future is hydrogen

Hydrogen - what is the point?

"As of 2020, the majority of hydrogen (∼95%) is produced from fossil fuels by steam reforming of natural gas, partial oxidation of methane, and coal gasification. Other methods of hydrogen production include biomass gasification and electrolysis of water."

I thought we were getting AWAY from fossil fuel? I know that only water is emitted.
Hydrogen is as flammable, perhaps more so, than petrol. The old Hydrogen airships spring to mind.

 

[gpietersz]

As of 2020, the majority of hydrogen (∼95%) is produced from fossil fuels by steam reforming of natural gas, partial oxidation of methane, and coal gasification. Other methods of hydrogen production include biomass gasification and electrolysis of water.

At the moment its mostly produced from fossil fuels, but even with that method its possible to capture the carbon rather than emit CO2 as you would using the fossil fuel directly and, as you say, it burns cleaner.

It can also be produced by electrolysis, which is as clean as the electricity used to power it, but inefficient.

There are other sources and methods. there was a recent announcement of a new method using microwaves which is more efficient than electrolysis.

Hydrogen is as flammable, perhaps more so, than petrol.

It depends on how its stored. It has some advantages - for example, leaked hydrogen will rise and disperse rather than collecting.

You also have the option of using it in a fuel cell (which is what I think most hydrogen cars are doing) to generate electricity without flames, so what you will have in a hydrogen car is a refillable battery. That also gives you all the other advantages of electric cars.

Batteries of other types also use stored chemical energy, and effectively work by "burning" something. Its probably not possible to eliminate fire (or other violent reaction) hazard.

 

[bodgitt&scarperLTD]

Not a single string of words in this convulsion inducing yarn is true.

It reflects very badly upon this forum that obvious spam bots are allowed to continue. I keep reporting them but nothing happens.

 

[UKSBD]

English obviously isn't their 1st language (if not a bot)

But I would translate what they say as;
we know Electric cars are coming, but at the moment the range isn't good on a lot of them, so at the moment it's best to buy a hybrid, unless you only do short journeys.

What they say makes sense to me.
Nothing in the rules about having bad English

 

[UKSBD]

I keep reporting them but nothing happens.

How are you reporting them?
I haven't seen any reports, looking back I see a few replies to their posts, this does more harm than good, use the report function rather than replying to them.

 

[The Byre]

This has to be about as uninformed a debate on this subject as I have come across anywhere!

Fortunately, nobody here runs one of the many car companies that are investing billions into hydrogen cars and electrolysis plants.

 

[Opinion87]

This has to be about as uninformed a debate on this subject as I have come across anywhere!

Fortunately, nobody here runs one of the many car companies that are investing billions into hydrogen cars and electrolysis plants.

Enlighten us, Ser Byre!

 

[Ian J]

I was chatting yesterday to an acquaintance who is heavily involved in the automotive industry.

He maintains that the unofficial - official line is that we will be 40% electric-enabled by 2030 - the obvious immediate stumbling block being charging infrastructure.

Bringing forward the date at which petrol and diesel cars will not be produced any longer to 2030 is madness as it's impossible to build a charging infrastructure in that short time.

 

[Clodbuster]

The seven owners I know all charge at home and/or at work. Have no idea if that is true of of what percentage of owners. Not much of an infrastructure needed there so it could be a red herring by opponents.

 

[bodgitt&scarperLTD]

The seven owners I know all charge at home and/or at work. Have no idea if that is true of of what percentage of owners. Not much of an infrastructure needed there so it could be a red herring by opponents.

Of course there is. Imagine the demands on the electricity grid if everyone did that rather than popped down the filling station for petrol. We are already having to install generators everywhere around the country for when the wind stops. With more fossil fuel stations due to be decommissioned and nuclear facing opposition and large costs then the future of the current cheap electricity network is far from certain.

 

[Ian J]

The seven owners I know all charge at home and/or at work. Have no idea if that is true of of what percentage of owners. Not much of an infrastructure needed there so it could be a red herring by opponents.

Somehow I doubt it. There are a huge number of people that live in flats or houses with no dedicated parking spaces including my friend who lives in a flat and works in a hospital so she won't be able to fill up with electricity anywhere privately

 

[Financial-Modeller]

Irrespective of propulsion, our government seems intent on killing off the car industry, and is successfully shaping policy to ensure that fewer people buy cars. From today's Times:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/affluent-young-leave-cars-behind-zkf58v5pw

In urban environments it is more costly and less enjoyable to own, park, insure, and drive a car, pushing consumers towards a combination of public transport, car sharing, and private hire to get around.

 

[Gordon - Commercial Finance]

Production of petrol and diesel cars will continue long after 2030, until there’s signs of a viable alternative that can be put to use in the police.

Electric vehicles don’t and probably never will suit the needs of the police.

 

[mattk]

Production of petrol and diesel cars will continue long after 2030, until there’s signs of a viable alternative that can be put to use in the police.

Electric vehicles don’t and probably never will suit the needs of the police.

On the contrary, I think the opposite. Large scale manufacturers will move away from ICE long before the legislative cut off, as demand for ICE vehicles will fall off a cliff as 2030 approaches.

There will likely be a few small-scale manufacturers still producing ICE vehicles to meet that dwindling demand, but I don't see why the police cannot use electric vehicles to pootle around town on their "patrols".

 

[Gordon - Commercial Finance]

On the contrary, I think the opposite. Large scale manufacturers will move away from ICE long before the legislative cut off, as demand for ICE vehicles will fall off a cliff as 2030 approaches.

There will likely be a few small-scale manufacturers still producing ICE vehicles to meet that dwindling demand, but I don't see why the police cannot use electric vehicles to pootle around town on their "patrols".

They do use electric vehicles to pootle around town occasionally, but think about traffic cars? They need to know that they can drive at 110 mph for a sustained period and as much as they might love sitting around eating takeaway food they can’t be sat for 45 minutes in a garden centre waiting for their car to charge, unable to respond to a call.

I spoke to a traffic cop friend of mine about this a length. Imagine all the bad guys who would get away because the chase car was showing 75 miles of range, but then it gets pushed a bit faster to catch up and suddenly at 110 mph the range is 11 miles....

 

[Ian J]

I spoke to a traffic cop friend of mine about this a length. Imagine all the bad guys who would get away because the chase car was showing 75 miles of range, but then it gets pushed a bit faster to catch up and suddenly at 110 mph the range is 11 miles....

They will have to have top of the range Teslas