Universal Credit for Self Employed

[MissBling]

Has anyone claimed for the universal credit I am looking for advice please?
Since lockdown I have had zero income with my business, my partner who lives with me has been furloughed from his job he is on a low income and now only receiving 80%.

I went on the Universal Credit short assessment calculator that Martin Lewis suggests but based on the information it came up as offering me just £20 a month which was council tax support.

Is this right? I found the questions all related around housing costs eg mortgage council tax etc Does it not consider all our outgoings such as food, petrol, insurance policies, credit card payments,general living costs etc

I thought the Universal Credit with the income floor removed was income support for the self employed, why is it only offering me £20 a month support when I gave no other income coming in? I am so annoyed about this I have never claimed in my life and now at a time that I need some support for my general living costs I am offered £20 a month when people on benefits get so much more support this is very unfair .... unless I am doing something wrong here? I am hoping it’s my error

any help or advice would be appreciated

Thankyou

 

[Darren_Ssc]

I am offered £20 a month when people on benefits get so much more support this is very unfair ....

Just go on benefits then and get 'so much more'?

 

[UKSBD]

I thought the Universal Credit with the income floor removed was income support for the self employed, why is it only offering me £20 a month support when I gave no other income coming in?

Because you have a partner

 

[MissBling]

Just go on benefits then and get 'so much more'?

Thanks for your supportive and useful advice NOT!! Appreciated

 

[Darren_Ssc]

Thanks for your supportive and useful advice NOT!! Appreciated

You are the one complaining about 'other people' getting more than you? Show a bit of humility and you might get some respect in return.

 

[MissBling]

You are the one complaining about 'other people' getting more than you? Show a bit of humility and you might get some respect in return.

I was merely using that as an example If you haven’t got anything sensible to say then please don’t bother commenting on this post ... this forum is meant for advice not for people just looking for argumentative debates !

 

[JEREMY HAWKE]

Are you not entitled to the Self Employed Boris Grant

I do feel for you though and I wont point out any negative points because with a name like Miss Bling I know how much you are suffering at this moment in time
You see I myself would never be seen dead in Primark and I really hope it does not happen to you

 

[Mr D]

The universal credit will be based on household income. That includes furloughed payment.
They do not need to know what you in particular spend on certain costs because it is irrelevant.
They factor that you will have bills into the payment. So perhaps if neither of you had income you would get £x - call it a hundred a week.
But because of other income you instead get say 20 a month.

How you pay and what you pay for is up to you. Millions survive on benefits do you know it can be done.

Your non essential bills - like credit cards - either claim on the insurance you have paid or else offer them a notional payment of 1 pound a month and ask them to freeze interest.
Same with all your other unsecured debts.
Get rid of non essential costs.

Benefits are not usually a high figure, you claim and if you get anything great. But not guaranteed to get anything.

 

[MissBling]

Are you not entitled to the Self Employed Boris Grant

Ha ha! .... I love Primarni
No unfortunately I’m not eligible for the SEISS due to trading profits for that period.

I do feel for you though and I wont point out any negative points because with a name like Miss Bling I know how much you are suffering at this moment in time
You see I myself would never be seen dead in Primark and I really hope it does not happen to you

 

[Darren_Ssc]

I was merely using that as an example If you haven’t got anything sensible to say then please don’t bother commenting on this post ... this forum is meant for advice not for people just looking for argumentative debates !

The 'sensible' answer to your question is to put your claim in and see what happens because nobody is going to be able to give you any kind of estimate better than what you already have.

Don't worry what other people are getting, that isn't going to pay your bills.

 

[alan1302]

I am offered £20 a month when people on benefits get so much more support this is very unfair

I think you are finding out now that people on benefits very rarely do get much money or support...you've not mentioned having any kids so any money you could get from the benefits system would be low anyway and as your partner is working you won't get much.

 

[Chris Ashdown]

You have not stated what your business is or why zero business, you could explain more and possibly get advice from a business forum that may help or alternatively there may be no solution

A pub at present has little choice but to remain shut, where as shops have other ways to get some sales online which may help

 

[Karimbo]

A victim of propaganda of "people on benefits live lavishly" on mainstreammedia.

Benefits are calculated to the penny and designed to be uncomfortable. Sure someone on benefits will have the rent and bills paid for, but it's calculated to the penny so that after you have paid your rent, council tax, utilities, etc. You'll be left with maybe £500-£600 a month to pay for food, clothing, internet, mobile, furniture, maintenance & upkeep of home, travel, haircuts, gym memberships.

It's designed to be uncomfortable and get you out to earn money, for every £1 you earn, they deduct £63p in benefits so it tapers off.

I would get a second opinion on your award, but most likely if you've entered everything correctly then it probably is correct.

And no, other people aren't getting more than you. Other people in your circumstance will get the same. (unless they are homeowners with mortgage - in which case they are ****ed).

 

[UKSBD]

And no, other people aren't getting more than you. Other people in your circumstance will get the same. (unless they are homeowners with mortgage - in which case they are ****ed).

Or if they have savings.

 

[Mr D]

A victim of propaganda of "people on benefits live lavishly" on mainstreammedia.

Benefits are calculated to the penny and designed to be uncomfortable. Sure someone on benefits will have the rent and bills paid for, but it's calculated to the penny so that after you have paid your rent, council tax, utilities, etc. You'll be left with maybe £500-£600 a month to pay for food, clothing, internet, mobile, furniture, maintenance & upkeep of home, travel, haircuts, gym memberships.

It's designed to be uncomfortable and get you out to earn money, for every £1 you earn, they deduct £63p in benefits so it tapers off.

I would get a second opinion on your award, but most likely if you've entered everything correctly then it probably is correct.

And no, other people aren't getting more than you. Other people in your circumstance will get the same. (unless they are homeowners with mortgage - in which case they are ****ed).

There are people who live well on benefits.
Large family, nice house etc.

What the media don't tend to show is the costs involved.

£500 to £600 a month to spend on all that? Some have much smaller sums left after essential bills go out.
Half that.

Yes, the marginal tax rate for working is huge - so means basic jobs can be worth less than the benefits overall for some people.

 

[Karimbo]

There are people who live well on benefits.
Large family, nice house etc.

What the media don't tend to show is the costs involved.

£500 to £600 a month to spend on all that? Some have much smaller sums left after essential bills go out.
Half that.

Yes, the marginal tax rate for working is huge - so means basic jobs can be worth less than the benefits overall for some people.

I really doubt that is the case. Don't forget, people on universal credit have to actively look for work, if they don't, they get sanctions. If they're jobless for too long, they end up having to go into the job centre for 35 hours a week to do job search on their computers. There's no space in the universal credit system where you can comfortably relax and claim benefits

 

[Mr D]

I really doubt that is the case. Don't forget, people on universal credit have to actively look for work, if they don't, they get sanctions. If they're jobless for too long, they end up having to go into the job centre for 35 hours a week to do job search on their computers. There's no space in the universal credit system where you can comfortably relax and claim benefits

Sorry which bit do you doubt?

Universal credit is also for far more than jobseekers. Think you may be remembering jobseekers allowance as a separate benefit?

 

[Karimbo]

I really doubt there are people who live well on benefits, Large family (child benefit capped to 2 or 3 kids, dont know how many), nice house - questionable?

Universal credit gets everyone who is fit to work to constantly apply to get a job. If they do not have the capacity to work, they get a very small benefit to live a meagre existence. If they do not have the qualifications to get a job, they get put into training - if you cannot do the training properly or cannot attend - you get benefits reduced. Everyone else is required to be in work or actively seek work. At first they will give you time to do your own job search, over time they will put more and more pressure on you - eventually job search becomes your full time job. At which point most people would rather work in any job than be job searching for 35 hours a week.

 

[Mr D]

I really doubt there are people who live well on benefits, Large family (child benefit capped to 2 or 3 kids, dont know how many), nice house - questionable?

Universal credit gets everyone who is fit to work to constantly apply to get a job. If they do not have the capacity to work, they get a very small benefit to live a meagre existence. If they do not have the qualifications to get a job, they get put into training - if you cannot do the training properly or cannot attend - you get benefits reduced. Everyone else is required to be in work or actively seek work. At first they will give you time to do your own job search, over time they will put more and more pressure on you - eventually job search becomes your full time job. At which point most people would rather work in any job than be job searching for 35 hours a week.

Think of how many bedrooms you would need for adults plus 2 kids of different sexes. Now add 6 more kids - same size house for next 20 years?
Have known several families that ended up in a larger house.

As for benefits - add one or two disabled into the mix....
62 pounds odd per person if unable to walk very much? That is in addition to other benefits.
Ever seen a household where both adults get that on top of other income? Nice bit of change...

 

[Karimbo]

Think of how many bedrooms you would need for adults plus 2 kids of different sexes. Now add 6 more kids - same size house for next 20 years?
Have known several families that ended up in a larger house.

As for benefits - add one or two disabled into the mix....
62 pounds odd per person if unable to walk very much? That is in addition to other benefits.
Ever seen a household where both adults get that on top of other income? Nice bit of change...

How many families have 8 kids? We're talking about fringes here.

Most women couldn't even conceive 8 times even if they wanted to.

You also have the problem of benefit cap, £23K in London, £20K outside London. Housing benefit is included in that amount as a benefit. So you have an 5 bedroom house with how much rent? shall we say £1800 in London, that £21.6K leaving £1.4K for everything else.

No family of 8 is going to survive a year on £1400. Not in a million years.

Going back to your point about having an easy life. I can asssure you that the father of these 8 children is going to have a very stressful life. He'll need to work his arse off to feed 10 mouths. The welfare state will only provide money to cover the rent a maybe council tax.

 

[bodgitt&scarperLTD]

Where are you finding five beds in London for £1800 a month??

 

[swankypants69]

It’s an interesting thing benefits

I am self employed, as is my wife, both in retail

If we are lucky this year I will break even, she will definitely trade at a loss

The benefits system is alien to us as between we have never “signed on” or ever received any “benefits” as such

We won’t go bust or lose our home, but only really due to overdrafts and bounce back loans

Should we be looking to claim “benefits”? There’s no shame in it, it’s just not something we have ever done before

How also do you prove that you will be operating at a loss when really you only declare your profits at the end of your trading year as such?

 

[Newchodge]

To answer the original point, state benefits are paid to households, not people. Your household has an income which will be taken into account when assessing your entitlement.

The benefit system has no interest in what you spend, except for housing costs and council tax. Everything else is calculated using a formula that just about allows you enough money to pay your utility bills, provided you don't use your gas and electricity at a rate that will keep your house warm and lit and your food cooked - you need to choose between those, plus a pittance that will cover very basic foods, the balance acquired through charity.

The benefits system has no interest whatsoever in your credit card bills, insurance policies, costs relating to pets or travel. Someone on benefits can walk to wherever they need to go and cannot afford the other things.

 

[Mr D]

How many families have 8 kids? We're talking about fringes here.

Most women couldn't even conceive 8 times even if they wanted to.

You also have the problem of benefit cap, £23K in London, £20K outside London. Housing benefit is included in that amount as a benefit. So you have an 5 bedroom house with how much rent? shall we say £1800 in London, that £21.6K leaving £1.4K for everything else.

No family of 8 is going to survive a year on £1400. Not in a million years.

Going back to your point about having an easy life. I can asssure you that the father of these 8 children is going to have a very stressful life. He'll need to work his arse off to feed 10 mouths. The welfare state will only provide money to cover the rent a maybe council tax.

Sorry thought we were talking about benefits.

In particular universal credit.

 

[Mr D]

It’s an interesting thing benefits

I am self employed, as is my wife, both in retail

If we are lucky this year I will break even, she will definitely trade at a loss

The benefits system is alien to us as between we have never “signed on” or ever received any “benefits” as such

We won’t go bust or lose our home, but only really due to overdrafts and bounce back loans

Should we be looking to claim “benefits”? There’s no shame in it, it’s just not something we have ever done before

How also do you prove that you will be operating at a loss when really you only declare your profits at the end of your trading year as such?

Universal credit asks for your income between particular dates. So they could ask for April income at this point in time, next week ask for May income.

Normally they run with minimum income floor - if you earn less than minimum wage they treat you as though earning minimum wage for the hours you declare you work.
This kicks in for newly self employed at the 12 month mark of being self employed - know many people starting off self employment with no financial backing whose net profit is say 17 grand a year at 12 months point?

 

[swankypants69]

Universal credit asks for your income between particular dates. So they could ask for April income at this point in time, next week ask for May income.

Normally they run with minimum income floor - if you earn less than minimum wage they treat you as though earning minimum wage for the hours you declare you work.
This kicks in for newly self employed at the 12 month mark of being self employed - know many people starting off self employment with no financial backing whose net profit is say 17 grand a year at 12 months point?

This is what I kind of find difficult really

I only truly know what I have made when I do my accounts at the end of the year

I forecast at this point in time that my wife’s income will be zero or perhaps even a 5k loss

I might break even, or possibly make 5-10k overall

Am in no way looking to defraud the system, have worked employed or self employed since the age of 14, never claimed on received working tax credits or JSA or anything like that in my life, but I kind of feel at the moment that if I’m entitled to it, then really we should claim whatever we can

Our businesses are seasonally, wifes will have lost 4 months completely out of a 6 month season, staff are furloughed, but all other costs still needing to be made

My business is trading at about 40% down in terms of turnover, hoping that this will pick up a little for the Summer, but with social distancing etc it will be very hard to generate any volume. Again costs have been reasonably similar as we have had to work harder just to trade up to that level of turnover

Like I say, we WONT go bust or lose our home, but that is due to overdrafts and loans, which aren’t free money

So is it acceptable to claim on this forecast, then if we do do better we can submit what we actually made and pay back what was erroneously claimed?

 

[Mr D]

You should be providing what they ask for - if that's turnover and costs for May then tahts what you provide.
Will be nothing like your end of year. Yet its the method they chose for variable income that may not be fully known for over a year after someone starts.

They can ask for proof.

 

[Karimbo]

Where are you finding five beds in London for £1800 a month??

It can be found, out in the sticks, zone 4,5

Sorry thought we were talking about benefits.

In particular universal credit.

Yes we are and benefit cap applies to universal credit.

You purported that someone can pop out babies and every child they have they are quids in. That is not the case, when they have 8 children, they are well and truly *****d because they will have a maximum benefit of £23K, majority will go towards rent.

 

[Mr D]

It can be found, out in the sticks, zone 4,5



Yes we are and benefit cap applies to universal credit.

You purported that someone can pop out babies and every child they have they are quids in. That is not the case, when they have 8 children, they are well and truly *****d because they will have a maximum benefit of £23K, majority will go towards rent.

Depends where the rent is.
My sister with 3 kids was renting a place on a nice street in a town for £550 a month. That's £6600 a year.
Her area is more expensive than where I live - similar sized house here is 500. There's some for lower.
Even a 5 bed house can be had for less than a grand a month.

 

[Karimbo]

Depends where the rent is.
My sister with 3 kids was renting a place on a nice street in a town for £550 a month. That's £6600 a year.
Her area is more expensive than where I live - similar sized house here is 500. There's some for lower.
Even a 5 bed house can be had for less than a grand a month.

Ok you're talking about outside of London where the benefit cap is £20K. Do you mind posting a link from zoopla or rightmove for said properties?

 

[Mr D]

Ok you're talking about outside of London where the benefit cap is £20K. Do you mind posting a link from zoopla or rightmove for said properties?

https://www.zoopla.co.uk/to-rent/ho...ts_sort=newest_listings&search_source=to-rent

Lots of other towns similar.

5 bed?
https://www.zoopla.co.uk/to-rent/pr...ts_sort=newest_listings&search_source=to-rent

 

[Karimbo]

5 bed?
https://www.zoopla.co.uk/to-rent/pr...ts_sort=newest_listings&search_source=to-rent

There is literally 1 property in the whole country that is a 5 bed which fits your <£1K bracket.
Which is somewhere remote in Scotland. Literally 1 property. There rest of the search results are rooms is properties.

There are properties slightly above that are £1250. But for remote places like East Refrenwshire, the local housing allowance and the benefits system will contribute a maximum of £1005 towards the rent. The claimant (if the cheapest place they can find is £1250, will need to make the shortfall themselves).

Now suppose some does decide to game the system, and move from Sussex (where their family and friends are, and move all the way to East Renfrewshire.

The benefit cap is £20K there, so they'll receive £1666 in benefits (max) pcm

Rent £995
Council tax £100
Energy use: £200*
total: £1295

*I'm being generous here, I've had £600+ quarterly bills and it's just me, my wife and our toddler. I'm willing to bet a 5 bedroom house in freezing scotland with 10 heads will cost a heck of a lot more.

That leaves £371, So you have £37 per month to clothe and feed 10 people.

it's just not possible, this idea that people can live off benefits and not work is impossible. That family of 10, the parents will need to work, the benefits will just about give them a roof over their heads.

There is no way it's economically advatageous to have 8 kids and rely on the state, the whole system is designed that it encourages you to have 2 children and when you have more it becomes harder and harder.

 

[Mr D]

There is literally 1 property in the whole country that is a 5 bed which fits your <£1K bracket.
Which is somewhere remote in Scotland. Literally 1 property. There rest of the search results are rooms is properties.

There are properties slightly above that are £1250. But for remote places like East Refrenwshire, the local housing allowance and the benefits system will contribute a maximum of £1005 towards the rent. The claimant (if the cheapest place they can find is £1250, will need to make the shortfall themselves).

Now suppose some does decide to game the system, and move from Sussex (where their family and friends are, and move all the way to East Renfrewshire.

The benefit cap is £20K there, so they'll receive £1666 in benefits (max) pcm

Rent £995
Council tax £100
Energy use: £200*
total: £1295

*I'm being generous here, I've had £600+ quarterly bills and it's just me, my wife and our toddler. I'm willing to bet a 5 bedroom house in freezing scotland with 10 heads will cost a heck of a lot more.

That leaves £371, So you have £37 per month to clothe and feed 10 people.

it's just not possible, this idea that people can live off benefits and not work is impossible. That family of 10, the parents will need to work, the benefits will just about give them a roof over their heads.

There is no way it's economically advatageous to have 8 kids and rely on the state, the whole system is designed that it encourages you to have 2 children and when you have more it becomes harder and harder.

I know of several - but of course the properties already rented out won't show up as available to rent and usually limits to how much a landlord can increase rent by.

You say 1 property nationwide? Lets check that claim.
Oh and not remote at all.

Oh look very easy to find multiple places 5+ bedrooms and under £1k. Perhaps your search was not very good.
The only place I looked that didn't have any was Bristol.

https://www.zoopla.co.uk/to-rent/pr...ts_sort=newest_listings&search_source=to-rent

https://www.zoopla.co.uk/to-rent/pr...ts_sort=newest_listings&search_source=to-rent

https://www.zoopla.co.uk/to-rent/pr...lts_sort=newest_listings&search_source=refine

https://www.zoopla.co.uk/to-rent/pr...lts_sort=newest_listings&search_source=refine

 

[Karimbo]

https://www.zoopla.co.uk/to-rent/property/birmingham/?beds_min=5&price_frequency=per_month&price_max=1000&q=Birmingham, West Midlands&results_sort=newest_listings&search_source=to-rent

https://www.zoopla.co.uk/to-rent/pr...ts_sort=newest_listings&search_source=to-rent

https://www.zoopla.co.uk/to-rent/pr...lts_sort=newest_listings&search_source=refine

https://www.zoopla.co.uk/to-rent/pr...lts_sort=newest_listings&search_source=refine

Ok I just clicked on the link you sent, I assumed these were all you can find.

perhaps you should read the ads or just send me link to the ads themselves, instead of search pages, 95% of the results there are a ROOM to rent in a 5+ bed house. Read the ads.

This is what you've been doing, you just have a theory and not even bothered to read anything up, not even checking the links you're sending me. I don't think you're even reading the numbers I'm researching and giving you.

Did you even understand the point about the benefit cap?

There are 2 properties on there that have £900 rent, so a bit cheaper, ok, but what's an extra £100 a month between 10 people?

That still leaves you in severe poverty, and you're not going to have an easy confortable existence on those numbers.

Please run the numbers and tell me how you can have a comfortable existence on £47 per month per person.

But I concede there are properties you can have for £1K. Whether the landlord will want 10 people living in there, is another issue. Someone on universal credit, no job, 8 kids. I know what the landlord is going to say.

I think, realistically what would happen is the council will need to take them, they won't have a 5 bed house so they will put the 10 person family into a temporary accomodation with rents far higher than market rate. Where privately the house rents for £1K, the temporary housing landlord will want £1400 from the council.

 

[alan1302]

I know of several - but of course the properties already rented out won't show up as available to rent and usually limits to how much a landlord can increase rent by.

You say 1 property nationwide? Lets check that claim.
Oh and not remote at all.

Oh look very easy to find multiple places 5+ bedrooms and under £1k. Perhaps your search was not very good.
The only place I looked that didn't have any was Bristol.

https://www.zoopla.co.uk/to-rent/property/birmingham/?beds_min=5&price_frequency=per_month&price_max=1000&q=Birmingham, West Midlands&results_sort=newest_listings&search_source=to-rent

https://www.zoopla.co.uk/to-rent/pr...ts_sort=newest_listings&search_source=to-rent

https://www.zoopla.co.uk/to-rent/pr...lts_sort=newest_listings&search_source=refine

https://www.zoopla.co.uk/to-rent/pr...lts_sort=newest_listings&search_source=refine

All those links seem to show shared accommodations - there was 1 5 bed bungalow.

 

[Mr D]

Ok I just clicked on the link you sent, I assumed these were all you can find.

perhaps you should read the ads or just send me link to the ads themselves, instead of search pages, 95% of the results there are a ROOM to rent in a 5+ bed house. Read the ads. There are a few properties that you can rent for £900, so a bit cheaper, ok, but what's an extra £100 a month between 10 people?

That still leaves you in severe poverty, and you're not going to have an easy confortable existence on those numbers.

Those links were all I bothered to find in 45 seconds, including Bristol which I checked.

Yes there are a bunch of houseshares - what do you expect for 5 bed properties? And some normal renting as you agree.

You appear to have a rather warped view of benefits. People - to your surprise I'm sure - do manage to live on them.
Millions do.

Perhaps you should be telling them they cannot. Quick, before they starve to death or have to use a foodbank twice a year for 6 days food.

 

[Karimbo]

You appear to have a rather warped view of benefits. People - to your surprise I'm sure - do manage to live on them.
Millions do.

I'm done researching and crunching the numbers, the onus is on you, prove it.

 

[alan1302]

Those links were all I bothered to find in 45 seconds, including Bristol which I checked.

Yes there are a bunch of houseshares - what do you expect for 5 bed properties? And some normal renting as you agree.

You appear to have a rather warped view of benefits. People - to your surprise I'm sure - do manage to live on them.
Millions do.

Perhaps you should be telling them they cannot. Quick, before they starve to death or have to use a foodbank twice a year for 6 days food.

You were making out 5 bedroom properties are easy to find to rent - you proved yourself that they are not. A family on benefits does not want a houseshare.

Don't think anyone has said people don't live on benefits - they were saying it's not easy living on benefits and it is not like living well - you disagreed about that.

 

[Mr D]

I'm done researching and crunching the numbers, the onus is on you, prove it.

Gladly.

UK government information - https://assets.publishing.service.g...enefits-statistical-summary-february-2019.pdf

 

[alan1302]

Gladly.

UK government information - https://assets.publishing.service.g...enefits-statistical-summary-february-2019.pdf

How does that prove that these people are living it up on benefits?