“Change of mind” Returns

[OMGVape]

I’m all for customers being able to return goods bought online within a given time period “for any reason” but how can a business protect itself from items being returned which are rendered unsellable after just one time usage?
eg. Customer buys a BBQ, grills a few bangers, then wants to return it a few days later for simply changing his/her/it’s mind ?

 

[Lee Oakley]

I’m all for customers being able to return goods bought online within a given time period “for any reason” but how can a business protect itself from items being returned which are rendered unsellable after just one time usage?
eg. Customer buys a BBQ, grills a few bangers, then wants to return it a few days later for simply changing his/her/it’s mind ?

I guess thats what a well crafted returns policy would prevent.

If a product is defective fair enough and whilst big retailers will allow most items to be returned the common language you see in most returns policies is "exchange or refund any item returned in a saleable condition"
"exchange or refund any unused/unworn/unopened item returned in a saleable condition"

Given the product in your user name (if thats what you really want to talk about) it would be fairly standard to exclude certain products from your returns policy on the grounds of "health and hygiene" with the exception of a fault.

 

[Mr D]

Well could avoid the returns by avoiding distance selling.

If you tried it with BBQ you would be unable to refuse return. Comes down to customer ability to try something then return.

 

[Lucan Unlordly]

A mate of mine worked for a well known pressure washer manufacturer. The DIY chains with no quibble returns policies would see hundreds of single use machines brought back following Easter weekend bank holiday offer. 'Bought at a good price, washed the patio, tried it on the car and thought....lot of money sitting there and won't need to use it again for months so it's going back'.

 

[BEB_Kerry]

What do your terms say? If the goods have been used once then they cannot use their right to a cooling off period.

 

[Mr D]

What do your terms say? If the goods have been used once then they cannot use their right to a cooling off period.

That's in the consumer rights act 2015?

 

[BEB_Kerry]

That's in the consumer rights act 2015?

Customers have a right to return faulty goods of course.

However the 14 day cooling off period 'change of mind' is simply that.

Taken from which? website

"You don't have to return the item in its original packaging, but you do need to make sure it’s packaged in a way that means it doesn’t get damaged. Sellers can ask you to pay if something gets damaged because it wasn’t packaged properly. The seller can also ask you to pay (or reduce your refund) if you’ve reduced the value of the item, eg if you wore shoes outside and scuffed the soles - but they can only do this if it’s in the terms and conditions."

I suspect the OP is selling electronic cigarettes and vape pens, by using them once and filling the tanks up with liquid would depreciate the value of goods. You could argue there is little chance of re-selling. H&S etc too. Liquids are sealed so they definitely would need to be kept sealed to be able to have a right under 'change of mind' like CDs etc.

Terms & Conditions should state

"you will be entitled to a full refund on any unopened and unused items purchased within this time period" and that is legal

 

[Mr D]

Customers have a right to return faulty goods of course.

However the 14 day cooling off period 'change of mind' is simply that.

Taken from which? website

"You don't have to return the item in its original packaging, but you do need to make sure it’s packaged in a way that means it doesn’t get damaged. Sellers can ask you to pay if something gets damaged because it wasn’t packaged properly. The seller can also ask you to pay (or reduce your refund) if you’ve reduced the value of the item, eg if you wore shoes outside and scuffed the soles - but they can only do this if it’s in the terms and conditions."

I suspect the OP is selling electronic cigarettes and vape pens, by using them once and filling the tanks up with liquid would depreciate the value of goods. You could argue there is little chance of re-selling. H&S etc too. Liquids are sealed so they definitely would need to be kept sealed to be able to have a right under 'change of mind' like CDs etc.

Terms & Conditions should state

"you will be entitled to a full refund on any unopened and unused items purchased within this time period" and that is legal

So would still have the cooling off period. Does the act refer to unopened and unused?

 

[OMGVape]

I don’t sell vaping stuff

 

[kulture]

It would be sensible to read the regulations that apply http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2013/3134/regulation/34/made

They say it all.

 

[Alan]

"
(12) For the purposes of paragraph (9) handling is beyond what is necessary to establish the nature, characteristics and functioning of the goods if, in particular, it goes beyond the sort of handling that might reasonably be allowed in a shop.

"

Opening vape liquid and taking a puff - would that be allowed in a shop?

Firing up a BBQ and cooking a few sausages - would that be allowed in ( or just outside ) a shop?

Using a jet wash to clean your car - would that be allowed in ( or just outside ) a shop ? It would be great wouldn't it, pop in the Halfords - can I just test you jet washer out side - and your wash and wax - clean your car - and then say nah didn't like it.

 

[BEB_Kerry]

So would still have the cooling off period. Does the act refer to unopened and unused?

The consumer contracts (information, cancellation and additional charges) regulations state

34
(9) If (in the case of a sales contract) the value of the goods is diminished by any amount as a result of handling of the goods by the consumer beyond what is necessary to establish the nature, characteristics and functioning of the goods, the trader may recover that amount from the consumer, up to the contract price.

 

[Mr D]

The consumer contracts (information, cancellation and additional charges) regulations state

34
(9) If (in the case of a sales contract) the value of the goods is diminished by any amount as a result of handling of the goods by the consumer beyond what is necessary to establish the nature, characteristics and functioning of the goods, the trader may recover that amount from the consumer, up to the contract price.

So yes the buyer can return the goods. You can wear shoes. You can try a joystick. You can open a scissors or knife packet (you want to try putting one of them back together?).

 

[BEB_Kerry]

So yes the buyer can return the goods. You can wear shoes. You can try a joystick. You can open a scissors or knife packet (you want to try putting one of them back together?).

If you opened scissors and said you just changed your mind there is no legal obligation to accept return especially for a full refund.

The right to change you mind does not give consumers the right to use those goods to a point of devaluing the item and making them unsellable, otherwise the seller can reduce the value of the refund or not refund at all. Do not handle the item any more than you would handle an item you were considering buying in a shop.

 

[Mr D]

If you opened scissors and said you just changed your mind there is no legal obligation to accept return especially for a full refund.

The right to change you mind does not give consumers the right to use those goods to a point of devaluing the item and making them unsellable, otherwise the seller can reduce the value of the refund or not refund at all. Do not handle the item any more than you would handle an item you were considering buying in a shop.

You may be able to tell if you can use a pair of scissors or a knife by looking. Some of us have to try holding. Like we would in a shop.
Have purchased scissors where I cannot use them, simply too tight a fit. And returned for a refund.

Has anyone suggested devaluing items?

What is your method of opening sealed packets / boxes in order to examine and try the contents?

 

[BEB_Kerry]

You may be able to tell if you can use a pair of scissors or a knife by looking. Some of us have to try holding. Like we would in a shop.
Have purchased scissors where I cannot use them, simply too tight a fit. And returned for a refund.

Has anyone suggested devaluing items?

What is your method of opening sealed packets / boxes in order to examine and try the contents?

In all fairness it depends on the OP goods. I assumed vape products which he has now stated that isn’t the case in regards to my comment of being unused.

I still think you would struggle to buy scissors online , for it to be in a packet, opened and they would refund. It also completely depends on the company, some bigger companies would honour this as it’s just a few pence to them. Tesco would do it, although have absolutely no obligation to do so.

The law is suggesting the devalue of items. However what you’re suggesting would be a killer to small businesses and you will often find small businesses will stick to the absolute minimum requirements by law.

Law is often about interpretation, and as a small business owner if you can proove disminished value you are not obliged to give full refund.

 

[Mr D]

In all fairness it depends on the OP goods. I assumed vape products which he has now stated that isn’t the case in regards to my comment of being unused.

I still think you would struggle to buy scissors online , for it to be in a packet, opened and they would refund. It also completely depends on the company, some bigger companies would honour this as it’s just a few pence to them. Tesco would do it, although have absolutely no obligation to do so.

The law is suggesting the devalue of items. However what you’re suggesting would be a killer to small businesses and you will often find small businesses will stick to the absolute minimum requirements by law.

Law is often about interpretation, and as a small business owner if you can proove disminished value you are not obliged to give full refund.

I may indeed struggle to buy scissors online, open packet then return.
Having only done it several times in the past dozen years or so.

You should try it next time you need scissors if your hands do not fit all scissors.

The law appears pretty clear to me. Glad that the retailers I used followed it.

 

[BEB_Kerry]

I may indeed struggle to buy scissors online, open packet then return.
Having only done it several times in the past dozen years or so.

You should try it next time you need scissors if your hands do not fit all scissors.

The law appears pretty clear to me. Glad that the retailers I used followed it.

Gosh how many times do you buy scissors
I am pleased you have found scissors eventually to suit your hands.
Sending all those pairs back must be annoying.

However it’s a different law ‘not fit for purpose’ maybe as they do not suit you... not just ‘I have changed my mind’

Have a good evening

 

[NickGrogan]

What do your terms say? If the goods have been used once then they cannot use their right to a cooling off period.

"Currently studying a Masters in Business Law"

Most of the advice you've given is legally and factually wrong.

Terms & Conditions should state

"you will be entitled to a full refund on any unopened and unused items purchased within this time period" and that is legal

This would be a breach of the The Consumer Contracts regulations and mean that customers would be able to return products for longer than 14 days, and leave you liable to prosecution.

 

[BEB_Kerry]

"Currently studying a Masters in Business Law"

Most of the advice you've given is legally and factually wrong.



This would be a breach of the The Consumer Contracts regulations and mean that customers would be able to return products for longer than 14 days, and leave you liable to prosecution.

I got a merit in my consumer law module maybe it’s the tutors fault.

This was based on putting an e-cigarette together and filling it up with e-liquid.
Not all goods of course.

 

[Mr D]

Gosh how many times do you buy scissors
I am pleased you have found scissors eventually to suit your hands.
Sending all those pairs back must be annoying.

However it’s a different law ‘not fit for purpose’ maybe as they do not suit you... not just ‘I have changed my mind’

Have a good evening

I buy as many scissors as needed. Sewing scissors not ideal for kitchen use, kitchen scissors not great for snipping tapestry threads. Do you cut paper? Different scissors than sewing ones? How about scissors for harvesting leaves - use the same sewing scissors?

And the scissors were fit for purpose, just not what I find comfortable in my hand.

Males and females can have considerable differences in hand sizes, a pair of scissors my 16 year old niece uses I would find very hard to use what with hands considerably bigger than hers.

The problem manufacturers create with packaging that's effectively destroyed by the opening is not my problem.

No more annoying sending scissors back than shirts, gloves, socks, compression wraps, books, cameras, ornaments and bedding.
Package and take to post office or arrange collection. Often enough have couriers collecting business stuff going to customers and we are at the post office daily.

 

[BEB_Kerry]

I buy as many scissors as needed. Sewing scissors not ideal for kitchen use, kitchen scissors not great for snipping tapestry threads. Do you cut paper? Different scissors than sewing ones? How about scissors for harvesting leaves - use the same sewing scissors?

And the scissors were fit for purpose, just not what I find comfortable in my hand.

Males and females can have considerable differences in hand sizes, a pair of scissors my 16 year old niece uses I would find very hard to use what with hands considerably bigger than hers.

The problem manufacturers create with packaging that's effectively destroyed by the opening is not my problem.

No more annoying sending scissors back than shirts, gloves, socks, compression wraps, books, cameras, ornaments and bedding.
Package and take to post office or arrange collection. Often enough have couriers collecting business stuff going to customers and we are at the post office daily.

I understand, however you are still not exercising your right of change of mind more that they are not suitable for you.

PC World and Dunelm Both state in the T&Cs unopened and still packaged under ‘cooling off period’

As I’ve mentioned a couple of times it completely depends on the goods. Even Argos clearly state they reserve the right to not honour the full refund if excessive handling.

I rarely buy scissors so I cannot relate but as I have said I am glad you found ones suitable for you.

 

[Mr D]

I understand, however you are still not exercising your right of change of mind more that they are not suitable for you.

PC World and Dunelm Both state in the T&Cs unopened and still packaged under ‘cooling off period’

As I’ve mentioned a couple of times it completely depends on the goods. Even Argos clearly state they reserve the right to not honour the full refund if excessive handling.

I rarely buy scissors so I cannot relate but as I have said I am glad you found ones suitable for you.

Ah excessive handling.
Yes that can be pretty bad. Hence as quoted earlier about withholding part.

Doesn't remove right to return.

Unopened and still packaged - for online sales? PC world? That's a good one.
In store you can try - at home you cannot without opening. Do PC world terms override the law?
If I was to buy a laptop from PC world online I'd be unable to return it once the box is opened?

 

[NickGrogan]

I got a merit in my consumer law module maybe it’s the tutors fault.

This was based on putting an e-cigarette together and filling it up with e-liquid.
Not all goods of course.

The OP said

I don’t sell vaping stuff

You might want to head over to this post and have a read

The original Distance selling regulations did not have any limits on what a consumer did with the goods in the 7 days they had in which to cancel the contract. The new consumer contract regulations DO have limits as I stated above. They are not greatly worded but do offer retailers the chance to argue that the consumer has handled the goods beyond what is necessary and thus can reduce the refund. So BOTH arguments made in this thread are correct in some ways.

I suspect that retailers like John Lewis are well aware of the statutory obligations and limitations AND ambiguities and have taken the commercial decision to give refunds in more cases than they strictly need to.

I suggest that people stop relying on what is said on retailers' sites and indeed on consumer advice sites and just look at the actual law as it is written. Unlike many regulations these are understandable and should be used in preference to any and all "interpretations".

So read and enjoy http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2013/3134/contents/made

It is also useful to read the whole of a section, as if I had bothered I would have noticed 34 (12) which reads "For the purposes of paragraph (9) handling is beyond what is necessary to establish the nature, characteristics and functioning of the goods if, in particular, it goes beyond the sort of handling that might reasonably be allowed in a shop" Which almost blows a hole in my argument, but for a joystick, a savvy customer could still argue that it is REASONABLE to try out the handling of a joystick in a shop and many reputable games shops could have demonstration models on hand. If this is the case then the argument that taking it out of its packaging could still be reasonable.

It is also worth noting 34 (11) "Paragraph (9) does not apply if the trader has failed to provide the consumer with the information on the right to cancel required by paragraph (l) of Schedule 2, in accordance with Part 2. " which means that if the retailer has not spelt out these rights in the way proscribed then all bets are off and the consumer can do whatever they want.

And perhaps point your tutor at the posts, perhaps they can add something.

 

[DontAsk]

You may be able to tell if you can use a pair of scissors or a knife by looking. Some of us have to try holding. Like we would in a shop.

How many shops would be happy for you to open (possibly multiple) blister packs to try them all?

Have purchased scissors where I cannot use them, simply too tight a fit. And returned for a refund.

Was the return under your legal rights, or the shop's own returns policy. It makes a difference.

What is your method of opening sealed packets / boxes in order to examine and try the contents?

Very often you can't.

 

[Mr D]

How many shops would be happy for you to open (possibly multiple) blister packs to try them all?



Was the return under your legal rights, or the shop's own returns policy. It makes a difference.


Very often you can't.

Strangely often enough shops have one or more pairs open for customers to handle.
The manufacturers who put their products in packaging that must effectively be destroyed to access the item present a few problems.

Return under my legal rights.

As for opening packs - presumably you do not then keep (if ordered online) anything that requires you to open the pack? Simply sending it back unopened?

 

[kulture]

As for opening packs - presumably you do not then keep (if ordered online) anything that requires you to open the pack? Simply sending it back unopened?

This is a silly straw man argument.

Most shops do not let you open sealed packs in order to inspect the contents. I suspect that if you went to, say, Tesco, and looked for scissors then I suspect that they do not have demonstration models available.

Anyway we are drifting away. the OP question is "how can a business protect itself from items being returned which are rendered unsellable after just one time usage?"

The answer is read the legislation. Put the required words in your terms and conditions. Apply a reasonable withholding of refund when you get such a return. Expect to be challenged by a few who have a different idea of what is reasonable.

 

[OMGVape]

I’ll put that legislation on my to-do list Kulture.
Dare I ask, who pays for return postage ?

Use this example of a tricky situation.

Customer buys a 30ft long self build greenhouse. They spend a few days building it then decide they don’t want it anymore.
Who pays for the return ?

ps. I don’t sell greenhouse or e-cigs ;-)

 

[Mr D]

This is a silly straw man argument.

Most shops do not let you open sealed packs in order to inspect the contents. I suspect that if you went to, say, Tesco, and looked for scissors then I suspect that they do not have demonstration models available.

Anyway we are drifting away. the OP question is "how can a business protect itself from items being returned which are rendered unsellable after just one time usage?"

The answer is read the legislation. Put the required words in your terms and conditions. Apply a reasonable withholding of refund when you get such a return. Expect to be challenged by a few who have a different idea of what is reasonable.

Agree it was a silly straw man argument. It was what the idea it was in response to called for.

Tesco may not, local habadashery does. A kitchen shop used to as well.
Catering to their customers I believe they would call it. Good business ploy to gain sales.

Yes indeed read the legislation. Particularly the rights of the buyers.

 

[alan1302]

Also if Tesco don't let you try the scissors then you simply don't buy them.

 

[kulture]

I’ll put that legislation on my to-do list Kulture.
Dare I ask, who pays for return postage ?

Use this example of a tricky situation.

Customer buys a 30ft long self build greenhouse. They spend a few days building it then decide they don’t want it anymore.
Who pays for the return ?

ps. I don’t sell greenhouse or e-cigs ;-)

The customer has to pay the return postage UNLESS you forget to put this condition in your terms and conditions, and you have to ensure that you have communicated these terms to the customer. (or at the very least they tick a box saying that they have read these terms)