PRS! PPL! Arg! Need some help please!

Victry77

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Jun 1, 2013
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Hi, just came across these forums & I do apologise as I've searched this topic and know it's been covered but I wondered if anyone could help me with any updated information for my own situation.

I'm starting up a once-a-week adult dance class in a local community building (not a dance school). It's not professional dance training in any way, it's simply as a hobby. Even for myself, I'm not really classing this as a business and it's not really for profit-making. However, I AM charging for the class but the money will be spent on room hire and props (which are expensive).

I have registered with the tax to make sure everything is above board (though the chance I will ever pay an tax on it are virtually nil) and I've sorted out public liability insurance. However, I have only just realised that I have completey over-looked music licensing!

I've google info but I just wanted to make sure I had all the correct information. Do I need PRS, PPL or both? If anyone was willing to help me out that would be brilliant as I'm not entirely sure what I'm doing with this and my class starts in 2wks. Is it possible for me to get into trouble if I don't have one right away?

Any help much appreciated.
 
you need both - phone them both up and they will ask you some questions and then tell you how much you need to pay.

If you do not do that and they find out you have not I think they can fine you or charge an amount for what they think you owe them.

It doesn't take long, I called them both for my shop and was able to play music the day I called and arranged it with them.
 
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smo

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you need both - phone them both up and they will ask you some questions and then tell you how much you need to pay.

If you do not do that and they find out you have not I think they can fine you or charge an amount for what they think you owe them.

It doesn't take long, I called them both for my shop and was able to play music the day I called and arranged it with them.


They cant fine you, and they will only invoice which as you have no contract with them is totally unenforcable.
 
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Victry77

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Thanks for the info emmylou :)

atmosbob ~ good thought. I'll pop them an emal to check on this.

They cant fine you, and they will only invoice which as you have no contract with them is totally unenforcable.

Thanks, but this is were I get confused because does this mean that having a license isn't absolutely essential?

Also, how do they find out you even exist? My class will run once-a-week for an hour in the local community. I have a FB page to advertise, but how do they root you out? I'm just curious about that.
 
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superdooper500

They cant fine you, and they will only invoice which as you have no contract with them is totally unenforcable.

That's not strictly true. It is enforceable, and they will take you to court over it. They're basically collecting copyright royalties, and it is all legitimately done under copyright law. Their tactics however do leave much to be desired sometimes I do agree.

My advice would honestly be to speak to them, tell them your circumstances and then agree on the smallest possible license fee you can. OR use royalty free music for your dance classes.

My understanding is that PRS and PPL are joining forces in the future to make all this easier to understand.
 
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superdooper500

They very very rarely take anyone to court because they rarely win.

They find you by chance, if they call say you dont play any music that needs royalties and off they toddle again. Simples!

I'll have to agree to disagree on that I'm afraid :)

OP: you definitely have only three choices:

1) find out if your proposed venue has relevant licenses, and if possible use them.
2) Use Royalty Free music.
3) Call PRS/PPL and let them know your plans and negotiate a relevant license.

As much as I know some people hate PRS/PPL and their tactics, you can no more avoid them long term than you can fire regulations, public liability insurance or any other requirement of running a business. Yes you MAY be able to dodge them for a little while, but ultimately if you're playing music, you've got to pay up I'm afraid.
 
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Victry77

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Hi, thanks all so much for the advice.

First, I'll ask the community hall if they have the licenses, if not, I'll ring both PRS & PPL and get it sorted.

There's absolutely no way that I can use royalty free music without it being the worse dance class ever! I have to use quite specific music and I already have routines to certain songs sorted. Also, I will be letting attendees know what songs are coming up via my Facebook page, so essentially I will be making it public what songs I'm using.

Just another quick question, is one more important than the other, i.e, PRS or PPL. Would it be necessary to get a license sorted with one first before the other?
 
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alasdair1982

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Aug 7, 2012
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Listening to a representative from PRS on bbc 3counties radio last month, they were discussing the rising costs to businesses and the cost of a prs license..

The presenter asked the question what happens to a business that fails to pay the license fee?
Her response was their is nothing they can do to make a business pay as it is a voluntary scheme and all prs would do it try to work with them to get some payment.

And as smo said the fee is completely un enforceable.
 
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paulears

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I really have no idea where the information people give out comes from. PRS (and PPL) do indeed take action and recover what people have avoided. Please - let's not go off on one again, everyone has their own view on what should be paid for and what should not - but ALL the recognised dance associations provide their members with advice on music licensing, and as the OP said, they have to play the music people need to listen to.

The piece on it being voluntary is just how the facts are presented. It is NOT a criminal offence, so the law does not say you MUST pay. It does however, allow the rights holder (or their representative - as in PRS & PPL) to recover the amount that should have been paid, and now that the county court system is available on-line, it's a simple job to take people to court. In most cases, PPL and PRS attempt to negotiate and not do this, but resy assured that if the amount in question is high enough, they will. They do do deals where people have mistakenly messed up. I know a theatre that was bought by a private family firm. They took out a PRS license, got the stickers and were happy for ten years until one day PRS discovered the premises wasn't just a bar and amusement arcades, but had a theatre! A very different license - where PRS get a percentage of the box office income. A genuine mistake by green people - they did NOT get charged 10 years back fees, they just had to start doing it properly.

In general, dance is done properly, especially if they start doing more than just leisure activities.

PRS and PPL are easy to talk to. Advice to not pay is pretty stupid really. It's not optional, it's not really voluntary, but you do have a choice. Some people take this to mean it doesn't have to be done. The police are not going to arrest you, but the people who own the music (remember that even if you buy a CD, all you own is the plastic, and the music is NOT yours - all you have is permission to use it for domestic use) do have the right to do something about it.

alasdair and smo are just mistaken in their interpretation. The courts DO find for the copyright holders - but you don't get a criminal record, just a county court judgement against you, and if you then don't pay, in come the bailiffs.

I fail to see why so many people expect music to be free.

For years and years every record, then CD has had a copyright notice - If one artiste can sue another for using a bit of their recording without permission for millions - then if copyright was unenforceable what would be the point?

A small dance class is unlikely to be able to afford to defend a case, if it did get silly and end up in court. Just to make certain people know they do take people to court - here's an example from last year. They don't do it very often, preferring to negotiate, but they will. Low level county court is easy - but this one went to the High Court!
High Court Judgment: Remix Bar, Woking and PRS for Music
1st March 2012

PRS for Music welcomes the judgment of the Deputy High Court Judge, Kevin Prosser QC, in the case against Remix Bar in Woking, and the Judge's positive comments about the organisation and the damages awarded. This is a victory for common sense, for all those businesses that have obtained and paid for licences to cover their music use and for the music creators that PRS for Music represents.

The music licence held by Remix expired in December 2008 and despite repeated attempts to ensure a correct licence was in place, PRS for Music ultimately had to take legal action. Taking a customer to court is alwa s a last resort and in thirty years this is only one of three cases to reach trial. This could have easily been avoided, saving the bar owners Alexander and William Burns - one of whom is a music DJ himself and creator of music - both time and money.

The Judge's findings and the damages awarded reflect the seriousness of the infringement and the continued resistance of the Defendants to comply with their contractual and legal obligations. The legal action PRS for Music took was necessary to protect and defend the rights of its members and to echo the words of Kevin Prosser QC, "In order to protect its rights and the interest of its members, PRS must investigate whether music is being performed without a licence, and also whether licensees are performing music in public in excess of their declared usage. As a last resort, PRS brings legal proceedings for non-payment of royalties and for infringement of its copyright."

Keith Gilbert, Director of Public Performance Sales at PRS for Music, said: "Although taking legal action is never our preferred option we were forced down this path by the owners of Remix Bar who repeatedly evaded their obligations to pay for the music used. I'm delighted the court found in our favour and am heartened by the recognition of why PRS for Music had to bring legal proceedings. Our role is to protect the rights of our members; ensuring businesses that wish to use music can do so easily and are correctly licensed."
 
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frostystart

Hi, just came across these forums & I do apologise as I've searched this topic and know it's been covered but I wondered if anyone could help me with any updated information for my own situation.

I'm starting up a once-a-week adult dance class in a local community building (not a dance school). It's not professional dance training in any way, it's simply as a hobby. Even for myself, I'm not really classing this as a business and it's not really for profit-making. However, I AM charging for the class but the money will be spent on room hire and props (which are expensive).

I have registered with the tax to make sure everything is above board (though the chance I will ever pay an tax on it are virtually nil) and I've sorted out public liability insurance. However, I have only just realised that I have completey over-looked music licensing!

I've google info but I just wanted to make sure I had all the correct information. Do I need PRS, PPL or both? If anyone was willing to help me out that would be brilliant as I'm not entirely sure what I'm doing with this and my class starts in 2wks. Is it possible for me to get into trouble if I don't have one right away?

Any help much appreciated.

Imsradio.net now provide dance music as part of their Gold service, free trial available so check it out and see if its for you
 
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14Steve14

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They find you by chance, if they call say you dont play any music that needs royalties and off they toddle again. Simples!

I cant believe that you are saying someone should lie. If someone lied to you, would it be Ok with you. I very much doubt it. I say treat people as you want to be treated.
 
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paulears

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Don't think too badly of him - sadly, music is somehow always considered something unlike any other commodity that is traded or controlled. People always seem to look at rich pop stars and assume they don't need the money, or that they could easily give their music away. You never see people asking for food or water, or clothing to be given away free. People MUST eat, so Tesco and others must be bad people for charging? I view music as just the same thing - it's a product to be used to help pay my mortgage, and the last return I got from PRS was ....... zero. Nobody had used my music in the quarter, so I got nothing. Really funny, because I heard one of my tracks being used on a youtobe video. No idea how they found it, it was quite old - but the point was it was MINE! I didn't say they could use it, they didn't ask, and must have just copied it from somewhere and used it with no thought, and that is the problem. Stealing food is bad, stealing music isn't?
 
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simon field

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Don't think too badly of him - sadly, music is somehow always considered something unlike any other commodity that is traded or controlled. People always seem to look at rich pop stars and assume they don't need the money, or that they could easily give their music away. You never see people asking for food or water, or clothing to be given away free. People MUST eat, so Tesco and others must be bad people for charging? I view music as just the same thing - it's a product to be used to help pay my mortgage, and the last return I got from PRS was ....... zero. Nobody had used my music in the quarter, so I got nothing. Really funny, because I heard one of my tracks being used on a youtobe video. No idea how they found it, it was quite old - but the point was it was MINE! I didn't say they could use it, they didn't ask, and must have just copied it from somewhere and used it with no thought, and that is the problem. Stealing food is bad, stealing music isn't?

Do you really believe that two blokes in a shed with the radio on is stealing?

Doesn't this all come down to how you view things, ie, you've bought the radio, paid for the electricity, paid your license fee, bought the album on the strength of hearing the single advertising it on the radio, the artist has already been paid in advance for their record by the record company (both of whom had it good for years whilst charging upwards of £15 for a cd).

For instance, the radio can be on without you listening to it, no?

What you failed to mention is that the radio is an advert for the CD :)
 
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I think one of the main issues people have with this is that the radio station you are listening to has, or will be, paying for broadcasting the music.
The question is then why do we have to pay for listening to it as well, somebody is getting paid at least twice twice.

Obviously I agree there are different issues if somebody takes the music and uses it for their own commercial purposes, however for casual listening to a radio station that has already paid to broadcast the music, and then puts adverts between the tracks as well then I do believe it should be free.
 
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paulears

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We've done this to death before. READ THE COPYRIGHT NOTICE ON A CD. We are a business forum, consider what the license you are reading says, and then compare your use. If you feel it fits, fine - keep that in mind to convince a judge. Of course, as you say, this is unlikely to happen - BUT does that mean you can do what you like?

As it happens, I believe, very sincerely that what my brain produces is mine. We have patents to protect ideas and physical things. Mr Dyson did his paperwork properly and his product is protected. The man who wrote the Countdown - di di di di didly dit bum tune did very well. People take photographs and can sell them to the newspapers for lots of money. Nobody seems to have problems with this - but why do people attempt to be devious with music? Conjuring up excuses is a bit sad.
 
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simon field

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We've done this to death before. READ THE COPYRIGHT NOTICE ON A CD..[/QUOTE

No need to shout Paul!

How can I read the copyright notice if its being publicly and openly broadcast on a little Pure DAB radio for all to hear?

I can listen on my own, sure. But the minute my mate walks into the workshop it becomes a money-making excercise?

Respect to you for sticking up for what you believe in, but can you not see that my scenario is just a littl daft?
 
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paulears

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Sorry - was shouting to let people know that if they read the label on a CD they have at home, it explains why radio is not covered - it states very clearly what you cannot do with it, but as you've demonstrated, nobody ever reads it! There was a case I remember covering when I was teaching, but cannot find, where somebody used this to get a refund on a CD from a shop with a no refund policy on opened goods - because they could not agree with the copyright statement, so could not use it for their intended purpose, so got their refund. It's very similar to software. You own the CD - the plastic, but you do not own the content, you just bought a license to use it for a narrow range of use.
 
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People take photographs and can sell them to the newspapers for lots of money. Nobody seems to have problems with this - but why do people attempt to be devious with music? Conjuring up excuses is a bit sad.

Dear Paul

If only it were true about photographs. I am preparing a list of infringers to send off to a copyright chasing firm. Yesterday I counted 53. Last year it was 28. That is not counting infringements outside the UK or blogs. When I have written to some of these all I get is a brush off and no offer to pay a fee. When I ask for money the vitriol is unbelievable. From now on I'll be using tougher measures.
 
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paulears

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In the other topic - that court judgement that was made against somebody should be something that made the news, or at least business news. I know Getty get flack (mind you, only from those who have purloined images), but the attitude people have is really getting worse now. People really angry and upset people have the gall to want paying for what is theirs! Any argument is swept to one side. When people get stopped by the Police for traffic offences, they rarely try to argue those ones. Sorry Officer, but I don't agree with this 30 mph speed limit, therefore I can drive at 60.
 
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smutpedler

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My father owns two metal fabrication businesses and I work for both organisations. A few weeks ago a sales lady from PPL called me on the wrong number for the company she was trying to contact and then proceeded to explain why I need to give them money for a music license. She advised me that they would be sending invoices for the licence to my email address provided. At the end of the call she asked if I needed clarification on why we had to pay so I told her I was on their website looking up the applicable legislation and that; as a health & safety officer, I was very familiar with legal terminology and I would read up on the law myself but thanks for the offer.

She hung up on me and has never sent me these invoices.

I haven't actually read up on the copyright laws or looked into case law as to whether anyone has actually ever been prosecuted for using a radio at work (as I was going to when necessary) but why hang up on me and not invoice me if that's the law? Let's face it; if the law says your entitled to money - your gona take it!

Paul; the case you sited is where the music is integral to the business. It is not for us and we have no benefit of allowing people to bring their radios in. It costs us to ensure they are electrically safe before allowing their use! Most of the time; the radio is barley audible over the machinery anyway. My objection is that the radio station are paying for the copyright, the owner of the radio has paid for the the device and if they use headphones it doesn't cost us a license fee but without headphones we have to pay? There is no public performance aspect to what we do. Everyone is in their own work bay with their own music system. As soon as I enter earshot to give them drawings; this becomes a public performance?

Like I say, I can understand why a bar/club who make money from people listening to music should pay but for a business like us it seems it would be better to simply ban music as it serves little business purpose. I have my own office and would be charged for listening to the internet radio as soon as anyone else comes into the room. Odd. The fact is I usually turn it off to hear people talk! I think there's a difference between a "public performance" and listening to a radio whilst you write a risk assessment and PPL stands for "Public Performance License". I think they may well be able to take you to court if your are indeed putting on public performances (as the company name suggests) but if your not; I fail to see why you would want a public performance license.

Not too sure on the exact legalities but I'm fairly certain this is most peoples issue, not wanting everything for free. Simply understanding the semantics of it all. Is the radio playing in a florists a public performance in the eyes of the law? I don't know but think that is the main area of confusion for all of these threads I've read since my call.

Again, if I am personally playing my radio in public does this mean I am personally putting on a public performance and need a license? How about buskers performing a cover song? Confusing? I think I am going to read up on this a bit. Not trying to argue; just figure my way around this all...
 
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paulears

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I understand your feelings, but there are many quite common sense errors. The BBC have a remit to broadcast to the general public, and their copyright payments cover the broadcasting of their music to private individuals. They pay nothing for broadcasting to business consumers, it's not in the BBC charter. It is of course, quite silly in practice. Her Majesties Prison Service allow prisoners to listen to radio, however, they do not have a license to allow their employees to listen - so a prison officer cannot listen to a radio in his office, but a prisoner in the cell next door can!


Music used as 'pleasant background music' could be replaced by muzak - recorded especially for this purpose, often either hired and changed regularly so as to not drive the staff mad, or bought outright to be used for ever.

It's also very confusing for people because of the terminology. The Performing Rights Society not being that interested in Performance, because they look after the composer's, not the performer's rights, while PPL is actual Phonographic Performance, not public - so they look after the rights of the original performer - very often the record company. The names don't help. The third organisation MCPS, who look after then mechanical side of things are interested in the pressing of CDs, duplication of works, and technically even the transfer of a copyright item from one media to another - so if the BBC copy a CD to say, a hard drive, that is a process that has to be recorded and perhaps even paid for - depending on what it is.

Your example of a Florist is a public performance because you are allowing people to hear it on your business premises. even if they don't wish to, or even hate it!

There are precedents set, and it's even a breach if you allow an employee to use his own iPod with headphones. These things rarely get followed through - but that's not to say it's allowed. PRS/MCPS and PPL are agents, acting on behalf of their members, who often believe they're not that good at collecting what they should, but we have no other way to collect money. Very often it is done statistically, and only a few users produce itemised lists of the music played - but when they do this, the results just get multiplied. Small people like me often get or don't get payments because we just didn't get included in the sampling. Annoying but tough!

I do understand people's frustrations with the system, but if you go to the PRS site, there is a section for music users and music producers. Two groups of people with an interest in music. The thing to remember with music is that it is only free if you use it totally privately. Any form of sharing, or business use will not be covered by what you paid to buy it. If you do a Google search for copyright free music you will find lots of people selling it. Their business is built around using music honestly and legally. If you go to the theatre, they will be paying around 2% of the money they take at the box office to the copyright agencies, AND they will have a separate license for music in the bars etc.
 
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smutpedler

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Thanks for the reply Paul. It's quite a sticky subject by the looks of it.

What really baffled me was why she hung up on me and hasn't followed through with the invoices after I said I was going to educate myself on the law. Maybe it would simply cost them too much to battle us for the small fee? But then, if it's by law we have to pay; they could just CCJ us for non-payment?

I think your right; it is the terminology that confuses people. I must have got a bit confused about the company name as she kept referring to what we need as a Public Performance License and the company as PPL.

She also got quite irate as I said the audible area varies depending on the processes and machinery in use that day. Maybe I'm just awkward :)
 
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paulears

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I do suspect that their tactics are based around how easy each call will be! PRS used to be the ones who called on businesses, but now PPL are doing the same. Imagine the feelings of those who did pay PRS only to discover they also needed to pay PPL. That's why so many people get very annoyed!

As for the County Court. They could, and almost certainly would win, but they are a small organisation and long term transgressors seem to be their targets, at least, for the moment!
 
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mission61

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They very very rarely take anyone to court because they rarely win.

They find you by chance, if they call say you dont play any music that needs royalties and off they toddle again. Simples!

Just to say that I work with songwriters and music producers and I'd really like to ask all the contributors to this thread to consider the songwriters before making statements like the one quoted.

Its not like years ago when you could write one song and buy a house with the resulting income. Young up and coming writers will no longer have those kinds of possibilities because of the demise of the music industry.

So what if it costs a few quid? Please consider that someone has literally spent weeks of their life creating and perfecting that music for others to enjoy and it actually isn't fair to the writers to just use their work without paying.

PRS & PPL were set up to protect the songwriting industry. They're the good guys! If you have children, then you might understand how difficult it is for young people to find worthwhile careers and have enough money to start families etc. They are the ones who suffer because of mindsets like the one above.

I'm not having a go. Just pointing out how these attitudes affect the writers I work with.

Cheers
 
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Davek0974

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I think one of the main issues people have with this is that the radio station you are listening to has, or will be, paying for broadcasting the music.
The question is then why do we have to pay for listening to it as well, somebody is getting paid at least twice twice.

Obviously I agree there are different issues if somebody takes the music and uses it for their own commercial purposes, however for casual listening to a radio station that has already paid to broadcast the music, and then puts adverts between the tracks as well then I do believe it should be free.


What he said :)

We had this out years ago - it gets worse...

Ten people at a bench with headphones on playing Radio2 = no payments required.

Ten people at a bench with a radio on the bench = payments needed.

Go figure.
As in the quoted post - it is public broadcast radio and should be free.

Now it may be different if you play recorded music - then i would accept paying a fee.
 
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Was in Poundland this morning buying some sharpie pens.
Could not get out of the shop fast enough.
Heavy thumping hip-hop jungle "music" drivel assaulting my ears.

Even Justin Bieber would be an improvement.

Have to feel sorry for the employees forced to suffer that all day long - every day.

Does Poundland,
and quite a few other shops, actually pay PRS to inflict severe psychological stress
on their employees and deliberately drive customers away ?

Is there any legislation under Health and Safety in the workplace, where employees can
force the shop to turn off that mind damaging crap ?


.
 
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Its not like years ago when you could write one song and buy a house with the resulting income. Young up and coming writers will no longer have those kinds of possibilities because of the demise of the music industry.
1. The music industry is far from dead. In fact it is making more money through live gigs, movie licenses and sync licenses than ever.

2. What has died a death is the recorded music industry - and the blame is largely to be placed at the feet of the labels, who honestly thought that the party would just never end and did nothing to adapt to new technologies, leaving the door wide open to dot-com adventurers who did a scorch-n-burn with royalties.

3. Back around 1960, a number one hit in the UK could earn the composer about £6,000 - enough to buy four houses or two Rolls-Royces! Today, he or she will earn about £6,000 - about enough to service that Rolls Royce!

This thread is FIVE F*****G YEARS OLD!!!
And yes, this thread really does have grey hairs all over its legs!
 
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