Europe should we stay in or get out?

[Scott-Copywriter]

A very good piece from The Guardian today:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/26/brexit-eu-referendum-disunited-kingdom

With very difficult times ahead for the British people, and a pro-Brexit Government likely to come into force with top leavers at the helm, there is simply no route ahead other than the majority of leave supporters eventually turning against the politicians they sided with in the vote to leave. It's just a matter of time.

When working-class people who are already under hardship will be pushed even deeper by the economic difficulties we're about to face, and many of those promises of stopping immigration and pouring millions into the NHS will not come to pass, any post-Cameron Government will be a poisoned chalice.

This is further amplified by the fact that, as the article mentioned, Nigel Farage will be hovering around ready to call traitor on any concessions the UK Government makes with the EU, which they will have to do to have any hope of halting a massive economic slump.

I'm honestly not surprised that Boris, Gove et all look so miserable lately. Cameron has checkmated them all. They cannot win. Any outcome from this point forward will have the majority of leave supporters vying for blood due to increased hardship, concessions with the EU, or both.

 

[Ian J]

I'm honestly not surprised that Boris, Gove et all look so miserable lately. Cameron has checkmated them all. They cannot win.

Some of the garbage that the remain losers have come out with is just laughable. If Boris, Gove and Co have looked miserable in the media it's because the media have taken thousands of photographs and have published those that fit their agenda.

 

[boring-friday]

They're only check mated if its a fact that the UK is going to turn into a dump now we're leaving

 

[sirearl]

https://next.ft.com/content/2b84027e-3b93-11e6-9f2c-36b487ebd80a

.




Don't think that will affect you? The UK financial services industry pays £65billion of tax to the UK Government every year, which is over 11% of the Government's total annual tax receipts.

?

So who do you think they rip off to make such vast profits.

In a sane world do we need these parasites.?

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

Some of the garbage that the remain losers have come out with is just laughable. If Boris, Gove and Co have looked miserable in the media it's because the media have taken thousands of photographs and have published those that fit their agenda.

Let me guess. You haven't watched the full videos of the press conferences involving Boris, Gove and the rest, have you? Not just photographs, but the full, uninterrupted press conferences from start to finish.

If you had, you'd realise that their demeanour paints a vivid expression. Whilst Nigel Farage is jumping around with joy, they are clearly becoming acutely aware of the situation in front of them as the front-runners for the next Government.

Whilst I'm sure there are a small minority who understood and accepted that a recession is ahead, and considered that a price worth paying, there are multiple surveys which show that most people simply do not believe that Brexit will have any negative impact on their finances.

Many people also believe that much of that EU fee will go towards the NHS, and many people believe that immigration will grind to a halt.

None of these are going to happen. The economic downturn will squeeze the NHS even further, and even Dan Hannan, one of the key leave politicians, has stated recently that his proposed idea of post-Brexit UK involves the continued free movement of labour. Watch it for yourself, if you wish:

Contrast this with Gove's claims that Brexit will allow net migration to drop by 70% to bring it under 100,000:

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36454908

And you can see where the problems clearly start to arise.

The leave supporters have based their campaign on a large number of promises the British public have believed which they will be unable to keep. This wouldn't have been an issue if remain had won, but now they're facing the shock reality that we've actually left.

With Cameron resigning, these politicians are now in the spotlight to deliver the promises they have used to convince the majority of the public. They will now be considered acutely responsible for everything which is about to unfold.

Take those working-class people who voted en masse for Brexit. When their financial difficulties get worse, the money for the NHS doesn't appear, immigration still continues and the pro-leave politicians start advocating concessions with the EU to remain in the single market, how do you think they're going to react?

If there's one truth about the electorate in virtually every country in the world, it's that they're a fickle bunch. There certainly aren't many people out there who give Cameron a pat on the back and understand his strict austerity measures are partially down to Labour overspending.

Life will get harder, promises will be broken, and if it's a Government led by pro-Brexit politicians dragging us through this, it's just a matter of time before leave supporters start asking these politicians why the EU-free UK is not the nirvana they were told it would be.

Let's not also forget other parties like the Lib Dems and the SNP who are advocating resistance to leaving the EU. I wonder how many of the 48% of the remainers they are likely to grab?

If you are not able to comprehend any of this, then believe me, Boris Johnson, Michael Gove, Dan Hannan and the rest are. With the promises which have been made, and the dismissal of "project fear" which has taken place, a future pro-Brexit Government guiding us through this mess will be stepping into political annihilation.

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

They're only check mated if its a fact that the UK is going to turn into a dump now we're leaving

Heightened economic hardship in the next few years is a certainty, with a recession a clear and likely possibility.

Any leave supporter with their head screwed on will admit that, but for them, it's about the long-term.

Now the question is whether the majority of the electorate will have that same point of view when their finances are being squeezed even further by a Government led by the pro-Brexit politicians who convinced them to leave.

If there's one undeniable fact about politics, it's that the "it will get worse before it gets better" approach never, ever goes down well.

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

We finally have word from Boris Johnson, the politician who is most likely to lead the Government who will negotiate our exit from the EU:

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-36637037

His column said: "I cannot stress too much that Britain is part of Europe, and always will be.

"There will still be intense and intensifying European cooperation and partnership in a huge number of fields: the arts, the sciences, the universities, and on improving the environment.

"EU citizens living in this country will have their rights fully protected, and the same goes for British citizens living in the EU.

"British people will still be able to go and work in the EU; to live; to travel; to study; to buy homes and to settle down. As the German equivalent of the CBI - the BDI - has very sensibly reminded us, there will continue to be free trade, and access to the single market."

"The only change - and it will not come in any great rush - is that the UK will extricate itself from the EU's extraordinary and opaque system of legislation: the vast and growing corpus of law enacted by a European Court of Justice from which there can be no appeal."

Are the pennies starting to drop yet?

For those who voted purely on the principle of UK law supremacy, I'm sure it sounds like good news. However, the main proponent of Leave, the person most likely to lead the Government in our exit, is already pouring ice cold water on the idea that free movement of people, free trade and access to the single market will change.

This is the biggest problem with leave supporters which will ultimately come back to bite the whole movement: people have voted based on what they personally think should happen post-Brexit, not what will actually happen under the leadership of the pro-Brexit politicians.

 

[sirearl]

Why do people believe in that old chestnut "with great age comes wisdom" as it's just not true

Nope but it does give one experience, in my case many years of seeing the decline of the quality of life in Britain something the younger generation can not appreciate .

 

[Ian J]

<snip 494 words>

If you are not able to comprehend any of this, then believe me, Boris Johnson, Michael Gove, Dan Hannan and the rest are.

Congratulations. You managed almost 500 words before your first insult.

Hopefully Boris and Michael will have spotted that you have a far greater intellect than they do and will ask you to come on board as their principle advisor and guiding hand

 

[threenine]

The irony about this whole affair, is that for years the "leave campaign" have been moaning about being part of the EU, so much so that the country was driven to this referendum.

It is now that same group, that are now asking the remain to unite behind their cause!

This truly does make me laugh!! The thing I am most proud of is that us British are world leaders in irony!

 

[quikshop]

You guys still rocking this thread!? You do know the referendum finished last week?

Even Osbourne has come out to bat for the UK post-Brexit, albeit through gritted teeth. All we need now is for the BBC and Scott-Copywriter to stop their doom and gloom bitterness and we'll be fine

 

[threenine]

To be honest, I'm just exercising my British Democratic right, and I'm moaning!

One of the many great things about being British, is that I can moan about everything. To be honest I would've moaned either way, and will continue to moan.

 

[quikshop]

To be honest, I'm just exercising my British Democratic right, and I'm moaning!

One of the many great things about being British, is that I can moan about everything. To be honest I would've moaned either way, and will continue to moan.

I'll drink to that. Actually I'll drink to anything, moaning about stuff and drinking is what makes us British

 

[TODonnell]

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...bond-market-s-got-bigger-concerns-than-brexit

"While the Brexit vote roiled financial markets and caused a surge in haven demand, Major says investors in the $100 trillion bond market need to look at deeper structural problems plaguing the world: demographics, the explosion of debt globally and the disparity in wealth between the rich and poor."

- What's been missing in all this is a clear pro. vs. con. table, and the wider picture.

- I'm pretty sure sure the EU overlords are a vindictive bunch. They've put the screws on Greece when even the IMF was saying lay off. So it'll come down to who's got leverage on whom.

I think it's time to play hardball, or, just politely walk away from the table with your stake and your shirt and then get on with the rest of your life, metaphorically speaking.

- Q: How many EU countries are actually solvent i.e. in the black?

- Every time I think we might have made a mistake I remember one more little bit of skullduggery they tried, like the tobin tax: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-15552412

We must remember that the seemingly faceless bureaucrats who control the EU are citizens of member states and may not be as even-handed in their approach to Le Roast Boeuf as they would like to appear.

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

"While the Brexit vote roiled financial markets and caused a surge in haven demand, Major says investors in the $100 trillion bond market need to look at deeper structural problems plaguing the world: demographics, the explosion of debt globally and the disparity in wealth between the rich and poor."

The EU has been a major driving force in reducing the disparity between the rich and poor.

That's why they have large regional development funds where more money is sent to poorer countries and poorer regions within countries (like Cornwall and the North East) to stimulate economies and reduce economic inequality.

However, the UK has now left that, with some leave supporters claiming it's unfair that poorer countries get more out of the EU than we do. They can't win, can they?

Sure, the EU isn't perfect, and in some cases may even come across as vindictive, but the UK is hardly any different. Whilst the EU squeezes Greece to reduce the deficit, the UK squeezes public services and working-class people to solve the same issue.

- Every time I think we might have made a mistake I remember one more little bit of skullduggery they tried, like the tobin tax: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-15552412

Tried and failed. In a large cooperative of countries, many ideas will obviously be floated around which won't come to pass. It's the same in any business. If you're sat around a table in a meeting, not every idea or suggestion put forward by individuals is going to be a winner.

It even states in that article that if the 11 European countries can't get worldwide approval, they will just proceed with going ahead on their own voluntarily. That's fair, is it not?

The big worry for me is when the EU starts making decisions to benefit its own members which the UK is no longer able to influence if it disagrees. At the end of the day, we will still be heavily effected by these decisions due to our deeply-rooted trade with Europe.

Take banking regulations, for example. We've always had a big voice in those to find a fair compromise for the Pound and the City of London as a financial centre. Now that voice has gone.

 

[threenine]

I love spotting the irony in this whole thing!

On the one hand, we're led to believe by the older generation, who many claimed the voted to join the EU, in 1973, that they now voted to leave, because they feel it was a mistake back then.

The Irony now, given their track record on voting, how do we really know that this is the right decision? Honestly, I think we should really give the under 8's the vote. I feel they would make a better decision, because it's purely evident that neither side of this debate has ever provided the truth.

 

[quikshop]

The EU has been a major driving force in reducing the disparity between the rich and poor.

That's why they have large regional development funds where more money is sent to poorer countries and poorer regions within countries (like Cornwall and the North East) to stimulate economies and reduce economic inequality.

It is a big ol' socialist wealth re-distribution project that has a huge central flaw... it is impossible to achieve the Utopian goal of 28 balanced equal economies with Citizen Europe all benefiting alike.

And all the while the wealthier Countries like Britain are hit with a double-whammy as they pay more into the project than they get back to its poorer regions, and suffer sustained degrading of its public sector and support services caused by the Tory governments ideological destruction amplified by an unplanned ever increasing population.

It is a fallacy to think an improving economy alone raises living standards... just ask those on zero-hours contracts.

 

[Ian J]

I love spotting the irony in this whole thing!

On the one hand, we're led to believe by the older generation, who many claimed the voted to join the EU, in 1973, that they now voted to leave, because they feel it was a mistake back then.

The Irony now, given their track record on voting, how do we really know that this is the right decision? .

Us oldies didn't make a mistake back in 1973 because what we voted to become a part of was a vastly different animal to what it is today as shown by it's original name "European Economic Community.

If we were told back then that it would change drastically to become a political union of federated countries which would be expanded to include all of the poorer Eastern European countries I doubt whether any of us would have voted for it.

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

I love spotting the irony in this whole thing!

On the one hand, we're led to believe by the older generation, who many claimed the voted to join the EU, in 1973, that they now voted to leave, because they feel it was a mistake back then.

The Irony now, given their track record on voting, how do we really know that this is the right decision? Honestly, I think we should really give the under 8's the vote. I feel they would make a better decision, because it's purely evident that neither side of this debate has ever provided the truth.

I find it appalling that 16 and 17 year olds were not allowed to vote. This is their future, and they will be hit hardest by this most of all.

I'm also supremely confident that people of this age would have ended up being a lot more informed on this decision than a fair few 40 and 50 year olds.

When you look on social media and see teenagers trying to explain to people three times their age that the £350million per week figure is nonsense, that really says it all.

 

[threenine]

If we were told back then that it would change drastically to become a political union of federated countries which would be expanded to include all of the poorer Eastern European countries I doubt whether any of us would have voted for it.

This absolutely makes me laugh!

The way I see it, helping these countries to develop and prosper can only help to increase trade. It's this short sighted-ness that I feel is in question.

This is also what I see as bigotry. It's alright if you're wealthy and prosperous, but god help you if you're poor!

I'm sorry I still don't buy any of the reasons for leave at this stage. I'm only slightly swayed by remain, only based on some of the evidence of the results achieved.

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

It is a big ol' socialist wealth re-distribution project that has a huge central flaw... it is impossible to achieve the Utopian goal of 28 balanced equal economies with Citizen Europe all benefiting alike.

And all the while the wealthier Countries like Britain are hit with a double-whammy as they pay more into the project than they get back to its poorer regions, and suffer sustained degrading of its public sector and support services caused by the Tory governments ideological destruction amplified by an unplanned ever increasing population.

It is a fallacy to think an improving economy alone raises living standards... just ask those on zero-hours contracts.

Impossible, probably. However, I don't think anyone ever thought that countries like Romania would one day have the same GDP per capita as the UK.

It doesn't need to be equal, but reducing the gap even slightly helps a great deal. Countries do not need equal living standards to stop large-scale immigration. The gulf just doesn't need to be so large.

Look at the Czech Republic. It's one of the fastest growing countries in Eastern Europe. Whilst its salaries and living standards are not as high as the UK's overall, the number of Czechs in the UK is estimated to be only around 40,000 due to net Czech emigration out of the UK in recent years.

Despite free movement, there are more foreign-born Russians, Brazilians and Malaysians in the UK than there are Czechs.

A great EU success story, no?

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

The way I see it, helping these countries to develop and prosper can only help to increase trade. It's this short sighted-ness that I feel is in question.

You're spot on. Some people are very short-sighted.

Other countries developing and becoming more prosperous not only reduces the incentive to immigrate into the UK, but it also develops far more lucrative trading partners for us to help our own economy to grow.

Most leave supporters are only interested in solving the symptom, not the cause.

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36637232

The tough stance begins.

Pro-leave politicians don't want to be in any rush to start the formal withdrawal process, but the EU, including Germany, refuses to begin any talks until that happens.

We're at loggerheads with the EU members already and we're only 4 days in.

 

[Deleted member 59730]

I find it appalling that 16 and 17 year olds were not allowed to vote. This is their future, and they will be hit hardest by this most of all.

There was also the major cock-up over the removal of so many young people from the "household" register. Has any research been done of the difference between the 2 voters rolls?

There is also the problem of the overseas voters' lost ballot papers. Apparently some were handed to foreign postal services in the same way that junk mail is handled.

 

[quikshop]

There was also the major cock-up over the removal of so many young people from the "household" register. Has any research been done of the difference between the 2 voters rolls?

Nope. The register was brought up to date and it naturally impacted students more because they are transient creatures. I know because I own a couple of them. It's not as if they were given extra time to register, oh wait, they were.

It does put a smile on my face to see the same cut'n'paste bitter resentment from the last general election re-cycled as the left-of-centre Rainbow Coalition's dreams went up in smoke against all predictions... well, apart from anyone who pays attention to what's actually going on instead of what the BBC tells them

 

[Ian J]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36637232

The tough stance begins.

Pro-leave politicians don't want to be in any rush to start the formal withdrawal process, but the EU, including Germany, refuses to begin any talks until that happens.

We're at loggerheads with the EU members already and we're only 4 days in.

Is there nothing that you won't twist to suit your agenda. Nobody is at loggerheads with anyone, nobody said that notice to withdraw would start within seconds of the votes being counted and it's pretty obvious that we aren't going to do anything until a new Prime Minister is appointed.

 

[quikshop]

Impossible, probably. However, I don't think anyone ever thought that countries like Romania would one day have the same GDP per capita as the UK.

It doesn't need to be equal, but reducing the gap even slightly helps a great deal. Countries do not need equal living standards to stop large-scale immigration. The gulf just doesn't need to be so large.

Look at the Czech Republic. It's one of the fastest growing countries in Eastern Europe. Whilst its salaries and living standards are not as high as the UK's overall, the number of Czechs in the UK is estimated to be only around 40,000 due to net Czech emigration out of the UK in recent years.

Despite free movement, there are more foreign-born Russians, Brazilians and Malaysians in the UK than there are Czechs.

A great EU success story, no?

If we had a Government who levelled with the people from the outset, told them that this is a big ol' redistribution of wealth project for the greater good, and look what has been achieved so far, how many people do you think would accept a lower standard of living here now and for a generation to come as an acceptable price to pay?

Around 17+ million wouldn't. Very few people above the age of 20 understand what it means to be an internationalist. And of those that do, the trust they have in faceless bureaucrats diminishes every time one of them threatens the British people with retribution for not towing the line.

 

[john1989]

Is there nothing that you won't twist to suit your agenda. Nobody is at loggerheads with anyone, nobody said that notice to withdraw would start within seconds of the votes being counted and it's pretty obvious that we aren't going to do anything until a new Prime Minister is appointed.

Quite right, Ian.

Until we give formal notice under Article 50, the ball is in our court.
In the event of an exit, nothing was going to be done in the first few days / weeks. Why people are expecting I don't know.

 

[threenine]

which to me and those around me is almost identical as it was previously.

Wow, so it's a no change thing??

So it's a difference of no difference?

Get used to it, there is going to be 40 years of moaning just like there was before. Deal with it

 

[quikshop]

Get used to it, there is going to be 40 years of moaning just like there was before. Deal with it

Damn it I might have to do some work instead of chewing the cud with you lot

http://uk.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-king-idUKKCN0ZD1GW

He knows were he might speak.

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

Is there nothing that you won't twist to suit your agenda. Nobody is at loggerheads with anyone, nobody said that notice to withdraw would start within seconds of the votes being counted and it's pretty obvious that we aren't going to do anything until a new Prime Minister is appointed.

You misunderstood my point.

The UK wants to wait. The EU doesn't. The UK wants to slow things down whilst the EU wants to speed them up. The EU, and even Germany, also won't discuss the matter further until then.

Both parties are already trying to pull in different directions. It's not a good omen for when the negotiations actually begin.

EU lawyers have even been studying Article 50, and some have came to the conclusion that, legally speaking, the UK doesn't have to submit a formal withdrawal. In reality, our officials even discussing our exit with EU diplomats could be considered as sufficient notification of intent to leave, meaning that the 2-year exit period could be started by the EU before the UK wants it to be.

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

If we had a Government who levelled with the people from the outset, told them that this is a big ol' redistribution of wealth project for the greater good, and look what has been achieved so far, how many people do you think would accept a lower standard of living here now and for a generation to come as an acceptable price to pay?

Around 17+ million wouldn't. Very few people above the age of 20 understand what it means to be an internationalist. And of those that do, the trust they have in faceless bureaucrats diminishes every time one of them threatens the British people with retribution for not towing the line.

Who says reducing inequality involves reducing our living standards?

The EU payments of member countries are supposed to be 1% of each members national GDP. This is for free access to the single market and the huge trade and economic benefits it brings. This is also why Norway and Switzerland must continue to pay in (Norway pay more per head than we do).

In reality, due to our rebate, we even pay less than that, with other EU members making up the shortfall.

We'll continue to pay billions to the EU whatever happens. In fact, we're highly likely to end up paying more than we are now as a bargaining chip, so we can continue to have access to the single market but only with free movement of labour instead of free movement of people. There will be a price to pay for that type of deal.

In reality, Brexit will also make it easier for countries to develop at our expense, because any businesses and jobs based in the UK for access to the EU single market can now be coaxed back into the EU by existing members

 

[john1989]

Who says reducing inequality involves reducing our living standards?

The EU payments of member countries are supposed to be 1% of each members national GDP. This is for free access to the single market and the huge trade and economic benefits it brings. This is also why Norway and Switzerland must continue to pay in (Norway pay more per head than we do).

In reality, due to our rebate, we even pay less than that, with other EU members making up the shortfall.

We'll continue to pay billions to the EU whatever happens. In fact, we're highly likely to end up paying more than we are now as a bargaining chip, so we can continue to have access to the single market but only with free movement of labour instead of free movement of people. There will be a price to pay for that type of deal.

In reality, Brexit will also make it easier for countries to develop at our expense, because any businesses and jobs based in the UK for access to the EU single market can now be coaxed back into the EU by existing members

Yet are still unable to differentiate between opinion and fact.

 

[threenine]

Yet are still unable to differentiate between opinion and fact.

The whole campaign was based on Opinions not facts.

 

[TODonnell]

I think they should move the age of voting up to 40 and permit only males, who are married, with children and property, suffrage.

That would cut out a lot of spin and posturing. You'd get more crusty old geezers in office and fewer pretty boys like Bliar and Cameroon.

 

[TODonnell]

See, there you go, as soon as the Toxic Octopus is threatened, it puts on the squeeze.

Those guys really need to be decanted from their gated estates.

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

Yet are still unable to differentiate between opinion and fact.

Wait and see then.

My prediction in the next 5 years: continued free movement of labour, continued regulatory acceptance and a much higher annual fee than we're paying currently.

Even Dan Hannan, a strong pro-leaver, has stated that the UK should allow free movement of labour for continued access to the single market. Boris Johnson has also stated that the right to live and work in Europe will continue. These are not the opinions of working-class voters. These are the opinions of the politicians who will actually be leading these negotiations.

When every other country must allow the free movement of people, there must be a trade-off for the UK to gain such a favourable deal. That trade-off will be money.

 

[RBS]

You MUST check this out!!! Some amazing reasons why we should have voted IN

https://www.facebook.com/plugins/vi...045793913/videos/212815595779058/&show_text=0

 

[Newchodge]

You MUST check this out!!! Some amazing reasons why we should have voted IN

https://www.facebook.com/plugins/video.php?href=https://www.facebook.com/212667045793913/videos/212815595779058/&show_text=0

I haven't bothered to check it, but isn't it a bit bloody late?

 

[KM-Tiger]

Us oldies didn't make a mistake back in 1973 because what we voted to become a part of was a vastly different animal to what it is today as shown by it's original name "European Economic Community.

Yes that's what I thought back then, but we were lied to as political union was in the orginal treaties. I was taken in by Edward Heath saying that there would be no surrender of sovereignty. He quite simply lied.

And to put this into context for the younger members here. It was our parents and grandparents who fought and died in two world wars to ensure that we could vote, and be able to change the direction of govt if we saw fit. They did in 1945, shook the establishment to its core and voted in the Labour govt that produced the NHS. We then made big changes in 1979 and again in 1997.

But what we have seen is that as the EU took over more and more, then the opportunity for those radical changes had diminished to virtually zero.

So yes, many older people voted out, much to the annoyance of many younger people. But we did that to ensure that those young people would be able to vote in the future and for those votes to count.