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ShirleyM
Personally, no, as I think we can do better. If there is no self-government, then it isn't a solution that I would approve of.
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Europe should we stay in or get out?
- Thread starter Funding for Communities
- Start date
Personally, no, as I think we can do better. If there is no self-government, then it isn't a solution that I would approve of.
Yes they do.
The European Parliament Elections allow every member of the public to vote on MEP representatives.
These MEPs then vote by majority verdict on the President of the Commission.
The President then selects 27 members of the Commission, one for each EU member, based on nominations of the member states, which then must receive consent from the publicly elected European Parliament.
The European Parliament, which is publicly elected by the people, can also force the entire commission body to resign with a motion of censure.
You have a say in everything, and if you're thinking that you don't have much of a say, then I would argue that you have equally little say in the UK democratic process as well, considering that you were one of the 3.8million UKIP voters who only had a single MP elected to Parliament.
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You totally miss the point.
British voters can and do change the government.
British voters don't have a hope in hell of changing the EU government.
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J
john1989
Utter rubbish.
And if you speak to people in NI, normalisation is far away regardless of EU membership.
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D
Deleted member 226268
.
There is going to be a deep recession throughout all of Europe soon,
it really does not matter any more whether UK will be in, or out, of the Great Mess.
We will be dragged down in any case.
Mass unemployment is coming, driven by the uncertainty, of the uncertainty.
The only certain certainty, is that there are going to be a lot more riots on the streets.
And not just the immigrant hordes.
Here is the hors d'oeuvres for this month.
http://www.pri.org/stories/2016-05-...rassment-drive-employees-away-not-much-longer
Spain will be next month.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/columnis...truth-Europe-s-riven-hatred-time-1945-EU.html
.
There is going to be a deep recession throughout all of Europe soon,
it really does not matter any more whether UK will be in, or out, of the Great Mess.
We will be dragged down in any case.
Mass unemployment is coming, driven by the uncertainty, of the uncertainty.
The only certain certainty, is that there are going to be a lot more riots on the streets.
And not just the immigrant hordes.
Here is the hors d'oeuvres for this month.
http://www.pri.org/stories/2016-05-...rassment-drive-employees-away-not-much-longer
Spain will be next month.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/columnis...truth-Europe-s-riven-hatred-time-1945-EU.html
.
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I understand the EU is all about being made to share with our neighbours, right?
Have a little look at this:
Pete Giles
June 7 at 9:19pm
·
OK,.. here's a short list of financial and industrial FUBARs from the EU then,.. (it was longer, much longer, but really tough reading. I have however edited this slightly due to those who have asked me to clarify some points. All of it has been fact-checked not only by myself but also many others.)
Cadbury moved production of several brands to a factory in Poland 2011 with EU grant. Despite promising the workforce they would not.
Ford Transit moved to Turkey 2013 with EU grant.
Jaguar Land Rover has recently agreed to build a new plant in Slovakia with EU grant, owned by Tata, the same company who have trashed our steel works and emptied the workers pension funds. They have not yet said what UK plants will lose out.
Peugeot closed its Ryton (was Rootes Group) plant and moved production to Slovakia with EU grant. That move was not wanted by Peugeot, it was forced on them by EU blundering and cost then dearly.
British Army's new Ajax fighting vehicles to be built in Spain using Swedish steel at the request of the EU to support jobs in Spain with EU grant, rather than Wales. (Just assembly. They could have been built entirely in Wales with British steel, ah Tata, maybe not then.)
Dyson gone to Malaysia, with an EU loan. (I didn't believe this till I checked Financial Times)
Crown Closures, Bournemouth (Was METAL BOX), gone to Poland with EU grant, once employed 1,200.
M&S manufacturing gone to far east with EU loan.
Hornby models gone. In fact all toys and models now gone from UK along with the patents all with with EU grants.
Gillette gone to eastern Europe with EU grant.
Texas Instruments Greenock gone to Germany with EU grant.
Indesit at Bodelwyddan Wales gone with EU grant.
Sekisui Alveo said production at its Merthyr Tydfil Industrial Park foam plant will relocate production to Roermond in the Netherlands, with EU funding.
Hoover Merthyr factory moved out of UK to Czech Republic and the Far East by Italian company Candy with EU backing.
ICI integration into Holland’s AkzoNobel with EU bank loan and within days of the merger, several factories in the UK, were closed, eliminating 3,500 jobs
Boots sold to Italians Stefano Pessina who have based their HQ in Switzerland to avoid tax to the tune of £80 million a year, using an EU loan for the purchase. (Now sold on again)
JDS Uniphase run by two Dutch men, bought up companies in the UK with £20 million in EU 'regeneration' grants, created a pollution nightmare and just closed it all down leaving 1,200 out of work and an environmental clean-up paid for by the UK tax-payer. They also raided the pension fund and drained it dry. (Joint CEOs charged with financial trading fraud, insider trading)
UK airports are owned by a Spanish company.
Scottish Power is owned by a Spanish company.
Most London buses are run by Spanish and German companies.
The Hinkley Point C nuclear power station to be built by French company EDF, part owned by the French government, using cheap Chinese steel that has catastrophically failed in other nuclear installations. Now EDF say the costs will be double or more and it will be very late even if it does come online.
Swindon was once our producer of rail locomotives and rolling stock. Not any more, it's Bombardier in Derby and due to their losses in the aviation market, that could see the end of the British railways manufacturing altogether even though Bombardier had EU grants to keep Derby going which they diverted to their loss-making aviation side in Canada. New trains contract awarded to German company.
39% of British invention patents have been passed to foreign companies, many of them in the EU
The Mini cars that Cameron stood in front of as an example of British engineering, are built by BMW mostly in Holland and Austria and those parts assembled in the UK. His campaign bus was made in Germany even though we have Plaxton, Optare, Bluebird, Dennis etc., in the UK. The bicycle for the Greens was made in the far east, not by Raleigh UK but then they are probably going to move to the Netherlands too as they have said recently.
Anyone who thinks the EU is good for British industry or any other business simply hasn't paid attention to what has been systematically asset-stripped from the UK. Name me one major technology company still running in the UK, I used to contract out to many, then the work just dried up as they were sold off to companies from France, Germany, Holland, Belgium, etc., and now we don't even teach electronic technology for technicians any more, due to EU regulations.
Yes some companies are in the UK with EU funding, but have you noticed that many, like Tata, are planning to shift the production away again, as soon as they will not have to pay a penalty to the EU for doing so. Hundreds already did, just using British skills to develop products and then opt for lower labour costs, often with a serious loss in quality too like Bosch alternators. Many employ staff only on a part-time basis, minimum wage and even those sent by DWP to work for nothing, those get just their benefits.
I haven't detailed our non-existent fishing industry the EU paid to destroy, nor the farmers being paid NOT to produce food they could sell for more than they get paid to do nothing, don't even go there.
I haven't mentioned what it costs us to be asset-stripped like this, nor have I mentioned immigration, nor the risk to our security if control of our armed forces is passed to Brussels or Germany.
The way companies abuse the EU commercial assistance system is not doing the EU, Britain or any other country any favours. It has massive loopholes that are simply exploited and no-one in Brussels has the wit nor sense to change it. Change in the EU is slow at best and in most cases, next to impossible due to the intense lobbying by companies with a vested interest in abusing this very broken system. I know Margaret Thatcher was not many people's favourite person, but she did get a number of measures agreed that have now been completely eroded and sadly, by her own party. Mr Junker has said that any more 'special status' for Britain will be difficult and will face legal challenges. In other words, we will not get most of them, if any.
If the EU may break up in the event of Britain voting to leave as suggested by both leaders of the Bundesbank and European Central Bank, then in all honesty, we have as a nation been propping up a failed system for too long, It will probably fail anyway, taking anyone still 'in' with it. Thus, this vote you have is not exactly 'remain' or 'leave', it is more an issue of jumping off the sinking ship while we have a chance to swim ashore now, or waiting till it is in really deep water and going down with it. Either way, being brutally honest, we get wet and will have a struggle. Question is, do you want to survive or not?
Find something that's gone the other way, I've looked and I just can't. If you think the EU is a good idea,
1/ You haven't read the party manifesto of The European Peoples' Party.
2/ You haven't had to deal with EU petty bureaucracy tearing your business down.
3/ You don't think it matters.
Can someone from the 'In' camp just briefly explain how any of the above helps the average UK person?
Have a little look at this:
Pete Giles
June 7 at 9:19pm
·
OK,.. here's a short list of financial and industrial FUBARs from the EU then,.. (it was longer, much longer, but really tough reading. I have however edited this slightly due to those who have asked me to clarify some points. All of it has been fact-checked not only by myself but also many others.)
Cadbury moved production of several brands to a factory in Poland 2011 with EU grant. Despite promising the workforce they would not.
Ford Transit moved to Turkey 2013 with EU grant.
Jaguar Land Rover has recently agreed to build a new plant in Slovakia with EU grant, owned by Tata, the same company who have trashed our steel works and emptied the workers pension funds. They have not yet said what UK plants will lose out.
Peugeot closed its Ryton (was Rootes Group) plant and moved production to Slovakia with EU grant. That move was not wanted by Peugeot, it was forced on them by EU blundering and cost then dearly.
British Army's new Ajax fighting vehicles to be built in Spain using Swedish steel at the request of the EU to support jobs in Spain with EU grant, rather than Wales. (Just assembly. They could have been built entirely in Wales with British steel, ah Tata, maybe not then.)
Dyson gone to Malaysia, with an EU loan. (I didn't believe this till I checked Financial Times)
Crown Closures, Bournemouth (Was METAL BOX), gone to Poland with EU grant, once employed 1,200.
M&S manufacturing gone to far east with EU loan.
Hornby models gone. In fact all toys and models now gone from UK along with the patents all with with EU grants.
Gillette gone to eastern Europe with EU grant.
Texas Instruments Greenock gone to Germany with EU grant.
Indesit at Bodelwyddan Wales gone with EU grant.
Sekisui Alveo said production at its Merthyr Tydfil Industrial Park foam plant will relocate production to Roermond in the Netherlands, with EU funding.
Hoover Merthyr factory moved out of UK to Czech Republic and the Far East by Italian company Candy with EU backing.
ICI integration into Holland’s AkzoNobel with EU bank loan and within days of the merger, several factories in the UK, were closed, eliminating 3,500 jobs
Boots sold to Italians Stefano Pessina who have based their HQ in Switzerland to avoid tax to the tune of £80 million a year, using an EU loan for the purchase. (Now sold on again)
JDS Uniphase run by two Dutch men, bought up companies in the UK with £20 million in EU 'regeneration' grants, created a pollution nightmare and just closed it all down leaving 1,200 out of work and an environmental clean-up paid for by the UK tax-payer. They also raided the pension fund and drained it dry. (Joint CEOs charged with financial trading fraud, insider trading)
UK airports are owned by a Spanish company.
Scottish Power is owned by a Spanish company.
Most London buses are run by Spanish and German companies.
The Hinkley Point C nuclear power station to be built by French company EDF, part owned by the French government, using cheap Chinese steel that has catastrophically failed in other nuclear installations. Now EDF say the costs will be double or more and it will be very late even if it does come online.
Swindon was once our producer of rail locomotives and rolling stock. Not any more, it's Bombardier in Derby and due to their losses in the aviation market, that could see the end of the British railways manufacturing altogether even though Bombardier had EU grants to keep Derby going which they diverted to their loss-making aviation side in Canada. New trains contract awarded to German company.
39% of British invention patents have been passed to foreign companies, many of them in the EU
The Mini cars that Cameron stood in front of as an example of British engineering, are built by BMW mostly in Holland and Austria and those parts assembled in the UK. His campaign bus was made in Germany even though we have Plaxton, Optare, Bluebird, Dennis etc., in the UK. The bicycle for the Greens was made in the far east, not by Raleigh UK but then they are probably going to move to the Netherlands too as they have said recently.
Anyone who thinks the EU is good for British industry or any other business simply hasn't paid attention to what has been systematically asset-stripped from the UK. Name me one major technology company still running in the UK, I used to contract out to many, then the work just dried up as they were sold off to companies from France, Germany, Holland, Belgium, etc., and now we don't even teach electronic technology for technicians any more, due to EU regulations.
Yes some companies are in the UK with EU funding, but have you noticed that many, like Tata, are planning to shift the production away again, as soon as they will not have to pay a penalty to the EU for doing so. Hundreds already did, just using British skills to develop products and then opt for lower labour costs, often with a serious loss in quality too like Bosch alternators. Many employ staff only on a part-time basis, minimum wage and even those sent by DWP to work for nothing, those get just their benefits.
I haven't detailed our non-existent fishing industry the EU paid to destroy, nor the farmers being paid NOT to produce food they could sell for more than they get paid to do nothing, don't even go there.
I haven't mentioned what it costs us to be asset-stripped like this, nor have I mentioned immigration, nor the risk to our security if control of our armed forces is passed to Brussels or Germany.
The way companies abuse the EU commercial assistance system is not doing the EU, Britain or any other country any favours. It has massive loopholes that are simply exploited and no-one in Brussels has the wit nor sense to change it. Change in the EU is slow at best and in most cases, next to impossible due to the intense lobbying by companies with a vested interest in abusing this very broken system. I know Margaret Thatcher was not many people's favourite person, but she did get a number of measures agreed that have now been completely eroded and sadly, by her own party. Mr Junker has said that any more 'special status' for Britain will be difficult and will face legal challenges. In other words, we will not get most of them, if any.
If the EU may break up in the event of Britain voting to leave as suggested by both leaders of the Bundesbank and European Central Bank, then in all honesty, we have as a nation been propping up a failed system for too long, It will probably fail anyway, taking anyone still 'in' with it. Thus, this vote you have is not exactly 'remain' or 'leave', it is more an issue of jumping off the sinking ship while we have a chance to swim ashore now, or waiting till it is in really deep water and going down with it. Either way, being brutally honest, we get wet and will have a struggle. Question is, do you want to survive or not?
Find something that's gone the other way, I've looked and I just can't. If you think the EU is a good idea,
1/ You haven't read the party manifesto of The European Peoples' Party.
2/ You haven't had to deal with EU petty bureaucracy tearing your business down.
3/ You don't think it matters.
Can someone from the 'In' camp just briefly explain how any of the above helps the average UK person?
Upvote
0
D
Deleted member 59730
Perhaps you can explain how being outside the EU will help the British Government change things?
If we leave we will have no say whatsoever in changing the system and foreign governments will have even greater freedom to poach industry from the UK.
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D
Deleted member 226268
We could block this invasion for a start.....
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/672563/Turkey-EU-Britain-exclusive-poll-crime-figures-Turks
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S
ShirleyM
That may be true, but at least it won't be OUR money being used to take jobs away from the UK. We would be better investing money in small UK businesses, that don't have HQ's in Luxemburg. Big business will always go where the bribes are biggest. They'll leave Poland (for example) if they get a better offer elsewhere, and it will go round and round with taxpayers money being used but ending up with nothing in the end.
Once we leave, we can give the big contracts to UK businesses where possible, instead of giving them to other EU countries.
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ShirleyM
Even worse, they want visa free entry to the UK.
http://www.itv.com/news/2016-06-12/...h-citizens-completely-untrue-says-government/
I suppose it depends whether you trust anything this government says. The documents have been seen, so who is telling porkies?
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D
Deleted member 226268
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Turkey seems to be doing all right too.........
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...dealing-with-european-migration-a6753861.html
Why is all our money going to support Muslim countries ??
.
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Ah, that reliable source of even-handed jounalistic integrity, the Express.
Turkey's membership is at least 30 years off and they have to meet a wide range of criteria including economic ones that would likely reduce the desire for migration. Even if they meet all the criteria before then, we still have the opportunity to veto their membership. At least we have while we're in the EU...
Nothing like a bit of xenophobia and misinformation to drive a campaign though, ey?
All of our money isn't going to support Muslim countries. Hope that answers your overly-simplistic but remarkably xenophobic question.
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D
Deleted member 59730
And you are the expert with no experience. All businesses, including small ones, need markets. It just happens that we have a great big one right on our doorstep. By your reasoning we should make a living by taking in each others washing.
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Our money isn't being used to take jobs away from the UK. Also, if you're concerned about tax havens in Luxembourg etc, then you're going to be disappointed when we leave the EU...
You then seem to have a belief that we can leave, our economy is unaffected (it won't be), and the businesses that have spent decades setting up their systems, logistics, regulation adherances, employment contracts, infrastructure, financing, etc. can just substitute British labour, locations, logistics, financing, etc. overnight?
That's completely unfeasible and a childishly simplistic view of how business works.
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D
Deleted member 59730
For made up stories this beats most.
“If Turkey becomes a full member of the EU,and Britain remains in the EU, would you, or any member of your family, considerrelocating to Britain?”
Presumambly you don't understand the word "IF".
Anyway we already have Turks in the UK. One with Turkish roots is Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson. Who is causing more damage to the British economy everyday.
I know he is really American and only gave up that citizenship for tax reasons very recently.
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D
Deleted member 226268
Ah, that reliable source of even-handed jounalistic integrity, the Express.
Turkey's membership is at least 30 years off and they have to meet a wide range of criteria including economic ones that would likely reduce the desire for migration. Even if they meet all the criteria before then, we still have the opportunity to veto their membership. At least we have while we're in the EU...
Nothing like a bit of xenophobia and misinformation to drive a campaign though, ey?
All of our money isn't going to support Muslim countries. Hope that answers your overly-simplistic but remarkably xenophobic question.
============
Overly-simplistic but remarkably xenophobic ....... Is it true, or is it not true ?
Pakistan - £351million
Ethiopia - £334million
Nigeria - £253million
Syria - £201million
Bangladesh - £157million
India - £150million (which has its own space program)
And we have recently given Turkey £300 million in a futile effort to keep their people from coming here.
A bribe.
Does not matter if Turkey the Country becomes a member or not, this year or in 30 years, veto'd membership or not .....
It is all irrelevant.
The residents will all be coming here to Europe anyway.
One way or another.
They have already over-run Greece....So they are in,
and we cannot send them back.
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D
Deleted member 226268
How can this story be made up ?
Here it is, right from the Dog's mouth. >>>>
Foreign Office Minister James Duddridge said: “These figures reveal the huge pressure our public services will come under if we stay in the EU.
“We will be powerless to stop millions of Turks accessing our schools, hospitals and housing, who will be attracted to the UK by our higher wages and living standards.
“We are currently sending over £1billion to Turkey to help them join the EU - the only way to stop this affecting the UK is to Vote Leave on 23 June.”
And when they get here, they will start breeding like rabbits.
.....oh, is that Xenophobic ?
.
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ShirleyM
We'll still have that market, but we won't have to sell our souls to trade there. If our trade with the USA meant we gave them the right to govern our country, and insisted on free movement of people, I would tell them to get lost, too.
We'll still be better off under WTO tariffs.
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Bit of a Dog's breakfast.
Yes we will be powerless to stop any Turks coming to the UK IF Turkey joins the EU.
Turkey will not join the EU for the next 30 years, so why does this matter?
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Indeed, though the EU is negotiating TTIP that will effectively give American corporations the right to govern the UK.
Another reason to leave.
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Yes, indeed. But in reality it's 5% of UK businesses that export to the EU. Don't know what the figure is for the rest of the world.
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ShirleyM
Ah, just like the Remainers. Ad hominem attacks because you have no real argument.
If the EU had been more democratic, and less greedy, and a bit more realistic over long term aims and .... (etc. etc. etc.) ... then we, and other EU countries wouldn't be so unhappy and desperate to leave.
I am sorry you will have to do a little more work, but the cost of making your life a little easier is just too high and affects every person in the country, and when I say cost, I don't just mean in monetary terms.
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D
Deleted member 226268
.
It does not matter if Turkey joins the EU or not.
It is completely irrelevant.
The Turkish people are coming here...now.
Through Greece, Macedonia, 20 Greek Islands.
Once they are on Greek land, they are in the EU.....on their way to the UK.
With the help of the Greeks, because they don't want them there either.
Ditto Italy, Switzerland, Germany, France.
Passed along the chain to the UK, Sweden.
Because us suckers are happy to take them in.
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I don't think anyone disputes that.
But the price of that convenience is membership of a political union which gives away pretty much everything to the EU.
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I just want to clarify a few points regarding Turkey:
1). All this talk of visa-free travel is in the Schengen Area only. It's even mentioned in your article:
Which we are not a part of.
2). Janet Douglas, the deputy head of the mission in Ankara (i.e. a person of absolute no power whatsoever in making decisions) said this:
This is merely a single person in Government, with close ties to Turkey, providing an option of "assessing again" the possibility. The use of "assess again" further implies that the UK Government have already assessed this option and declined it.
3). As our cabinet members in that article clearly stated:
This will be our position regardless of what the Schengen Area members decide to do regarding this matter. Whether Turkey gains visa-free access to the Schengen Area will happen whether we remain or leave, so the effect it has and our position on not relaxing visa-free travel will not change.
4). Turkey will never join the EU. Firstly, they are miles away from completing the chapters required. Secondly, the only person within Turkey's Parliament who was trying to push for this was pro-EU Prime Minister Ahmet Davutoğlu, who recently resigned.
Third, President Erdoğan is tightening his grip on power in Turkey and signing draconian laws which are pushing the country further and further away from ever meeting the requirements.
Fourth, Davutoglu openly has little interest in EU membership. He is signing powers to tighten his control of the country even at the expense of basic human rights. He even said recently regarding the EU, and I quote, "we're going our way, you go yours".
Fifth, there are a number of EU members which hugely oppose Turkish membership, such as Germany, Cyprus and Greece, and every individual member has the right to veto their membership completely (including the UK if it remains). With public opinion regarding Turkish membership also extremely negative, and eurosceptic sentiment growing, national Governments and the EU would not risk it, despite certain countries making noises about support to maintain relations and diplomacy. Everyone knows that Turkey's ascension is almost a sure-fire way to cause the EU to unravel.
5). Despite all of the above, we do need to continue to work with Turkey and even provide funding where necessary. Why? Because they currently hold millions of asylum seekers from Syria and elsewhere. They are the gatekeepers to that region, so we must work with them.
Plus, if we leave and end up joining the EEA or signing a free movement of labour agreement to maintain access to the single market, we could find ourselves in the situation where we do not have a veto over their membership, but must still allow movement of Turkish citizens into the UK if they do join.
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You don't seem to understand how the Schengen Area works.
The Schengen Area allows passport-free travel between EU states which are a member of it. However, we are NOT a member of it.
Even if Turkish citizens entered the EU, they could move around freely within the Schengen Area (i.e. most of the mainland) but would then hit a brick wall when they try to get into the UK.
As soon as they get to UK border control, whether they arrive from the European mainland or fly directly from Turkey, they will be denied without a visa.
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I also read some interesting survey results yesterday.
In the 65+ age demographic of UK voters, a higher proportion of those are for leave.
However, when it comes to the portion of the 65+ who were alive during World War 2, they are mostly for remain.
It seems that people are more understanding and appreciative of the EU's influence on European peace when they have first-hand experience of the atrocities of war within our continent.
In the 65+ age demographic of UK voters, a higher proportion of those are for leave.
However, when it comes to the portion of the 65+ who were alive during World War 2, they are mostly for remain.
It seems that people are more understanding and appreciative of the EU's influence on European peace when they have first-hand experience of the atrocities of war within our continent.
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As I understand it we do provide significant funding to assist with Syrian refugees, very much more than any other European country. Of that we should be proud.
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