Threat of small claims court

[Toffer]

Good morning all,

We sell oak beams for being placed above a fireplace. These are fairly rustic in character as you would expect of a 6" thick oak beam. They're beautifully finished. In the item description and in the T's&C's we explain that oak beams contain cracks, knots, splits, splinters....etc and that these may develop further once a beam is installed above a heat-source such as a wood burning stove.

On the whole we have very little hassle selling these and the bulk of customers are delighted with them, however......

We have a customer at the moment. She received her beam and sent and email saying:

"There are large cracks throughout the beam, which we are unhappy with"

She sent photos and the beam is completely normal. I pointed out the text to her in the item description and t's and c's where this is detailed and also pointed her to 5 or 6 photos in the photo gallery showing beams with very similar cracks and such. They are custom made by the way so don't fall under the usual cooling off rights.

We've had a few emails back and fourth and she has threatened the small claims court.

I know the bulk of you would say "just take the beam back and give her her money" as I know it will be less hassle in the end but it's the principal of it really. The beam is perfect. She simply hasn't read the item descriptions or looked at the images of what she is buying and now wants me to stump the costs. I have a bit of time on my hands at the moment so wouldn't mind seeing this through simply out of principal.

I've basically drafted an email saying I'm willing to see it go to the small claims court or I'll arrange to have the item collect and will offer a refund less the cost of postage in both directions.

What do folk reckon?

 

[antropy]

I've basically drafted an email saying I'm willing to see it go to the small claims court or I'll arrange to have the item collect and will offer a refund less the cost of postage in both directions.

A refund less postage costs sounds fair to me. Maybe take out the bit about being willing to go to court, although it may be true it might antagonize them. Best not to spend too much time or stress on unreasonable customers, they're just a part of business. Add to the blocked list and move on.

 

[finleydesign]

IN fairness she has the right to return it within 14 days, but let them return it, when they realise the hassle and cost involved they might think again!

 

[antropy]

IN fairness she has the right to return it within 14 days

Seems you missed the bit about it being a custom made product

 

[RogerBa]

Don't wind her up with the "willing to go to court" just get the item picked up and when it's back credit her according to your T&Cs which hopefully say she will pay all the carriage costs, and move on. Even with a bit of spare time I'm sure it's better spent doing other things in the business rather than handling a small claims case.

 

[finleydesign]

Seems you missed the bit about it being a custom made product

Umm no, since when has a lump of wood been a custom made product, unless they ordered it and he grew the tree

 

[Nuno]

I think we can take the OP's word for the product falling into the custom made category. He might be wrong but there is a far greater chance that he is right and someone with no close knowledge of his company, process or product being wrong.

I think RogerBa's advice is good. I know the OP is pissed off and is concerned with the principle. The principle of making more money instead is a good one too.

 

[Feet Warmer]

Don't stick to your "principle" when the other party is stupid and has no brain. Unreasonable people are carrying negative energy that will affect you. Putting on a fight won't do much good to you or your business, even if you win in the end.

Look at this woman from buying on Amazon. She bought Product A, thinking it was Product B. Then she asked for return and full refund and asked us to pay for the return postage. She quoted the reason for returning is "Different from the website descriptions". We asked for details, and she said the material of "MDF" isn't clear enough to indicate is wood product, so she thought it was plastic. She insisted our product description was misleading.

I was angry and told her we would seek for Amazon's advice. If Amazon thought our product description was misleading, sure, full refund and we pay the refund postage; if not, no way!

Amazon's reply was very prompt and affirmative that our product descriptions are accurate. But it also said let it go (of course in a commercial and diplomatic way).

I immediately replied to this stupid and unreasonable woman, telling her, Amazon confirmed that our descriptions are accurate. But we'll issue full refund and we take the product back. End of story.

Reason for me to do this? Because - some people are mean, rude and dishonest. They will be taught a lesson one day. But I don't have time to stress myself with such a low bunch.

That the woman doesn't appreciate the beam means she doesn't deserve the product and she doesn't deserve to be your customer. Bring the lovely beam back and tell the nasty customer to f_x_ off.

 

[Feet Warmer]

By the way, I used to work in the legal profession and I fought against several large organisations for personal reasons. Never lost a case. I took the largest utility company to the small claim court. In order to win a case, you need to thoroughly prepare all the evidence.

Just T&C isn't sufficient, as you need to show your T&C is reasonably written (in line with the industry standard) and you have drawn the customers' attention to the T&C. You need to know some basic contract law knowledge. Contract law is case law and you can find many cases in which small print of the T&C were not accepted by the judge for various reasons.

I think you can win your case, but it'll take you quite some time to prepare for it.

 

[MOIC]

Wood, especially English Oak is characterised by its cracks and knots, due to the age of the trees involved before felling, normally 80 plus years.

You have 3 choices:

1. Write back saying that the goods supplied are as described and if she wanted a perfect wood beam, then she should not have ordered Oak, especially the Oak described in your product specifications.

Send her proof in detail of the description, which formed part of the contract.

2. If she files in the small claims court, contest it.

3. Bite your tongue and offer a refund, less delivery costs incurred.

(Go for option 3)

 

[Alan]

she has threatened the small claims court.

The small claims court process requires that a potential claimant tries to negotiate before taking court action.

Only if that negotiation goes nowhere, the claimant needs to send you a 'letter before court action' stating what they require not to take you to court.

It doesn't sound like she has done that.

However, unless you have time to spare I would just take it back and move on (or offer to send her a tub of wood filler) as one problem with the small claims court for the defendant (you) is even if you win you can't really claim any expenses, definitely not legal expenses, about all you could claim is your travel costs to the court and your time only if you can prove your time costs you.

There is quite a process that the defendant needs to go through, including filing outline defences, and agreeing or not to mediation etc

 

[david64]

I would agree with you, follow this through on principle. Recently I bought a tablet on eBay. I didn't read the description and just assumed it was new from the stock photo, but turns out it was factory refurbished. The average person will probably kick up a fuss here, but I take responsibility for my actions and don't make up stories or throw threats to try and get my own way. However, from exposure to retail, I know there are a lot of people out there with no principles and want other people to take the fall for their mistakes.

Firstly, there is no such thing as the small claims court. There are small claims circuits. When I hear people throw the small claims court threat out there, I am always sceptical they would actually do anything, because they likely know nothing about it. It's just something they've misheard on The Bill while eating a pack of cheese squiggles.

Secondly, ditto to what llocally said.

Third, threatening someone with legal action can in itself be a cause for legal action.

I think FeetWarmer also provides some good thoughts though. I particularly like the sentiment expressed here:

"the woman doesn't appreciate the beam means she doesn't deserve the product and she doesn't deserve to be your customer. Bring the lovely beam back and tell the nasty customer to f_x_ off."

It's like something from a Smith song.

Decent retailers tend to cut their losses on this. However, like yourself, I am someone who lives by principles and if people are allowed to get away with their behaviour, they will continue to do it. So, I would take the action you have suggested, write them an email telling them you will go to the small claims circuit or they can pay to cover the postage. I don't know how the circuit would decide, but if the information you have provided is accurate I can't see her winning in a sane world. And again, if the info. you have provided is accurate and this woman is not mentally ill, she will know she will not win and is just trying her luck.

I run a free website and I get fairly regular aggressive, snotty, haughty etc. emails from people telling me something is not to their liking. It's easy to escalate these, but I always respond in a level manner, if not positive. I'm often surprised in the completely different attitude I get back in reply emails. Sometimes I can even read the trace of embarrassment to their ungentlemanly words. So, I think it is a good idea to make sure your email doesn't contain anything sharp etc.

 

[gibby]

Its a sticky one, yes you are right.
Its worth looking at the bigger picture for your business as all it takes is one customer to post horrible reviews all over the net to do you some damage.
As an example, one of our websites sells shoes. 99.9% of our customers love them and find they wear very well and last year we hit a problem for the 1st time.
One customer complained about a pair wearing through in 3 weeks. We promotly replaced them and she reported the same issue. We got both pairs back to find she had been walking on the very back of her heels, probably due to bad posture and the rest of the shoes were in perfect condition
We refused to refund her and sent the shoes back to her at our cost.
To cut the story short she contacted trading standards who agreed with us and then she went on to leave negative reviews where ever she could.
She also got onto Facbook, friended customers and then started telling them lies about how horrible we had been. She wasted hours of time on the phone too,a lthough we got the impression she wasn't very well.
Weve changed things now and look at what is best for the customer. It has paid off well as quite a few of the difficult customers have become good customers. Some of them havn't but they don't leave negative stuff. Some of them we refuse to process future orders.

One thing we have found that works well with awkward customers, is that we tell them to contact trading standards, give them the phone number and even tell them which member of staff for TS to contact. It stops 95% of them dead from anything further.