Halal Meat in Shops

[That Bates Girl]

I'd be happy if we could get as far as:

"I understand that many of the people to whom these terms refer find them offensive, because the language re-enforces and emphasises the structural disadvantages that they face simply by virtue of being female/gay/black/disabled."

bonus points if you can make the leap from there to:

"because I understand this, and because I respect other people, I choose not to use language that I know contributes to discrimination"

 

[Excel Expert]

KM-Tiger I'm not saying any individual company will stop selling in to the UK - I think that most large companies will continue to trade because all it is to them is extra paperwork and legislation. They will just take on more lawyers and accountants.

The deal between the US and the EU in that BBC link seems to be dealing with things like making standards for paperwork, quality and certification simpler to transfer between the EU and the US - Which in turn will make it simpler for small and medium companies to sell to one another across the pond.

So will we, as small and medium businesses, be disadvantaged compared to our European neighbours? Why would a small business in New York deal with me if it is simpler to deal a French or German business.

What about a medium sized business in the US. Will it set up systems and procedures to deal with EU companies and then a second set of systems and procedures to deal with the UK? My guess is some (not all) will just opt to deal with EU companies unless there is something that is only available in the UK

 

[KM-Tiger]

The deal between the US and the EU in that BBC link seems to be dealing with things like making standards for paperwork, quality and certification simpler to transfer between the EU and the US - Which in turn will make it simpler for small and medium companies to sell to one another across the pond.

Once we are free of the EU we can negotiate our own deal. ATM we are forbidden to do so.

And it should be easier as it only needs to satisfy our needs, rather than the needs of 27 other countries. Singapore, for instance, has a trade deal with the USA. So why shouldn't we?

 

[That Bates Girl]

We run a large trade deficit with the EU, even without taking into account the Rotterdam* effect. Quite simply they need us more than we need them. Do you think the German car manufacturers will want to stop selling to Treasure Island, as they call it, for instance?

Since when did having a trade deficit become a good thing? I run a large trade deficit with Tesco, that doesn't mean I can go and negotiate better prices for myself.

The reason we export more to the rest of the EU than they do to us might have something to do with the fact that the combined GDP of the rest of the EU is more than 5 times the GDP of the UK.

Some more maths:

If we export €200m to the EU and import €300m from them we have a trade deficit of €100m

UK GDP is about €1.9 trillion, which means exports to the EU are equivalent to about 15% of UK GDP
EU GDP (excluding the UK) is about €11 trillion, which means exports from the EU to the UK are equivalent to about 1.8% of EU GDP

In no way does that mean we are in a stronger position to negotiate than they are.

 

[Excel Expert]

I'm not saying we cant negotiate our own deals and I agree that it might be an easier process than doing an EU wide deal. However that is not my point, my point is, is that a good thing?

Say the US sets up a deal with the EU to recognise EU standards, certification and importing/exporting processes. US Companies will set up their processes around those deals. Then comes along the UK to do a deal to recognise British standards certification etc.

Is a smaller US company going to bother setting up two lots of processes when they can get everything from the EU. I doubt it as it costs them money

 

[MASSEY]

Yes, immigrants have affected the economy, and statistics tend to show they have been net contributors - that is they provide more of a benefit than a cost. The supporters of "I'm not racist but..." parties such as 'An Independence For England' and 'U.K.I.P.' like to focus on this mythical "they took our jobs!" aspect but gloss over the larger view of economics - the basics of which include that the larger the labour pool, the greater the demand for goods and the economy grows to accommodate it; the migrants don't exist within a vacuum except for when they pop out to 'steal a job'. That's a far more difficult topic for xenophobic voting blocs to get their heads around when the main driving force behind their chosen party's campaign is fear-mongering. If you want a more in-depth discussion on this, you might consider starting a thread on it rather than trying to wedge it in as a strawman in the topic of mis-labelling of food in supermarkets.

I struggle to see them as net contributors. I can't think of an industry, with the exception of industries where there is an incredible amount of skill or knowledge required, where they haven't started a race to the bottom.

Areas within the UK that are considered poorer, generally the parts of the country where the council still have yet to issue plastic bins instead of bags, are often teaming with immigrants from poor countries.

Historically immigration may have had a net benefit to this country, but i think in the modern era, the now, the table is turning rapidly. The vast majority of modern day immigrants are from poor parts of Europe, the Middle East or have managed to get though our shambolic system and reside illegally.

I would be interested to see how far back the immigration statistics that indicate it is beneficial go. We know ourselves that the younger UK generation aren't anywhere near as hard working as the now older generation are.

Right now, i fail to see how people from poor countries coming here for hand outs or getting a low paid job (which could go to the many unskilled people who have already lived here for years) is of benefit.

Well we would, because you keep raising it. As for the second point, you're absolutely right. Even the leader of your party has said not everyone in it is a racist. It'd be awful if he were being pressured to apologise for making racial slurs during an interview.

He was tired

 

[MASSEY]

We do have immigration issues at the moment, but that relates to numbers rather than race or religion (or Halal meat in Tesco's). That is a separate debate and should not be limited to Muslim immigrants - it should include all immigrants as equal.

I agree.

I think on the builders wages front there is always one key fact that is ignored when these figures are trotted out. The whole building industry has suffered as a result of the economic failures of the past 10 years. Dotted around Cardiff there are a number of major-ish building projects that were abandoned part way through because of the money situations. As a result there is (or was) a huge surplus of people with building skills and as we live in a supply and demand world, fees and wages were driven down.

In my view the Labour government let too many immigrants into the country. They've apologised for it (which means nothing as it's too late now) so even they see some of the problems it created.

With the building and domestic installation sector the influx of Polish workers diminished salaries all over the country. The economic downturn even affected the Polish as i remember reading that a very large percentage of them were packing up and returning to their motherland.

It's simple logic, more workers, same number of customers, more competition, less profit.

 

[MASSEY]

Lets not confuse the issue with fact.

take away scotland and wales where no one wants to live and England has the highest density by far.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Area_a...ependencies_.28includes_non-European_areas.29

Very good Earl and quite right. Scotland and Wales are desolate, barren wasteland compared to England and England is much smaller than many

Take away London, and those of us in the rest of England have more than enough room to stretch our legs.

Look, you criticised UKIP for telling the truth about England being the most populated in the EU and were shown evidence by Earl that proved you wrong, your counter is that we have lots of land to stretch our legs? Yes, but we don't have the money to build all of the schools we desperately needs, hospitals, houses, train tracks etc etc and increasingly, thanks to immigration a need for more prisons.




The prison part was a joke BTW!

 

[MASSEY]

Since when did having a trade deficit become a good thing? I run a large trade deficit with Tesco, that doesn't mean I can go and negotiate better prices for myself.

The reason we export more to the rest of the EU than they do to us might have something to do with the fact that the combined GDP of the rest of the EU is more than 5 times the GDP of the UK.

Some more maths:

If we export €200m to the EU and import €300m from them we have a trade deficit of €100m

UK GDP is about €1.9 trillion, which means exports to the EU are equivalent to about 15% of UK GDP
EU GDP (excluding the UK) is about €11 trillion, which means exports from the EU to the UK are equivalent to about 1.8% of EU GDP

In no way does that mean we are in a stronger position to negotiate than they are.

I think once trade deals for the UK have been set up we'll be far more agile than the EU block and it will benefit us.

In terms of any harm coming to us as a result of an EU exit, use the Russia and Ukraine debacle as an example. What putin has done is disgusting but his punishment will not be fit and proper because punishing him will damage the global economy.

The UK has a bigger wealth and GDP than Russia.

 

[That Bates Girl]

The UK has a bigger wealth and GDP than Russia.

It's not the size of the Russian economy that gives them leverage - it's the fact that they're sitting on vast amounts of lovely oil and gas, which we'd rather like to buy.

 

[Excel Expert]

A few quick and genuine questions on UKIPs ideas on immigration. If I have this right UKIP propose to basically shut the borders for 5 years while they sort out the immigration problem (sorry for the very rough summing up but its late)

Q1 What is the policy of refugees during this 5 year period and then after it?

Q2 Is the idea of a 5 year stop on immigration even possible? It is going to take us years even decades to get out of the EU and to remove ourselves from the various treaties, so until we get to that point aren't we still basically governed by EU rules and quotas. If UKIPs idea is to basically do it anyway what are the penalties the EU can apply.

Q3 What is UKIP propose to use the 5 year period for? I have heard phrases like "we will work on immigration during this time" but what does that mean? It seems very vague - that could be anything from a 5 year think tank to 5 years of withdrawing or not renewing visas so they can be kicked out of the country.

I ask these questions because UKIP has been around for 20 years now with immigration and the EU being their central policies, yet even with the amount of publicity they generate their policies all seem to get wishy washy when it comes to detail.

 

[Excel Expert]

Massey - I dont think that having a more agile trade deals is an answer to the problem I'm outling.

For a US company to deal with businesses in Europe it has to go through all the paper work, the tax issues, conversions of standards and certification etc. All of that requires time, effort and expense by that company. The foreign companies that deal with the UK and other European countries have already jumped through those hoops.

Now if we go independent of the EU those companies are going to have to jump through another set of hoops to deal with British companies. Different sets of tax documents, different sets of tax rules, different customs procedures, different certification and standards etc - the list goes on.

Ok, so now imagine you are a company in the US looking to buy X, Y Z from somewhere in the world. You see its available in the EU and in the UK. Your systems are already set up to deal with the EU. Are we really to expect that company to go out and go through all those processes when he can just get it in the EU with no extra stress. I have my doubts.

For the big international brands I cant see it being an issue, it will just mean they need more lawyers and accountants. For small companies like mine that sell services to the US and other countries it could be a real problem.

Would I be right in thinking if we went it alone it would be far easier for other countries to apply trade sanctions against us? (just random thinking out loud here). If, for example, we annoy the Chinese, they could just impose a load of trade sanctions against us and hurt a lot of UK companies in the process. If we did that whilst still in the EU, could they impose sanctions on just the UK or would it have to be wider (and less likely).

 

[kulture]

Damn you @Excel Expert I have always been a firm believer of getting out of Europe, but your points are well made and disturbing. This is a club we should never have joined, but I can see that leaving it may be worse for us than staying in.

 

[Excel Expert]

LOL - Sorry Kulture, that want my aim honestly. I myself am 50/50 on should we stay or go.

My point is that all these sweeping statements have been made that we can just walk out of the EU as though it was as easy as cancelling a direct debit - its not, far from it. It would easily be the biggest political upheaval the country has seen since WWII - it would be far bigger than actually joining it in the first place.

We, the public, need to decide if we stay or go but we need to do that aware of all the ramifications. Business wise there will be winners and losers if we stay or go.

There are claims that we will negotiate our own trade deals with the likes of the US, which is fair enough, but I have seen no evidence that foreign countries will choose the UK over Europe. While we go through the transitional period of leaving Europe we will be seen as relatively unstable compared to Europe.

As this is the biggest political upheaval we will see in our lifetimes I have to ask myself do I trust the new and very inexperienced new kid on the block (UKIP) to do the job? My answer comes back, not a million years. There is not one person in their party I would entrust to (a) negotiate the deals to leave Europe or (b) to negotiate new trade deals around the world.

That job really has to go to parties that have in house experience of dealing politicians around the world.

 

[KM-Tiger]

Would I be right in thinking if we went it alone it would be far easier for other countries to apply trade sanctions against us? (just random thinking out loud here). If, for example, we annoy the Chinese, they could just impose a load of trade sanctions against us and hurt a lot of UK companies in the process. If we did that whilst still in the EU, could they impose sanctions on just the UK or would it have to be wider (and less likely).

I don't believe so, because we are members of WTO that expressly forbids punitive sanctions. It would be the same that would prevent the EU taking sanctions.

I see your point about trade with the USA. But what UKIP are advocating is leaving the political union. Doing so does not preclude being part of a trade deal.

 

[sirearl]

That job really has to go to parties that have in house experience of dealing politicians around the world.

You mean the very people who have successively been instrumental in breaking the back of Britain.

 

[Excel Expert]

KM-Tiger I cant see us opting out of the political and legal systems, stopping our contributions to the EU and being allowed to ride on the coat tails of any trade deals. The other members of the EU are going to veto that idea in very short time.

Why would a member of the EU who pays in billions of Euros a year sit back while the UK benefits for free?

It doesnt stop three way pacts but we would be short sighted to believe we would get any form of automatic inclusion in those deals.

SirEarl - Unfortunately yes, but I'm not really thinking about the actual MPs. Labour and the Tories have diplomats and envoys that are very experienced at putting together international deals/treaties (MPs just basically rubber stamp their hard work). I dont see that experience within UKIP.

 

[Cobby]

I struggle to see them as net contributors.

Never let the facts ruin a good argument, eh?

He was tired

Yeah, that was a weird excuse. Much like being drunk though, it doesn't change the person, just lowers their inhibitions...

 

[KM-Tiger]

KM-Tiger I cant see us opting out of the political and legal systems, stopping our contributions to the EU and being allowed to ride on the coat tails of any trade deals. The other members of the EU are going to veto that idea in very short time.

In which case let's do our own. Certainly in some respects it would be convenient to remain in the EU, but is losing democracy and sovereignty a price worth paying for that?

And do you want our armed forces to put their lives on the line on the word of an unelected bureaucrat? Look up what the EU presidential candidates are saying about that.

It's highly unlikely that UKIP would form a govt in 2015. The aim is to force the issue of a referendum on EU membership. Let the people decide whether to outsource govt to a body we have no democratic control over, or not.

 

[MikeJ]

It's highly unlikely voting UKIP will get you that referendum. All it will do is split the right wing vote, and give us a Labour led government.

 

[JEREMY HAWKE]

I think even one animal suffering more pain that it should ideally be suffering in the name of some iron age religion about some knob head called allah is one too many. Ideally that would be the stance everyone would take on it, but there are too many muslim sympathisers in this country, clearly.

Fish seem to be a bit of an anomaly when it comes to treatment in the food chain. Even vegetarians think that they can abstain from pork, beef, chicken but munch on as much tuna and what have you as they like.

No mate not sympathisers , Friends !!!! .. I am a pure white Englishman . Our country has become multiculture it happened there was nothing I could do about it and its the way it will be forever !!!
As our time went by in this integration of cultures many of us happened to make friends and do business together . None of the Muslims I have dealt with have ever disrespected me in the way you are disrespecting them here .!! My only critism of the Muslim community is the way they distance themselves from us sometimes but as the young people grown up this will change .

Its very dangerous to confuse extremism with religion and culture. It encourages divisions when people like you live in the past and want to return to days when we all went down pit and worked on the farm .

 

[swankypants69]

I struggle to see them as net contributors. I can't think of an industry, with the exception of industries where there is an incredible amount of skill or knowledge required, where they haven't started a race to the bottom.

Areas within the UK that are considered poorer, generally the parts of the country where the council still have yet to issue plastic bins instead of bags, are often teaming with immigrants from poor countries.

Historically immigration may have had a net benefit to this country, but i think in the modern era, the now, the table is turning rapidly. The vast majority of modern day immigrants are from poor parts of Europe, the Middle East or have managed to get though our shambolic system and reside illegally.

I would be interested to see how far back the immigration statistics that indicate it is beneficial go. We know ourselves that the younger UK generation aren't anywhere near as hard working as the now older generation are.

Right now, i fail to see how people from poor countries coming here for hand outs or getting a low paid job (which could go to the many unskilled people who have already lived here for years) is of benefit.



He was tired

WTF has plastic bags/bins got to do with any of this?

Is this a known phenomena that I have somehow missed out on? How did this pass me by? That if you don't have plastic bins and you just have plastic bags you live in a poor area

I best start looking for a new house in a better area coz once a week I have to put my blue plastic bag of rubbish out!

Did I misread your post @MASSEY ?

 

[Cobby]

In which case let's do our own. Certainly in some respects it would be convenient to remain in the EU, but is losing democracy and sovereignty a price worth paying for that?

And do you want our armed forces to put their lives on the line on the word of an unelected bureaucrat? Look up what the EU presidential candidates are saying about that.

It's highly unlikely that UKIP would form a govt in 2015. The aim is to force the issue of a referendum on EU membership. Let the people decide whether to outsource govt to a body we have no democratic control over, or not.

This rhetoric about "losing democracy" is a convenient soundbite to put against nationalist idealism and is entirely dependent upon your interpretation of how constitutional our government is to begin with.

Our government took us to war in Iraq, under false pretenses and against the wishes of the majority of the public. The EU wanted to put a cap on the 'bonuses' of the very people who are *still* being rewarded for throwing the entire globe into financial crisis, and 'our' government tried to veto it, against the wishes of the general public.

We can toss anecdotes back and forth on the topic, but it's insanely naïve to believe that jumping out of the EU will suddenly make us the paragon of democracy and that the economy will just magically get better.

 

[Excel Expert]

I think there is a fair chance that UKIP have probably damaged the chances of a referendum.

I can see what ever party is in power using votes like this as an excuse to say "Well if people really wanted a referendum UKIP would have won over 50% of the votes".

But that is a total guess.

I dont think there is a right or a wrong on if we should leave the EU or not. There are pro's and con's with either options. So I really hope that Cameron's promise of a referendum does bare fruit and that between now and then there is a lot of education and debate on the pro's and con's so the public can make informed choices.

Re the democracy issue who do we think is at fault there? Is it the EU or are we as the British public at least partly to blame for taking a complete disinterest in what the EU was doing and allowed it to get in to the state it is now?

 

[MASSEY]

No mate not sympathisers , Friends !!!! .. I am a pure white Englishman . Our country has become multiculture it happened there was nothing I could do about it and its the way it will be forever !!!
As our time went by in this integration of cultures many of us happened to make friends and do business together . None of the Muslims I have dealt with have ever disrespected me in the way you are disrespecting them here .!! My only critism of the Muslim community is the way they distance themselves from us sometimes but as the young people grown up this will change .

I have no problem with a multi cultural society per se, but that lack of integration is problematic, and in many instances religion makes it even more problematic.

In the coming years it should improve as the older generation of immigrants who can barely string more than a 'hello' together die off and the government begins to ensure that settlers here can speak pretty much fluently. That will improve tensions and segregation.

I happen to live in a very multi culti area (smethwick) as a result of downsizing to free up cash. It's a bit of a shit hole in parts, but mostly ok. It's a great deal poorer than the area i lived before, with most of the council housing being utilised by immigrants from Eastern Europe and Asia.

Walking the street and overhearing conversations you'd think English was a second language at times, not that it bothers me a great deal.

Its very dangerous to confuse extremism with religion and culture. It encourages divisions when people like you live in the past and want to return to days when we all went down pit and worked on the farm .

I think the general debate these days is more whether or not Islam as a religion is in itself extreme due to the disproportional number of problems it causes in the modern world.

 

[MASSEY]

It's highly unlikely voting UKIP will get you that referendum. All it will do is split the right wing vote, and give us a Labour led government.

My money is on a labour majority at the next election, the tories have cut too much and too fast. Admittedly some of the delay in the economic recovery was down to the European shambles that we, at one point, were listening to every day for at least 2 years on the news

But after Labour fail to cut immigration, one of the electorates most discussed topics, and fail to stand up to Europe or trust the electorate to vote in a ref, we may see UKIP get even more popular at the next election.

It would probably take 10 years before UKIP will be able to challenge the big two parties directly, in my view.

 

[Excel Expert]

Massey - Integration is a two street. Not only do immigrants have to integrate with us we have to integrate and work/live with them. I see them doing more to integrate with us than us to integrate with them.

It is something both sides of that equation to work on - not easy when everyone is talking about there being too many of them. Or when the papers are creating mountains out of things like Halal meat because, although it was slaughtered in standard UK ways, it has been blessed by a religion who has members on the other side of the world that are nut jobs. It is not the way to welcome a community to integrate.

Add to that the vast majority have experienced racial hatred in some form or another.

The non-immigration population of the UK have put up a lot of those barriers and as a result we should work along side the immigration population to bring them down. The big UKIP wins have, if anything put up more barriers.

I think the general debate these days is more whether or not Islam as a religion is in itself extreme due to the disproportional number of problems it causes in the modern world.

Could you explain how the religion of Islam causes us a disproportional number of problems in the modern world? Why do you believe it is the religion and not the dictators or the power hungry that pervert it suit their own needs?

23% Of the worlds population is Muslim and the vast majority of them leave in peace and wish no harm to anyone. If the Muslim faith was a naturally evil force in the world it would not be terrorist attacks we fear, it would be an army.

For what its worth, this is how I see the next few years playing out.

The Tories and the Libs will either be at each others throats until the election or they will call an early election. The Libs have been sent a loud and clear message that due to all the back sliding they did on their own policies, just to have a seat at the big table, they are now basically seen as a waste/joke.

The next election will be close between Labour and the Tories and may even be hung parliament. Which will probably result in either a Labour / Tory coalition or a Labour / Lib coalition. (The Tories wont want to jump in to bed with UKIP under any circumstances and the Libs will not want to jump in bed with the Tories again).

If Labour and the Tories have any sense they will then have a referendum on being a member of the EU. Which would mean big problems for UKIP because either way most of UKIPs manifest becomes null and void.

 

[sirearl]

I suspect the next election will be between Eton and Rugby with the law society coming a close third.

Same old,same old

 

[MASSEY]

Massey - Integration is a two street. Not only do immigrants have to integrate with us we have to integrate and work/live with them. I see them doing more to integrate with us than us to integrate with them.

It is something both sides of that equation to work on - not easy when everyone is talking about there being too many of them. Or when the papers are creating mountains out of things like Halal meat because, although it was slaughtered in standard UK ways, it has been blessed by a religion who has members on the other side of the world that are nut jobs. It is not the way to welcome a community to integrate.

Add to that the vast majority have experienced racial hatred in some form or another.

The non-immigration population of the UK have put up a lot of those barriers and as a result we should work along side the immigration population to bring them down. The big UKIP wins have, if anything put up more barriers.

I agree with a lot of what you say, but i find it difficult to integrate with people who don't speak English

I think the main cause of division in society today is money related and the Eu is to blame for some of that. While the founding principles of the EU are admirable they've had the affect they were trying to abolish - nationalism and resentment.

Admittedly there is still a hangover from the days when people would move out if a black person moved in next door to them, but as the older generation die out i think racism will decline.

The UK is sick and UKIP is the medicine. No one likes taking their medicine even though they know the chances are they'll get better quicker with it.

Could you explain how the religion of Islam causes us a disproportional number of problems in the modern world? Why do you believe it is the religion and not the dictators or the power hungry that pervert it suit their own needs?

23% Of the worlds population is Muslim and the vast majority of them leave in peace and wish no harm to anyone. If the Muslim faith was a naturally evil force in the world it would not be terrorist attacks we fear, it would be an army.

I'm atheist, religion is a barrier to an equal and fair society because it creates a multitude of different problems. When ever i read the news online or watch it on TV it's all muslims this, muslims that and i've lost all patience and sympathy.

Yes that makes me a bit irrational with regards to how i view the followers of religion, but i'm bored to tears with it all and wish they'd all shut their cake holes and stop thinking they have a right to be offended every 5 seconds over insignificant twaddle.

 

[Excel Expert]

I think you will find the vast majority of immigrants do speak English if you take the time to speak to them. They just talk to fellow immigrants in their native tongue - something the British do when the emigrate abroad. Just because you hear them talking in their own language that they cant speak English.

11% of NHS staff and 26% of doctors are non-British all of which have to speak great English yet will no doubt speak in their native language when off duty. Interesting comments by the BMA in the report about how they think the NHS would work without these immigrants, the vast majority of which would be blocked from working in the UK if UKIPs five year ban came in to play.

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/jan/26/nhs-foreign-nationals-immigration-health-service

I dont think in Britain there are many Muslims that get irrational or overly offended by insignificant twaddle. You have to separate what is happening abroad and focus on what is happening in the UK. The vast majority of the negative things associated with the Muslim faith is happening in third world countries dotted around the world. There is very little happening in the UK.

What does happen in the UK is everything Muslims do is multiplied a thousand times by the media and you have to look at the media's motives for that.

With the press it is simply about selling papers and click bait - the vast majority of papers gave up on responsible reporting many years ago.

With the TV they constantly struggle to fill 24 hours news coverage so they will either keep repeating the same story every 10 minutes or fill the air time with a reporter standing outside someone's house reporting on the nothing that is currently happening.

All of this multiplies the negativity about everything and has a huge effect on the way people perceive the world around them. Take for instance crime, in this 2009 report 86% of people said they thought crime was increasing where as in reality it was at a 27 year low.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8368310.stm

Think about how the press reports the economic figures. If there is a downward figure to be reported they focus on it for days, even weeks. If there is an upward figure it barely gets a mention - as a result all that sticks in our heads are the downward figures and we soon forget the recoveries in between.

The reporting on Muslims in the UK is very similar. It is cross polluted with stories from abroad and focuses for days/weeks on protests etc that would only get the minimal of coverage if it was a Christian protest.

 

[sirearl]

All of this multiplies the negativity about everything and has a huge effect on the way people perceive the world around them. Take for instance crime, in this 2009 report 86% of people said they thought crime was increasing where as in reality it was at a 27 year low.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8368310.stm

.

There are lies then there are political statements.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-27226110

Then there is smoke and mirrors trying to convince the public that they are seeing things.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_Survey_for_England_and_Wales#Criticism

 

[Excel Expert]

There has always been a problem with under reported crimes going back decades. Both by the public and the police, but until recent years it appears to have remained a fairly consistent gap between what was happening in the real world and what is reported. Up until about 5 years ago it is safe to assume that the trend is right, i.e. it has been going down since the 90's.

When the economic meltdown hit and the coalition cut the police back, it has become a bigger problem. There is no conspiracy behind it, we just now have a under staffed police force and everyone is over stretched.

Despite those criticisms none of the experts seem to be doubting that crime is dropping as a whole. This is kind of reflected in insurance premiums which are dropping for both cars and houses. That has happened in the face of the big bills insurance companies had with the floods. Are people having less accidents in their cars and homes, I doubt it, that is not something you have a great deal of control over. The cost of claims is still going up thanks to ambulance chasing, whip-lash lawyers. So the only thing left effecting the premiums is dropping crime.

 

[sirearl]

There has always been a problem with under reported crimes going back decades. Both by the public and the police, but until recent years it appears to have remained a fairly consistent gap between what was happening in the real world and what is reported. Up until about 5 years ago it is safe to assume that the trend is right, i.e. it has been going down since the 90's.

Afraid not governments are not going to report rising crime rates if they can find a way to cook the books.

Its inevitable that crime will rise in the UK as various gaps become greater .

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...years-police-continued-say-crime-falling.html

 

[Excel Expert]

All that covers is the last five years where the cuts have been happening where there is a known problems in paperwork and reporting due to staff shortages. None of the authorities involved are expecting to see massive differences after the audit, it is only the Daily Click Bait that is inferring that a crime tidal wave has happened and been hidden from us in the past 5 years. There is no hint of a government lead cover up or fudging of figures either.

The audit people have seen there are questions to be asked and done the right thing. They have removed their status and put a health warning on the figures.

None of which explains insurance premiums dropping for both houses and cars. The number of accidents in the home and in the car haven't dropped. The cost of fixing things afterwards has not dropped (if anything thanks to ambulance chasers it continues to climb). The insurance industry suffered big losses after the floods and yet premiums are dropping and insurance companies are still making healthy profits. That to me would indicate that they are hurting less from crime.

Insurance companies have no interest in dropping their premiums to help any government scheme to help it look like crime has dropped when it hasnt. They are commercial organisations reacting to their own data on crime.

 

[sirearl]

None of which explains insurance premiums dropping for both houses and cars. .

AA insurance director Simon Douglas said: "Legal reforms introduced by the justice ministry to curb organised attempts at whiplash injury fraud coupled with better fraud detection by insurers have also certainly helped put downward pressure on premiums.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-27167164

 

[Excel Expert]

As he said "helped", i.e. it contributed to the drop but it is not the main reason. Not many whiplash claims in house insurance claims though so it didnt contribute there. House premiums are still dropping despite big flood payouts (that would normally mean increases for everyone as the insurance companies try to make up their losses)

 

[Cobby]

I think the main cause of division in society today is money related and the Eu is to blame for some of that. While the founding principles of the EU are admirable they've had the affect they were trying to abolish - nationalism and resentment.

Nationalism and resentment are common themes among a populace during economic depressions - it's human nature. Do you believe the current global economic crises were caused by massive fraud perpetrated between the largest banks and financial institutions in the western world, or do you think it's because of the EU?

Admittedly there is still a hangover from the days when people would move out if a black person moved in next door to them, but as the older generation die out i think racism will decline.

The UK is sick and UKIP is the medicine. No one likes taking their medicine even though they know the chances are they'll get better quicker with it.

Racism will decline as the boundaries between "us" and "them" blur. Gimmick parties such as UKIP offer little to the country but they do try to keep the boundaries of "us" and "them" in sharp focus, which in turn keeps racism and bigotry alive and well.

Also, your last sentence there is inflammatory nonsense and makes the rest of your arguments appear petulant, you should try to avoid that.

When ever i read the news online or watch it on TV it's all muslims this, muslims that and i've lost all patience and sympathy.

Yes that makes me a bit irrational with regards to how i view the followers of religion, but i'm bored to tears with it all and wish they'd all shut their cake holes and stop thinking they have a right to be offended every 5 seconds over insignificant twaddle.

The very definition of a valid opinion is one to which the owner has applied even a GCSE level of critical thinking: "Who is telling me this fact?", "What is their motivation for telling me this?", "Does this represent the whole picture?", etc.

As for the 'offended' bit, everybody does have the right and the freedom to be offended, it's a subjective term and little more than an opinion. You do believe people should be allowed opinions, right?

 

[Cobby]

I think the general debate these days is more whether or not Islam as a religion is in itself extreme due to the disproportional number of problems it causes in the modern world.

That's not the 'general debate', it's the 'Daily Mail debate'. A very, very small number of the world's problems are caused by Islamic extremists. It panders to their readership to misrepresent it though.
What about Christianity? It causes huge social problems in places like America. Is Christianity itself extreme? That's not really reported on that much, perhaps it's not causing problems at all?

A small amount of international awareness is all that's needed to see that, while religion in general provides a multitude of excuses to do evil, the evil perpetrated is for political reasons, not religious ones; take away the religion and deprived and oppressed countries will still be deprived and oppressed, and corrupt countries will still be corrupt.

 

[simon field]

Here's some reading on the subject for you.

Sorry but that is absolute baloney.

Do you really believe that allowing one race to use certain language but not another is conducive to a balanced, fair society? It's exactly that sort of stuff which is divisive and does the 'anti ism' type groups no favours at all in their seemingly never-ending quest to be offended, and provoke offence in others.

It all comes down (IMHO) to context. There's a Bob Dylan song called 'Hurricane' about Reuben Carter, a black American who was framed for murder. One line goes 'and to the white folks he was just a crazy n****r, no- one doubted that he pulled the trigger'.

Should the song be censored, you know, a white guy using a phrase that is 'owned' by black folks?

Pulp Fiction. A really good film, one of my favourites of all time. Littered with the 'N' word. Should Quentin Tarantino be banned?

Where do we stop? Ban jokes? They pick on minorities too you know!

I happen to have a ginger business partner - he's had more than his fair share of abuse over the years - often from random strangers. Know what he does? He gets on with it.

I am not, nor have ever been involved in the slave trade. Neither have my parents or grandparents. Trace things back far enough and you might find some mud that sticks, but should I be apologetic for something someone I've never met before may or may not have done in the past? I think not.

Posturing against 'isms', jumping up and down, pointing and shouting 'look, look, it's racist everyone!' Is one of the worst causes of racial friction I can think of!

A black guy is at the top of the political world, others excel at business, sport, entertainment, ambassador-ness, in all walks of life.

Don't create problems where there are none please!

 

[Root 66 Woodshop]

I've decided to ignore all of the arguing and reply to the matter of Halal meat.

Meat's meat, if you want to eat it... eat it... if you don't... don't!

Doesn't matter to anyone really how it died, really C'mon think about it... it's no different cutting the arteries after it's been stunned as suppose to cutting the neck and letting it drip dry.

food is food simple as that.

Same old, Same old to be honest.

Personally though, I can't see nor justify the slicking and dicing of carrots... those poor lil orange and green cuddly things ... what an utter disgrace



To be fair though, I love meat... Halal, Kosher, Vegetarian... all tastes the same to me. Who cares whether someone's blessed it or given it a prayer... if it's on a kebab smothered in cheese I'm going to eat it!