Shared Drive for office advice?

[Posilan]

Wow, Can't believe you would use a cloud service for this kind of functionality

But this is exactly what you suggested to the OP :|

Sure, not everyone is capable of setting this up, but again, that's why businesses like ours are around - I've read the OP over and over again and I cannot see ANYHWERE that he is after a low end, cheap and chips solution - just one that works, yet a lot of people on this thread seems to assume that's what the OP wants.

If the OP wants a solution he can try to set up himself, he could still go down the Linux route using something like http://www.zentyal.com/ or http://www.freenas.org/ where everything has ben set up via a user friendly web based GUI.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - in the vast majority of cases, offsite storage is not suitable for sharing files on a LAN (the "L" is the biggest clue).

Steve

 

[threenine]

But this is exactly what you suggested to the OP

In all fairness, I did say take a look at Dropboxes, skydrive etc. because that is what had been previously recommended by others. And yes, like I suggested even they are not the optimum solution. However, in our particular situation and as per our requirements that solution provides all the benefits that we need, without the need for internal expertise.

Our overall solution in our workplace, funnily enough is not to use any Internal Servers. We took the decision 6 years ago to base all our infrastructure on "cloud" based services. Our decision to do this, is basically about being Agile.

We are able to literally work from anywhere, and we don't need a massive IT department to facilitate it. The only thing anybody needs in our company is an Internet enabled device! Our infrastructure is primarily based on exactly on the suggestions I have been providing,
so yes essentially I am eating my own dog food. I have also clearly caveated my suggestions, by saying that they are not optimum in all situations, and the OP must conduct there own evaluation of the proposals.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - in the vast majority of cases, offsite storage is not suitable for sharing files on a LAN

You are correct, however I would argue that a LAN does come with some restraints, especially when the OP suggested that they are also considering having
access to thier network remotely, thus sharing of files outside of the office, therefore there is a suggestion that remote working and offiste collaboration is required.

 

Now I would not totally agree with any of these options presented here. Whilst they appear to be solutions to problems, , they all have very dire consequences for your business.

Buying a Second Hand PC from ebay for £40, as your main file server? Really? Why would anyone ever think this is a great idea? It may be cheap, but it's going to cost you big money in the end!
Sadly this is typical of the advice that is generated by the £400 a day consultant.

Using a NAS, this is a great idea, however this could inadvertently cost you alot of money, time and resources to administer. If you have the time and the resources you're ok. i.e. Have a full time IT geek at your disposal. To Deal with Secuirty Issues, Technical Glitches and other IT induced headaches, then this is not the optimal solution

The dropbox solutions etc, all have merit, and are great, but as has been mentioned are not ideal for all situations.

I'd pretty much agree with all of this tbh.

To use a cheap 2nd hand PC to store your company-critical data is tantamount to madness imho. Your data is your business, so if you value it, treat it with the respect it deserves.

If you are looking to start slowly, then look at all the options mentioned, and begin with the one which suits you best. I'm not a big fan of just jumping into Cloud storage without thinking about it a little, and I definitely think to use a free one to store critical data is also a little dangerous. If you wish to move to a Cloud option, then look at moving to Microsoft/Google might be best.

If you want something handy & cheap to share files around the office - then purchase a new machine, they're not expensive. Have it installed with 2 Hard Drives - and back the main shared one onto the 2nd drive automatically. You can use RAID if you like, as suggested, but don't think this is a backup solution alone.

If you need occasional access from outside work to this main server, then maybe something like Logmein or the likes will allow this (if you use this to access an office PC, then you can pretty much see anything you need to).

But ultimately, look towards using Cloud if you want file access from outside the office, and you can phase it in for the important stuff initially.

Only you know what access you will need, so look at the options being offered, and don't jump into anything too elaborate until you find your feet.

 

[Alan]

To use a cheap 2nd hand PC to store your company-critical data is tantamount to madness imho. Your data is your business, so if you value it, treat it with the respect it deserves.

Whilst I respect your opinion and fully understand the importance of protecting data, I would like to ask, slightly tongue in cheek as I originally suggested the second hand PC route, what technically is the difference between a second hand PC, and a new office environment server?

Apart from the newness, because of course, once you turn on a new item there is actually a higher risk of failure, and once it is 'burnt in' it is of course second hand.

 

[Posilan]

Whilst I respect your opinion and fully understand the importance of protecting data, I would like to ask, slightly tongue in cheek as I originally suggested the second hand PC route, what technically is the difference between a second hand PC, and a new office environment server?

Apart from the newness, because of course, once you turn on a new item there is actually a higher risk of failure, and once it is 'burnt in' it is of course second hand.

The simple answer is Server vs PC grade hardware. Server grade hardware is designed for a 24/7 duty cycle, PC hardware isn't.

Other benefits include ECC memory (checks for errors on the fly) and normally higher performance network cards.

Steve

 

[threenine]

Whilst I respect your opinion and fully understand the importance of protecting data, I would like to ask, slightly tongue in cheek as I originally suggested the second hand PC route, what technically is the difference between a second hand PC, and a new office environment server?

Apart from the newness, because of course, once you turn on a new item there is actually a higher risk of failure, and once it is 'burnt in' it is of course second hand.

I hear what you're saying about "new" equipment, and yes there are risks attached to that option too. However, what you're doing is reducing your risk, the likely hood of not finding second hand parts or even new parts for your second hand equipment is greatly increased. Plus, what kind of history has that machine had? Nobody ever gives you that kind of information, has been been running 24/7 for 4 years, or has it only ever had one careful owner, some retired old lady who only switched it on to do her monthly grocery shop?

Buying kit off some cowboy on e-bay, is not really conducive to an effective IT strategy, which is essentially what we are talking about here. It is irespective of kit and options etc. it is more about what your IT strategy is. We can talk about solutions till the cows come home, but they are worth nothing if you don't have an effective IT strategy.

You wouldn't go into business without some kind of business plan and strategy to achieve the objectives in the plan, so it boggles my mind how a business embark on making IT purchases without formulating some kind IT plan and a strategy to achieve those IT objectives!

 

Whilst I respect your opinion and fully understand the importance of protecting data, I would like to ask, slightly tongue in cheek as I originally suggested the second hand PC route, what technically is the difference between a second hand PC, and a new office environment server?

Apart from the newness, because of course, once you turn on a new item there is actually a higher risk of failure, and once it is 'burnt in' it is of course second hand.

Answered in the post above, cheers

My point was really, if your talking about company-critical data, why would you give yourself the potential of hardware failure for the few quid difference it would mean to provide a more robust solution.

I've brought to life many 2nd hand PC's, loaded them with a unix-based OS and used them for data storage, and this can be fine. The OP suggests within their posts that their data is of a sensitive and critical nature, so I would definitely suggest doing something a little more secure.

 

[Alan]

I've brought to life many 2nd hand PC's, loaded them with a unix-based OS and used them for data storage, and this can be fine.

I'm glad I'm not the only one, I have had one test webserver running on a Dell Optiplex for 4 years non stop, without an issue

The OP suggests within their posts that their data is of a sensitive and critical nature, so I would definitely suggest doing something a little more secure.

Just in my defence, the OP didn't mention the data until post 13, my second hand PC route was made in post 2 based on my erroneus assumption that a cheap and cheerful solution was beeing sought.

 

[threenine]

I'm glad I'm not the only one, I have had one test webserver running on a Dell Optiplex for 4 years non stop, without an issue

A test web server is hardly a business critical equipment

We all use our defunct IT kit in some capacity one way or another, I use my old laptops as media servers in the house

 

[LCowles]

I think with respect it shows what the talents, interests and level of knowledge of each of the respective posters are. There are a lot of fair comments, but there is nowhere near enough upload bandwidth on a single or dual business broadband line to attempt to share any files with the internet at great speed. Furthermore a 100Mbps line is actually only capable of transmitting 12.5MB per second (bit vs byte, as networks are measured in bits). Three computers sharing 4 files at 25MB each = 3(PC's)x(4 Files)x(25MB)*8(bit to byte) = 2.4GB which would take several minutes even for these small transfers, not to mention more substantial data-loads.

Desktop hardware would need to be severely underutilized or augmented to approach server performance and nobody seems to have approached the slippery issue of incompatibilities in NAS technology. I hope the OP has stopped reading and phoned a consultant to talk through these realities with them.

NOTATION: The sums above are of absolute peak load, not average load and is representative of 3.2minutes, which, while it may seem fine, would not be a good latency considering a lot has been left out of the calculation (protocol overhead, average seek time, organization etc)

 

[threenine]

I think with respect it shows what the talents, interests and level of knowledge of each of the respective posters are. There are a lot of fair comments, but there is nowhere near enough upload bandwidth on a single or dual business broadband line to attempt to share any files with the internet at great speed. Furthermore a 100Mbps line is actually only capable of transmitting 12.5MB per second (bit vs byte, as networks are measured in bits). Three computers sharing 4 files at 25MB each = 3(PC's)x(4 Files)x(25MB)*8(bit to byte) = 2.4GB which would take several minutes even for these small transfers, not to mention more substantial data-loads.

Desktop hardware would need to be severely underutilized or augmented to approach server performance and nobody seems to have approached the slippery issue of incompatibilities in NAS technology. I hope the OP has stopped reading and phoned a consultant to talk through these realities with them.

NOTATION: The sums above are of absolute peak load, not average load and is representative of 3.2minutes, which, while it may seem fine, would not be a good latency considering a lot has been left out of the calculation (protocol overhead, average seek time, organization etc)

Impressive figures, and kudos to the geekery to get them
However, I would argue that in reality you are only ever synchronising the changes back to the original file. So the traffic is greatly reduced, so yes when when initially uploading a big file to a repository may take a while, submitting changes etc, doesn't!

I would also argue that if you have one file the size of 2.5GB in size, that is one helluva file, and you're probably going to have issues opening that kind of file in any sort of editor! (now the geeks out there are going to jump all over this kind of statement!)

I hope the OP has stopped reading and phoned a consultant to talk through these realities with them.

Totally agree here, probably best not to call any of us though, as we're too busy trying to out geek each other on the internet to worry about their problems

 

[Posilan]

Furthermore a 100Mbps line is actually only capable of transmitting 12.5MB per second (bit vs byte, as networks are measured in bits). Three computers sharing 4 files at 25MB each = 3(PC's)x(4 Files)x(25MB)*8(bit to byte) = 2.4GB which would take several minutes even for these small transfers, not to mention more substantial data-loads.

Huh? :|

edit for clarification: The vast majority of Dropbox clones normally use diff syncs rather than sync the whole file...

Steve

 

[LCowles]

Hehe I have taken on more staff, and should not be sitting on forums all day, but it is a break from the pre seasonal stress and they can pull their weight hehe... Only A few days so that is my excuse, just never actually take any time away from the PC.

Just on the figures though 4files * 25MB * 3PCs * 8(to convert bytes to bits so we can work directly with the network speed, which on the average business Desktop is still 100Mbps) is the full load on the server, so yes it would be a lot, but that is reading from the server not overwriting. Writing should always have 1 person accessing one file in a good NAS, two people will not be able to modify the same document (due to locking).

The server would have to transmit to each PC, unless it was streaming multicast data and to be honest it still does, it just does it in a smarter way... Patching would typically only be for text files (.php files, .txt) I see no mention of this being a digital marketeer, else I would have said online was a must regardless of cost).

Now assuming these are not high-resolution PDF's, EPS files etc, which from the OP on setup I gleaned there is a high chance of. 25MB is a fair size of file, it is larger than an MP3, smaller than a movie or high-res production PSD (remember the Mac, hopefully that is not owned simply because they are so uber cool).

Ah the cost of business in the modern age, I bet that pendrive solution is looking pretty magical right now lol

 

[KM-Tiger]

... Patching would typically only be for text files (.php files, .txt)

No, not necessarily.

Don't know what dropbox uses, but rsync, for instance, uses a binary diff algorithm. It's one of the things that makes it so bandwidth efficient.

 

[LCowles]

If Dropbox really does that then it is the first I have heard, and I am well versed in their API and inner workings of their product, as cloud is one of the core competencies of my consultancy and related development business.

The basis for patching is having a point of reference, so most exe files and binary coded files would produce fairly different files anyway, and copying pars that change would result in severe errors.

Lets entertain this principle, however... Let us consider ASCII stored as binary Microsoft office formats, you could decompress these files (as they are common zips with extra text data stored within), patch the ascii, but it would be a huge undertaking and processing overhead, and I do not think dropbox do that at all as they would need a zip decompressor, something saying that .docx and .xslx etc are zip files, then they would need to extract somewhere out of the user area, then diff, generate multiple patches (as multiple files are involved), and finally apply the patch by unzipping, patching, zipping. It's hardly the path of least resistance...

P.S. I have just checked and dropbox just sent 8x the amount of data for a blank .docx file to create and when I added a single line it re-transmitted more data than the file contained, so almost definitely not a diff process involved

 

[Posilan]

If Dropbox really does that then it is the first I have heard, and I am well versed in their API and inner workings of their product, as cloud is one of the core competencies of my consultancy and related development business.

The basis for patching is having a point of reference, so most exe files and binary coded files would produce fairly different files anyway, and copying pars that change would result in severe errors.

Lets entertain this principle, however... Let us consider ASCII stored as binary Microsoft office formats, you could decompress these files (as they are common zips with extra text data stored within), patch the ascii, but it would be a huge undertaking and processing overhead, and I do not think dropbox do that at all as they would need a zip decompressor, something saying that .docx and .xslx etc are zip files, then they would need to extract somewhere out of the user area, then diff, generate multiple patches (as multiple files are involved), and finally apply the patch by unzipping, patching, zipping. It's hardly the path of least resistance...

From the Dropbox website

Does Dropbox always upload/download the entire file any time a change is made?

Before transferring a file, we compare the new file to the previous version and only send the piece of the file that changed. This is called a "binary diff" and works on any file type. Dropbox compresses files (without any loss of data or quality) before transferring them as well. This way, you also never have to worry about Dropbox re-uploading a file or wasting bandwidth

https://www.dropbox.com/help/8/en

Steve

 

[LCowles]

Well perhaps they can tell me why they not only transmitted an entire file across my network for creation and appending, but they sent more data than there was. You will find that this information on their website is erroneous, just like the statement that "Retina displays have just the right amount of pixels for the human eye" - Apple

Can you not read between marketing bumpf and reality... Seriously I really worry when confronted with this kind of "evidence"

From the Dropbox website



https://www.dropbox.com/help/8/en

Steve

By the way I have no issue with dropbox, I use their service, I just know that you cannot rip chunks out of most binary formats and put them back together like Jenga, unless of course it is a file designed for streaming with chunked format (MS Word, PDF, most JPEGS, Not Fully Chunked)

 

[Posilan]

I just know that you cannot rip chunks out of most binary formats and put them back together like Jenga, unless of course it is a file designed for streaming with chunked format (MS Word, PDF, most JPEGS, Not Fully Chunked)

Of course you can - that's exactly how rdiff/librsync works - we use it to run online backups from onsite Linux boxes to our datacentre all the time.

Steve

 

[LCowles]

webapps . stackexchange . com /questions/26692/when-does-dropbox-delta

also please run a network packet dumper to see what is actually going on. Oh and rsync is master->slave so works completely differently to dropbox, it is not a distributed cloud file system, it is a master->slave file system, try deleting a file from a slave and seeing what it does, this is about as useful an insight as comparing a bike wheel to a car or truck wheel

If you are going to give advice please check it first...

 

[Posilan]

webapps . stackexchange . com /questions/26692/when-does-dropbox-delta

also please run a network packet dumper to see what is actually going on. Oh and rsync is master->slave so works completely differently to dropbox, it is not a distributed cloud file system, it is a master->slave file system, try deleting a file from a slave and seeing what it does, this is about as useful an insight as comparing a bike wheel to a car or truck wheel

If you check, my last post was in reply to your sweeping statement indicating that you cannot do diffs on most binary files, which is just wrong, rather than anything specific about Dropbox.

I am pretty sure though that Dropbox wouldn't post a blatant lie on their website about using diffs when they don't. I've honestly not looked at it enough to be sure either way - I could do easily, but I honestly don't have the inclination.

I use it on a personal level and I've not noticed excessive network usage when changing files. I do however know plenty of people that use truecrypt with it without it having to upload the whole encrypted drive image each time it changes.

If you are going to give advice please check it first...

Nice first few posts...welcome to the forum. I'm sure with more posts like this you will make plenty of friends On that note, "I'm out."

Steve

 

[internetspaceships]

Buying kit off some cowboy on e-bay, is not really conducive to an effective IT strategy, which is essentially what we are talking about here.

Oi, some of us "cowboys" have sold £35,000 EVA SAN storage setups to major news and broadcasting companies "on eBay."

Lol

Hehe sorry but I couldn't resist. Fancy tarring us all with the same brush.

As was pointed out earlier, the OP never said "cheap" - he wanted something that worked.

I don't hold with cloud solutions either. As someone quite rightly pointed out earlier- you should really check if you're allowed to even use them before doing so.