What to do with a 'toxic' employee? (Very long post)

[patientlady]

In essence a BDM opens the door for a salesperson/team to go in and sell.

ha ha but what does the officer do?

 

[internetspaceships]

ha ha but what does the officer do?

Gosh darn I missed that one!!

 

Get rid of him.

Blood Lust, are you even on this planet? "I've run a couple of searches and you're not paying him enough" Really?


Haha. Excuse me whilst pick myself up from rolling around on the floor laughing so hard that I wet myself at that fantastic advice.

OP seriously too there is no hard and fast "salary range" for a BDM. You decide based upon experience and track record.

I'm a Managing Director, what does the oracle say I should be paid?

You're one of those 'fat cat's we all hear about

 

[internetspaceships]

You're one of those 'fat cat's we all hear about

Balls, I just work hard mate. Might manage Sunday lunchtime off this Easter

 

[GreatSEO]

OK from a business point of view I have been in Business Development for 15 years and with a very solid background in telemarketing in many different fields including representing clients I have never found it hard to gain business so I would argue but lets keep the post on track.

Happy to have a chat with the chap and give some great pointers over the phone - for free of course. This will show that she is still keen to help him mature in his career and will also give him another positive input that will not cost her a penny. If your interested just PM me details and happy to have a chat to advise and guide.

The car - fair enough but my point was that within 3 - 4 weeks she had lost her managerial strength to some degree with this employee by helping him above and beyond what was needed within the job offer that he had. Leaning to an employee on a personal basis for help because he cannot afford his loan etc. So to some degree whether it was an investment or not is irrelevant in that factor.

The allowance I can understand but again you stated that she felt his existing suits were good enough so again another movement outside of what was stipulated - I may be wrong here.

It is fair to say that it is easier to hone the skills of an existing employee and probably cheaper to some degree than giving another chance to someone already.

The positives are that he has produced business so I can see where here thought pattern is on that but at the same time a list needs to be drawn up weighing the pros and cons because another 8 weeks with the wrong person in the chair feeling deflated could lead to bad vibes and business not being conducted properly. Not only that but a new head would be great if they are the right candidate for the job so the cost could well be worth it in the long run.

It is imperative that you motivate the employee as a sales person or BDO (whichever is relevant) as motivation in sales is key to results and as a self employed telemarketer motivation is even more important believe me I know from experience and many years of it.

19k with a car, mobile, laptop etc that seems to be being used freely is a great package if the commission is right and also area worked allows for the right kinds of commission.

I feel that this is a suck it and see situation that will need good managerial skills (especially after the history) and will require some thorough monitoring.

I hope this helps

Dave

 

I'll give you that

If I counted up all the hours I've worked since starting up, and worked out my true hourly rate....I might have been better working in Mickey D's

 

[internetspaceships]

SEO the OP has stated he shows no interest in going out and doing his job. Where are you coming from with this post?

You can't make a silk purse from a pig's ear no matter how much you want to.

 

I agree (I think maybe SEO thought I was replying to him btw....I was replying to Internets reply above it), this employee is taking the p1ss, and it will only get worse.

We've all met the like, and we've all tried to ponder getting them to shape up....then eventually got rid after it cost us nothing but money and large headaches. Get rid now while it's easy to do, and look for someone who wants the job, as well as can do it.

 

[Blood Lust]

Hi Bloodlust
Sorry to sound pedantic but he was taken on to increase business, given a company car, laptop, mobile plus bonus/commission. What does a business development officer do differently to a salesperson, I have never heard of one of these and now intrigued

I dont know but the wage website seems to think they are different careers lol

 

[Blood Lust]

Get rid of him.

Blood Lust, are you even on this planet? "I've run a couple of searches and you're not paying him enough" Really?


Haha. Excuse me whilst pick myself up from rolling around on the floor laughing so hard that I wet myself at that fantastic advice.

OP seriously too there is no hard and fast "salary range" for a BDM. You decide based upon experience and track record.

I'm a Managing Director, what does the oracle say I should be paid?

http://www.payscale.com/research/UK/Job=Managing_Director/Salary

It says £29,000 - £100,000 is the going rate.

 

[Esk247]

http://www.payscale.com/research/UK/Job=Managing_Director/Salary

It says £29,000 - £100,000 is the going rate.

But this employee is not deserving of that salary and isn't performing even to 20k levels.

it cannot be said that he is lacking motivation, he's rubbish, end of.

I've worked with sales people. They started at 16k basic and had mahoosive bonuses that let them buy their own BMW at the end of the year. Guess what they did...they got themselves a BMW at the end of the year because they destroyed their targets.

That's sales...if you're a sales person you're a natural, a go getter, you want that bonus and you want that new car sitting on your drive come bonus time.

Any 'supposed' sales person who doesn't have that passion will fail and should be working in another department.

It comes down to this...has the guy paid his way already with sales? is his order book filling up nicely for the next 12 months? if no..he's not on target!

 

[Blood Lust]

But this employee is not deserving of that salary and isn't performing even to 20k levels.

it cannot be said that he is lacking motivation, he's rubbish, end of.

I've worked with sales people. They started at 16k basic and had mahoosive bonuses that let them buy their own BMW at the end of the year. Guess what they did...they got themselves a BMW at the end of the year because they destroyed their targets.

That's sales...if you're a sales person you're a natural, a go getter, you want that bonus and you want that new car sitting on your drive come bonus time.

Any 'supposed' sales person who doesn't have that passion will fail and should be working in another department.

It comes down to this...has the guy paid his way already with sales? is his order book filling up nicely for the next 12 months? if no..he's not on target!

Read posts before replying to them lol

Thats the one for managing director.

 

[internetspaceships]

I can only offer advice based upon my own first hand experience OP. I am not a technical employment expert however I employ 14 people and have been an employer for over 15 years.

I understand this kind of employee. Why? Because I've had some of them myself.

 

[iArtist]

Where on earth does it say they were all sackings?

The story is my version as I see it not the owner's. She has been discussing her concerns with me for a while now and this is how I see it. Don't be so unfair with her. She has 3 other staff who are very happy to work under her, one of them for 9 years, another 2 and the third for almost one. They don't demand any more than the usual random holiday at short notice and they never ask for increases as they are fully aware that she will give them a bonus when one is due. She pays a fair wage for a good job done. She appreciates them and they appreciate her fairness displayed throughout the time they have been in her employ.

Unfair?

Let's see now,

he works his lunch break, does unpaid overtime, isn't getting the bonus/commission advised when he accepted the job

No wonder he's trying to get some 'perks'.

re the three sackings you indicated this yourself in the OP....unless I misunderstand your reference re not wanting to go though the recruiting, training etc. for third time in 2yrs?

It's always good to see both sides of the story because there always are two sides. I'm so fed up of employers who think staff should be grateful for a job. The reason they're being paid is because they're providing a service NOT the other way around.

 

[businessfunding]

Where on earth does it say they were all sackings?

The story is my version as I see it not the owner's. She has been discussing her concerns with me for a while now and this is how I see it. Don't be so unfair with her. She has 3 other staff who are very happy to work under her, one of them for 9 years, another 2 and the third for almost one. They don't demand any more than the usual random holiday at short notice and they never ask for increases as they are fully aware that she will give them a bonus when one is due. She pays a fair wage for a good job done. She appreciates them and they appreciate her fairness displayed throughout the time they have been in her employ.

Can you not see that this all sounds a bit Utopian (ie one side of the story)

Employers by and large are there to earn money for themselves, not on a a hilanthropic mission to create jobs for the community. Employees want the best that they can get.

I pointed out early in the thread that there are 2 sides to the story - in fact what we actually have is a very biased 3rd party story-teller.

I know you are well intentioned, but I am not at all convinced that this will actually help the business owner.

 

[Esk247]

Unfair?

Let's see now,

he works his lunch break, does unpaid overtime, isn't getting the bonus/commission advised when he accepted the job

No wonder he's trying to get some 'perks'.

Is he generating sales? or costing the company money?

It doesn't matter if he dances round a tree naked while singing Abba songs, if he isn't generating enough sales to at least pay his wages (minimum in 3 months) then time to say bye bye.

I'm not saying you have to be horrid about it, but everyone in your business needs to know they are not doing a 'job' they are earning their own wages. If they're costing the company money then in business terms it can become unviable.

 

[Magpies_Nest]

Unfair?

Let's see now,

he works his lunch break, does unpaid overtime, isn't getting the bonus/commission advised when he accepted the job

No wonder he's trying to get some 'perks'..

The lunch breaks and overtime are not on a regular basis and are of choice. Nobody is asking him to do this. Also bear in mind that this 'extra' work is to make up his hours for the four funerals he has attended and didn't want to use up holiday days even though he was carrying 5 over into the next holiday year. He volunteered the overtime in any event.

If you read the OP properly. This employee IS getting the bonus - even though the other employees are not.

Since he started with the company, the bonus levels had dropped and he wasn't getting the £200 a month he was expecting. He said that she had promised this at interview and that it was part of the package. She said that bonuses are not guaranteed and to go and get more work and he would have in excess of £200 if he did what he promised. However, she agreed to give him a minimum of £200 a month bonus but when the bonuses reached £200 plus, she said she would deduct the amounts 'loaned' and once it had been repaid he would see the full benefit.

 

[Magpies_Nest]

Is he generating sales? or costing the company money?

It doesn't matter if he dances round a tree naked while singing Abba songs, if he isn't generating enough sales to at least pay his wages (minimum in 3 months) then time to say bye bye.

I'm not saying you have to be horrid about it, but everyone in your business needs to know they are not doing a 'job' they are earning their own wages. If they're costing the company money then in business terms it can become unviable.

He brought in a contract very early which has since dried up. He revived an old customer but apart from that there is nothing that has made a difference to the company - except that they are making less profit now than they were before he joined - hence the bonus not being there any more whereas it was at the time of interview.

 

[Magpies_Nest]

Can you not see that this all sounds a bit Utopian (ie one side of the story)

Employers by and large are there to earn money for themselves, not on a a hilanthropic mission to create jobs for the community. Employees want the best that they can get.

I pointed out early in the thread that there are 2 sides to the story - in fact what we actually have is a very biased 3rd party story-teller.

I know you are well intentioned, but I am not at all convinced that this will actually help the business owner.

Of course it's one sided - I have said this a number of times in the thread that the opinions are mine and the story as I see it and, of course I'm biased - she is my friend.

I also don't recall asking for help for the business owner, I asked a simple question of opinion - do you think he should stay or be given one more chance.

 

[internetspaceships]

I stand by what I said before.

If he's not actually bringing any business through the door then trade him in for someone else.

There's no need for all this to and fro or some of the complete trash that's being offered. Unpaid overtime, "going rates for BDMs" as examples.

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's probably a billy bullshotter of a guy who talks a good game but can't deliver.

 

[Chris Ashdown]

Whatever she does do not let her give him a warning or months trial as no doubt he will bring up the shoulder problem and go sick and drag it out past the year to make it into tribunal timescale, get him out straight away with holiday pay and all sums owing

 

[internetspaceships]

As Chris said.

Meeting at end of day.

"We've decided to let you go under the terms of your contract. Your notice will be paid but we don't require you to work it. Your last pay cheque will include accrued holiday pay and your pay from your notice period."

End of. No reasons, no discussions. Pass him the letter and escort him off the premises.

Make sure there is absolutely NO discussion or reason given.

Obviously the above assumes that a sensible employment contract is in place.

 

[Blood Lust]

Unfair?

Let's see now,

he works his lunch break, does unpaid overtime, isn't getting the bonus/commission advised when he accepted the job

No wonder he's trying to get some 'perks'.

re the three sackings you indicated this yourself in the OP....unless I misunderstand your reference re not wanting to go though the recruiting, training etc. for third time in 2yrs?

It's always good to see both sides of the story because there always are two sides. I'm so fed up of employers who think staff should be grateful for a job. The reason they're being paid is because they're providing a service NOT the other way around.

Three sackings in 2 years and wanting to sack another does indicate a problem with the job. Either they arent recruiting properly, their product doesnt sell or they arent treating the staff correctly.

What is the businesses service?
How much are contracts typlically worth?
Is the business trying to do stuff on the cheap?

 

[internetspaceships]

Got to ask Blood Lust are you actually an employer?

 

[iBusiness Forums]

I had a friend who downsized by sacking many of his staff. He was left with 2 rogue employees who sabotaged his business, messed up relations with his existing customers and then set up in direct competition with him. The disgruntled customers were only too ready to move their busienss across.

 

[WJP]

I had a friend who downsized by sacking many of his staff. He was left with 2 rogue employees who sabotaged his business, messed up relations with his existing customers and then set up in direct competition with him. The disgruntled customers were only too ready to move their busienss across.

And that's relevant to the OP why? Or are you trying to up your post count?

 

[Blood Lust]

Got to ask Blood Lust are you actually an employer?

I havent owned my own company or worked in management for a small business.

I realise small businesses cut corners that large ones dont and there can be a lot of issues in them.

 

[iBusiness Forums]

And that's relevant to the OP why? Or are you trying to up your post count?

I'm merely pointing out what effect toxic employees can have on a business. Your post was less relevant than mine. Peace.

 

[WJP]

I havent owned my own company or worked in management for a small business

Is that why you've taken to giving incorrect or unhelpful advice on other threads? At least learn the basics before you chip in, bad advice is worse than none at all.

 

[WJP]

Why do they even let him advertise his business forum on here. It's like me advertising one off my competitors businesses

Or knocking on someone's door in the middle of them having building work done, to be answered by one of the builders and saying to him "Oh hi, I know the people who live here are having some work done, have a leaflet for my building company, maybe we could finish it off?"

 

[Blood Lust]

AGREED, if you don't actually know what you are spouting on about then it is best to shut up in my opinion

Who said I dont know what I'm talking about?

I said I dont own my own company or work as management in a small one. That doesnt mean I dont work in management or lack a management degree.

I'm very good in management thankyou.

 

[Esk247]

I realise small businesses cut corners that large ones dont and there can be a lot of issues in them.

Sorry..what..hello..howdy..since when did we start cutting corners? nobody told me

Small businesses have trouble recruiting, if you've never owned a business or managed staff you don't know what it's like. Very good, trustworthy staff are so hard to find, staff that make your business successful..they're rare!

We can only take one side of the story but many of us on here are employers and have encountered sob stories from employees in the past e.g. doctors notes, on going family funerals (seem to be a lot of them around summer time or World Cups).

If you're a business owner you can't take a random day off and not open the shop or be available to deal with disasters...so why should staff be allowed the freedom to come and go as they wish? unless they're making you wealthy of course.

 

[Esk247]

Who said I dont know what I'm talking about?

I said I dont own my own company or work as management in a small one. That doesnt mean I dont work in management or lack a management degree.

I'm very good in management thankyou.

You posted this after i posted

Surely if you manage staff at some level you have noticed that some of them are..just..not good for the company? If you're getting 100% success from all your staff, from day one, then congratulations!

 

[KidMeNot]

Getting back to the thread

My advice is to let this person go ASAP
I've been many years in business and have heard it all (I hope) and this person will not change.

If you think he's tough now, wait until his probation is over and he gets the leverage of possibly claiming unfair dismissal

 

[Blood Lust]

Sorry..what..hello..howdy..since when did we start cutting corners? nobody told me

Small businesses have trouble recruiting, if you've never owned a business or managed staff you don't know what it's like. Very good, trustworthy staff are so hard to find, staff that make your business successful..they're rare!

We can only take one side of the story but many of us on here are employers and have encountered sob stories from employees in the past e.g. doctors notes, on going family funerals (seem to be a lot of them around summer time or World Cups).

If you're a business owner you can't take a random day off and not open the shop or be available to deal with disasters...so why should staff be allowed the freedom to come and go as they wish? unless they're making you wealthy of course.

For crying out loud I said I've never worked in management for a small business not I've never worked in management.

Let me ask does the business have a human resource manager?

 

[Blood Lust]

You posted this after i posted

Surely if you manage staff at some level you have noticed that some of them are..just..not good for the company? If you're getting 100% success from all your staff, from day one, then congratulations!

Most managers write staff off as no good because they dont have the training to realise what the problems are.

I'm sorry to have to point this out but most staff dont come through the door toxic. Toxic staff can be identified by checking their references as there is usually a history of it. Others turn toxic because of their experiences while working for a company.

The fact the business will have been through its fourth employee in two years soon indicates a problem.

 

[Banned]

For crying out loud I said I've never worked in management for a small business not I've never worked in management.

Let me ask does the business have a human resource manager?

A HR Manager in a large corporate, or any manger come to that, will be miles removed from exactly what and how SME's run and work.

 

[Blood Lust]

A HR Manager in a large corporate, or any manger come to that, will be miles removed from exactly what and how SME's run and work.

Usually there are skill gaps on a small businesses management team.

After all if you have 5 employees you arent big enough to have a HR manager, Finance manager, Marketing manager, IT manager, etc, etc

Problems with employees get dealt with by the human resources manager. They have the skills and training to identify what the problem is and to correct it. They also do the recruitment.

Many small businesses are actually toxic themselves although that doesnt mean its the case in this instance.

 

[internetspaceships]

Most managers write staff off as no good because they dont have the training to realise what the problems are.

I'm sorry to have to point this out but most staff dont come through the door toxic. Toxic staff can be identified by checking their references as there is usually a history of it. Others turn toxic because of their experiences while working for a company.

The fact the business will have been through its fourth employee in two years soon indicates a problem.

Seriously. It's patently apparent that you've never had to spend your own money on staff.

If you had, you would be viewing this differently. I fired two sales people last year within three months of joining. The problem wasn't the position or the management. It was the fact that they were rubbish at their job.

Regarding toxic employees. Again it's not necessarily someone else's fault it's the fact that they are just not nice people. Take the guy on the legal thread who blames the world for his own issues as a case in point. Nobody made him that way, he's just toxic.

Finally you really don't need to be "pointing out" employment issues to actual employers when you don't have one iota of experience of employing people yourself.

 

[Blood Lust]

I have a HR manager, finance manager, marketing manager, IT manager etc etc
Unfortunately they are all the same person, me

Ok, are you qualfied to do each role?

More to the point is the owner of the business we are talking about qualified?