PPL Licence

[Andyc01]

My wife owns a florist. She is the sole employee. She has a radio in the back of the shop (make up room) on very quietly to keep her company. The radio cannot be heard in the shop by the public.

A man from the PPL came round and has stung us for a licence saying that regardless of whether the public can hear it, it is in a commercial premesies and therefore is subject to a licence.

When questioned, the representative stated that a person working alone in a home office would require a licence.

This seems rediculous and is yet another cost to a small business that is already under pressure.

I telephoned the PPL and let them know exactly what I thought. I stated that they will ruin the record industry. When asked why i told the man that at the minute, my wife listens to a record on the radio, likes it and buys it and probably the album as well. If we turn off the radio then she won't hear the song and won't buy the album. From my investigations it appears that lots of artists also feel strongly about this and think it is an unneccesary "tax" on people.

Does anyone have any thoughts and does anyone know if we do really need this licence for a person working on their own?

 

[The Legal Mango Team]

Hi,

We understand that the PRS and PPL have been stepping up their enforcement activity over the last 12 months or so.

This article sives some useful hints and tips about how to deal with the PRS & PPL: http://www.hammonds.com/Default.aspx?sID=17&cID=23035&ctID=21&lID=0

Hope this helps.

We're not a firm of solicitors and the above is intended as general guidance only.

 

[Andyc01]

Thanks for the advice. Since my posting we have now had an invoice for backdated payments, even though when I spoke to them they agreed that no backdating would be charged if we paid the original invoice.

This seems really unfair. We even received a reminder for the original invoice before it was due for payment.

 

[Gord]

Does anyone have any thoughts and does anyone know if we do really need this licence for a person working on their own?

If it can't be heard by the public then you do not need a licence.

note: The PPL are not a government body enforcing any parliamentary laws, they are a private collection agency working for a bunch of private companies.

 

[Andyc01]

Gord,

Thanks for this. That is what I thought. The problem is that we can't afford to get in to a battle with them and the legal costs that that may involve. Have you any idea how this might be resolved?

Andy

 

[Gord]

Gord,

Thanks for this. That is what I thought. The problem is that we can't afford to get in to a battle with them and the legal costs that that may involve. Have you any idea how this might be resolved?

Andy

. PM sent

 

[hogattan]

Hi everyone,

I am in a similar situation to the OP. A lady from PPL phoned my shop and asked if we had a radio. I replied that I had one, but employed no staff and it was always turned off as soon as customers entered the shop. I have now recieved invoices from PPL for nearly £200. I phoned them but they are adamant that, unlike PRS, it doesn't matter if the radio is not heard by customers. I cannot listen to it in my own shop without a PPL license and the bills must be paid.

I think this is wrong and do not intend to pay the bills.

Any advice on how to procede would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in anticipation.

 

[kulture]

Pay up, or say that you listen to talk radio only. One WITHOUT adverts and their tunes.

 

[hogattan]

Pay up, or say that you listen to talk radio only. One WITHOUT adverts and their tunes.

Is that correct? Would "talk radio" be exempt from the PPL licence?

Also, the point I was making was that the radio is only for my use. No customers would hear it.

Thanks for the reply.

 

[hogattan]

Also, does anyone know of prosecutions being successfully brought to court by PPL?

 

[kulture]

The radio is used at a place of work, hence their assertion that you need a licence. However PPL is a MUSIC licence, and IF you simply said you had the radio on and did NOT say you listened to music on the radio then how do they know what you are listening to? I do not see how they can justify demanding you pay a MUSIC licence if you do not listen to music. I.e. a talk radio show.

By the way, the way they word the licence it is the playing of recorded music at a business that needs the licence NOT whether the public is present or hear it.

 

[jules12345]

Anyone heard of the Digital Economy Act 2010 - you could be cut off the internet for copyright infringement... Includes digital radios ....!

whooooaaaa spooky..

Probably best just paying the PPL.

Regards
Jules

 

[smo]

Tell them where to go, dont pay the thieving scum a single penny. Them along with the PRS are the epitomy of underhand t*ssers who use threats to force people into buying things which have no legal grounding.

Radio stations pay royalties to artists for playing records, there is NO need to pay again for listening.

Ive never paid a penny and never will, ocassionally they ring up and get told where to go

 

[hogattan]

Tell them where to go, dont pay the thieving scum a single penny. Them along with the PRS are the epitomy of underhand t*ssers who use threats to force people into buying things which have no legal grounding.

Radio stations pay royalties to artists for playing records, there is NO need to pay again for listening.

Ive never paid a penny and never will, ocassionally they ring up and get told where to go

Yes, but have you recieved bills demanding payment from the PPL yet? If you have, they threaten you with court action if you don't pay.

Has anyone else recieved bills and not payed them? If so, what action did PPL take?

 

[kulture]

This is drifting off topic. The OP told the PPL when they phoned that he uses a radio at work. The OP has thus been invoiced.

Now since the OP uses the radio for his sole enjoyment and never has it on when the public is in, personally I do not think it fair or reasonable to have to pay the PPL. It is not as if the music (if any) is being used to entertain the public, or to provide a "mood". This is why I suggested informing the PPL that the radio is used for news and talk shows only. Tell them that music is NOT PLAYED. Thus no licence is required.

There is another thread which is debating the pros and cons and legitimacy of PPL and PRS.

 

[hogattan]

This is drifting off topic. The OP told the PPL when they phoned that he uses a radio at work. The OP has thus been invoiced.

Now since the OP uses the radio for his sole enjoyment and never has it on when the public is in, personally I do not think it fair or reasonable to have to pay the PPL. It is not as if the music (if any) is being used to entertain the public, or to provide a "mood". This is why I suggested informing the PPL that the radio is used for news and talk shows only. Tell them that music is NOT PLAYED. Thus no licence is required.

There is another thread which is debating the pros and cons and legitimacy of PPL and PRS.

I agree with the above 2nd paragraph. But I suspect that if you phone them and tell them that you don't intend to pay because you only listen to news and talk shows, they would insist that you still need the licence.

 

[minz]

There is a lot of copyright free music available, as far as I'm aware they cant charge you for listening to that.

 

[hogattan]

Also, does anyone know of prosecutions being successfully brought to court by PPL?

I'd also like to know the answer to this question.

 

[serasan]

Why don't you stick up for yourselves and tell them where to go.

If you don't play copy write music to your customers they can't charge you a licence fee, full stop.

You must be tough these days and not let people intimidate you.

Long has gone the honest business person, sadly.

 

[tICG]

What about if you are listening via your mobile with headphones on or listneing to an MP3 player with headphones on?

Sounds like they will try to have you for that. Hmmm.

 

[kulture]

I agree with the above 2nd paragraph. But I suspect that if you phone them and tell them that you don't intend to pay because you only listen to news and talk shows, they would insist that you still need the licence.

Of course they will insist. But how can they really sue you for not paying for a music licence if they cannot prove that you have listened to music?

 

[Dorkins]

Although an old post I thought it worthwhile resurrecting this as I have received an invoice and spent hours researching! I have not paid the invoice.
There are a lot of posts about this I am sure well meaning but often factually wrong, the following is based on my findings and my opinions and is not guaranteed to be 100% correct but here goes!

1st there are 2 organisations that you may fall foul of if you play any recorded music by any means at a place of work, these are PRS and PPL, dealing with PRS first as it seems to be the easier and more realistic of the two, PRS issue licences on behalf of the composers and writers of the music, often these overlap (PPL issue licenses on behalf of the performers), I am sure many of us have no problems with business's that use music to their advantage i.e. pubs, clubs even "mood" music in hairdressers and the like having to have some sort of licence that is paid for, the bit that sticks in everybodys throat is when a small business has one person, on their own where no member of the public goes playing a radio and then expected to pay an annual licence fee!
The PRS seem to take a sensible view and consider one lone worker in a private area albeit on commercial premises not liable for a licence, this is as I understand it, on the other hand the PPL take a different view, a bit of background to my own situation, somebody from the PPL 'phones me, starts asking a load of questions on whether I have a radio, how long have I had a radio etc etc now although extremely annoyed I am pretty sure I didn't incriminate myself but an invoice arrives claiming 1 year plus surcharge in arrears and 1 years licence for the forth coming year based on "information supplied by the customer" total £200, I queried this by 'phone and to cut a long story short was told they would listen to the recorded conversation again, something else I was not aware of and yet another thing to query.

PPL are within the law to demand you have a licence to listen to recorded music however it is delivered on any size commercial premises whether it is for 100 employees or one (even the owner) working on their own in the store cupboard, if they use headphones then they cannot demand you have a licence, don't think that "all talk" radio stations will be exempt, they are not because they play intro music and jingles.

A bit about PPL, in my experience I have found them rude, aggressive and arrogant, they claim to be "not for profit" this is not surprising when you look at their own published accounts and see what salaries and bonuses are paid to the top executives, also on their own web site, if you want a smile, read the pages of self congratulatory and back slapping waffle.

My advice is if they contact you by 'phone, say absolutely nothing, do not get drawn into their tactic of creating a heated argument, insist they write to you, they have to prove you have been listening to recorded music, you do not have to defend their accusation and beware of men in dark suites calling!

I would be very interest in others experience with these people, especially if, like me, you have received an invoice and argued it.

 

[gracie24]

Yes I agree entirely .... no small business can afford the extra outlay and you're right about the CD sales etc. I have just been hit in the same way at my cafe, but does your wife know that she also needs a licence from PRS. I only had one and didn't know I needed the other so had to pay for the other licence and a fine for not having it! Like your wife I only played a small radio in the kitchen, I've now decided not to bother as it's not worth the cost.

 

[gracie24]

My wife owns a florist. She is the sole employee. She has a radio in the back of the shop (make up room) on very quietly to keep her company. The radio cannot be heard in the shop by the public.

A man from the PPL came round and has stung us for a licence saying that regardless of whether the public can hear it, it is in a commercial premesies and therefore is subject to a licence.

When questioned, the representative stated that a person working alone in a home office would require a licence.

This seems rediculous and is yet another cost to a small business that is already under pressure.

I telephoned the PPL and let them know exactly what I thought. I stated that they will ruin the record industry. When asked why i told the man that at the minute, my wife listens to a record on the radio, likes it and buys it and probably the album as well. If we turn off the radio then she won't hear the song and won't buy the album. From my investigations it appears that lots of artists also feel strongly about this and think it is an unneccesary "tax" on people.

Does anyone have any thoughts and does anyone know if we do really need this licence for a person working on their own?

Yes I agree entirely .... no small business can afford the extra outlay and you're right about the CD sales etc. I have just been hit in the same way at my cafe, but does your wife know that she also needs a licence from PRS. I only had one and didn't know I needed the other so had to pay for the other licence and a fine for not having it! Like your wife I only played a small radio in the kitchen, I've now decided not to bother as it's not worth the cost.

 

[keat63]

I answered the phone to one thier OP's last week, It was obvious that I had my radio on, he could hear it in the background. Not realising who PPL were, and that we needed a license, I was professional and polite as you would expect, and answered his questions.

Now I have a twist.

We have 2 companies in this building, he asked for me personally.

Theyv'e sent the bill addressed to me, at one of our companies.
And whilst the company theyv'e addressed it to does exist, I'm not actually on the pay roll, for this company.

So can I tell them to get stuffed and get thier facts right. ?

My MD has said to ignore the bill, and wait until they atleast issue court action before paying anything.

 

[KateCB]

Hi,

We understand that the PRS and PPL have been stepping up their enforcement activity over the last 12 months or so.

This article sives some useful hints and tips about how to deal with the PRS & PPL: http://www.hammonds.com/Default.aspx?sID=17&cID=23035&ctID=21&lID=0

Hope this helps.

We're not a firm of solicitors and the above is intended as general guidance only.

The link you give directs you to this: http://www.ssd.com/ No idea what this has to do with PPL?

 

[UKSBD]

The link you give directs you to this: http://www.ssd.com/ No idea what this has to do with PPL?

Itv probably did 12 months ago when the link was initially posted
They have merged since then - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hammonds

 

[savvyshopper]

Hi There

PPL cannot charge you if you are only playing a radio, However if your playing both C.D and Radio then they can.

You will also need a PRS license irespective of what you are playing.

I was in the same situation as this and they tried to backdate my payments and got a collections firm involved. I wrote to them chalenging this. I am not saying to tell them this but how would they ever be able to find out even if it wasnt true. Just say that you have only been playing music in the store for the last couple of months. That way they cant sting you for several years. Write to them saying you dont aknowldge the charge as the datyes arent correct and you are willing to pay the fee but only fo rthe time you have actually been using music in your store. Send this recorded delivery and they will have to acknowledge your letter. They did with me a revised bill with no back dated amount on it.

Hope this helps

 

[KateCB]

A group of us from the General Business forum are attempting to get help with this - Please see thread below leading to this post!
http://www.ukbusinessforums.co.uk/fo...d.php?t=222675

We have asked for our legal forum members to help, but the bank holiday seems to have driven them away for now - all inpput, case histories etc are MOST welcome as are voices and people who actually want to DO something, not just moan about it!

 

[alipali]

Hi I am new to all this! Before paying these bullies I thought I would find out what others have experienced.
I have been reading all your blogs as I recently was sent a letter from the PPL demanding money for a licence and with that letter was also sent a 50% surcharge for not paying the original invoice?!
I too am a florist who works alone and only listens to a talk radio, I don't play cd's or even listen to music radio, I was approached by the PRS and contested their invoice explaining I worked alone and my customers could not hear the radio - they accepted this and said no licence was required.
I then find myself confronted by these very aggressive people from the PPL, who quite frankly are using bullying tactics to make me pay. When they threaten to back date 6 years and court it does scare you.

Does anyone have any advise. I really can't afford another cost on top of everything else. Has anyone else made a stand and not paid? What happened? Thanks

 

[alipali]

Thanks yes I agree with you. Please see my post this morning. I do want to do something about this - massive help to me.

 

[jamiegleave]

Hi
I wonder if anyone can assist with the PPL nonsense. My wife was hit by a PPL representative a few weeks ago. We had the radio on in the background (small pet shop). She gets all the 'licence required' guff and he disappears. Days later the letters start, requesting backdated payments for infringement and the coming year's annual fee.

The radio went off the moment he left and has not been on since (in case PRS come sniffing round looking to cash in too).

The 'debt' has now been referred to Oriel for collection; these look like an offshoot of PPL from their letterheaded paper. My wife rang them up today and said we'd be willing to pay for the duration we've listened to the radio and nothing more. They said it's going to now go legal as 'it doesn't work like that' and suggested we get legal advice.

I would like to the following questions:

1 - The address on all correspondence is spelt incorrectly; does this still make it enforceable at her premises or should we let them proceed with more threatening letters to see them wind end up with egg on their face if I challenge it later down the line?

2 - We've never seen the notes taken by the goon from PPL who wandered in; therefore without being presented with concrete evidence stating she has infringed copyright, we do not have anything that confirms without refute that she has committed an offence. So does she have to pay anything given the onus is on them to prove the offence (which they haven't done in my eyes). It would simply be the PPL guy's word against hers...and how could PPL prove we've listened to it for 1 day, 3 weeks, 6 years???

They're 'repeated attempts' to contact us by phone - which they state on the letters - amounts to a single unanswered telephone call apparently.

Any advice appreciated. She's quite happy to proportionally pay for the infringement period (a few months) but is not happy to pay a year going forward when we have no radio on...and when we know PRS will come knocking as soon as the business is registered with PPL.

Thanks

Jamie

 

[mark dee]

PPL and PRS staff are paid commissions hence the fact they treat everyone like the Gestapo.

In all the dealings I've had with them I've found them to be the most inflexible nasty lot in any line of business.

PPL/PRS is close to racketeering, their staff belong in the mafia.

 

[Davek0974]

Yes, but have you recieved bills demanding payment from the PPL yet? If you have, they threaten you with court action if you don't pay.

Has anyone else recieved bills and not payed them? If so, what action did PPL take?

See my PRS,PPL,WTF? Thread for a long tale. We had received two invoices for the ppl license, just because they conned our telephonist into answering questions that she should not have done. One was a backdated one and the other was for the next year!

I rung them up and said we did not have radio before that day and they instantly removed the backdated invoice, I then asked to listen to the phone recording of the conversation they had with our telephonist, they said it would take 10days. Unless they announced that it was being recorded and for what reason, then they have no proof of a conversation and I will get them to delete the other invoice too.

We are not paying these underhand con artists a penny and we are also stopping our PRS license as that too is a waste of cash. We only listen to public radio and the stations have paid the dues in advance so we are not paying them again.

BTW, the worst they can do it seems is to get you to pay your bill, no fines etc as it's not a criminal case bu a civil one.

Tell them to jog on.

 

[Davek0974]

Hi
I wonder if anyone can assist with the PPL nonsense. My wife was hit by a PPL representative a few weeks ago. We had the radio on in the background (small pet shop). She gets all the 'licence required' guff and he disappears. Days later the letters start, requesting backdated payments for infringement and the coming year's annual fee.

The radio went off the moment he left and has not been on since (in case PRS come sniffing round looking to cash in too).

The 'debt' has now been referred to Oriel for collection; these look like an offshoot of PPL from their letterheaded paper. My wife rang them up today and said we'd be willing to pay for the duration we've listened to the radio and nothing more. They said it's going to now go legal as 'it doesn't work like that' and suggested we get legal advice.

I would like to the following questions:

1 - The address on all correspondence is spelt incorrectly; does this still make it enforceable at her premises or should we let them proceed with more threatening letters to see them wind end up with egg on their face if I challenge it later down the line?

2 - We've never seen the notes taken by the goon from PPL who wandered in; therefore without being presented with concrete evidence stating she has infringed copyright, we do not have anything that confirms without refute that she has committed an offence. So does she have to pay anything given the onus is on them to prove the offence (which they haven't done in my eyes). It would simply be the PPL guy's word against hers...and how could PPL prove we've listened to it for 1 day, 3 weeks, 6 years???

They're 'repeated attempts' to contact us by phone - which they state on the letters - amounts to a single unanswered telephone call apparently.

Any advice appreciated. She's quite happy to proportionally pay for the infringement period (a few months) but is not happy to pay a year going forward when we have no radio on...and when we know PRS will come knocking as soon as the business is registered with PPL.

Thanks

Jamie

Tell them to prove the radio was on! As far as you were aware it did not even work and has since been disposed of. Unless they were videoing inside your shop which I think is illegal, then they have no proof. INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY still stands in this country I think.

These people really are despicable.

 

[Bill Ryan]

If you want to know what information they have, which may arm you with the knowledge of what they actually have, why not do a Subject Access Request under the Data Protection Act.

Might be a tenner (or £20 for both PRS and PPL) well spent

 

[23skidoo]

I don't have solutions, only more questions.
I, like many others, have been hit with 2 years of bills due to a conversation a ppl op had with one of my staff. Her version of the conversation and the actual recording - which I have now heard, are somewhat different.
Initially, after the standard 'I don't listen to music in my shop' rant at them they offered me a revised invoice of £67 for a radio licence. I told them to stick it.
After that came the letter from the 'legal firm' demanding full payment of £400.
I explained that my staff are not allowed to listen to music and we have no radio. He sent me the recording where my staff says that we have no radio but that she might have listened to the odd tune on you tube going back over the last 2 years!! This was unknown to me and against my wishes. At no point however did ppl ask to speak to the owner or manager, they just went straight into their intensive speil, making her pace out the area where the computer was and not giving her time to think.
On the back of that I offered to pay the radio licence but that offer was now off the table. They have told me I can pay the £200 licence for this year but that offer ends tomorrow. I told them I'll see them in court.
I'm based in Scotland and that may affect things but I don't know. I don't want to bite off my nose to spite my face but I also don't want to pay for something I never used.
Would they take me to the small claims court? No mention was made of what tunes she listened to, some are not copy writed. Loathe to pay anything but don't want to end up paying a lot more either.
Any solid advice would be appreciated.

 

[Davek0974]

These people are vermin, that's exactly how they interrogated our telephonist, they should be bought to rights and forced to stop this behaviour.

Although your person admitted listening to the odd tune on YouTube, did they say if anyone else could hear it at the same time? If they wore headphones, which of course they did then no license is required! If it's just one person then no license is required as it's personal use only. If someone rang me and asked me to pace out the office I would have hung up the phone, bloody cheek!

AFIK it's a civil not criminal matter so the worst they can do is to make you pay the invoice, nothing more, but I can't guarantee that.

They seem to give very short payment terms on the invoice and pass it to a factoring company the same day it's printed.

 

[Spearmint]

Where do those in the building industry stand when they listen to radios while they work? It's not very often that you see a builder working without a radio blasting out from somewhere!

And what about the countless number of people that listen to their radios in commercial vehicles?

Peter

 

[23skidoo]

hmmm, may just pay them although I'm going to feel sick about it. Can't really risk it getting any worse. It will be cancelled next year though and the prs can get to falkirk if they come calling.