Thinking of starting my own Coffee Shop

[ecommerce84]

If you do go through with it (or anyone else with a coffee shop for that matter) can you please stock a variety of teas?

Not every one wants a coffee and there must be some good mark up on a pot of Earl Grey at £1.70 (Costa's price). BUT offer some Lady Grey/Assam/Darjeeling along side it. I am usually restricted to just 'Tea' or if I'm lucky Earl Grey.

And a loyalty card is a must.

And I agree about local Art. I'd even go as far as to commision a local photographer to get you some nice pictures of the local area. It keeps people interested and if you're in a tourist town, they will love it. Local Streetscapes, Rivers, Churches, snowy scenes, nice bridges you know the thing.

 

[Cobby]

Why would you want to avoid being near a big franchise? If I were opening a coffee shop I'd want to be close to Starbucks or Costa if possible.

There's pros and cons. A few off the top of my head:

The pros are that you are in an area more people will visit since they'll think of it when they think of coffee/food. You can potentially draw off trade from the chain stores, especially if they have long queues. You can potentially beat them on pricing and almost always on quality.

The cons are (as someone else stated) if the franchise has any local management they can price you out of business. As a non-chain, people will expect awesome service, and you only have to have one member of staff make one mistake and the customer (and potentially their friends) will hold a grudge forever (free vouchers, etc. are a nice idea but in reality it will very rarely restore the situation); the same doesn't tend to apply to the chain stores. If both you and the chain store are busy, people will tend to pick the bigger store.

 

[Lee Jones Jnr]

There's pros and cons. A few off the top of my head:

The pros are that you are in an area more people will visit since they'll think of it when they think of coffee/food. You can potentially draw off trade from the chain stores, especially if they have long queues. You can potentially beat them on pricing and almost always on quality.

The cons are (as someone else stated) if the franchise has any local management they can price you out of business. As a non-chain, people will expect awesome service, and you only have to have one member of staff make one mistake and the customer (and potentially their friends) will hold a grudge forever (free vouchers, etc. are a nice idea but in reality it will very rarely restore the situation); the same doesn't tend to apply to the chain stores. If both you and the chain store are busy, people will tend to pick the bigger store.

Your cons don't stack up.
Costa, Starbucks, Nero, Coffee Republic etc are all price established.
People in the UK, having got used to the way british businesses are run will expect to be served, thats it, good service is not something that is a given in british coffee shops, cafes, restaurants. Offering good service, being friendly, the odd free brownie or cupcake to a face that you recognise etc will be massively appreciated and it is pretty easy to rectify mistakes satisfactorily.
Also, if customers go elswehere because you are too busy - who cares? Maybe open another down the street if things are going so well.

 

[Cobby]

Your cons don't stack up.
Costa, Starbucks, Nero, Coffee Republic etc are all price established.
People in the UK, having got used to the way british businesses are run will expect to be served, thats it, good service is not something that is a given in british coffee shops, cafes, restaurants. Offering good service, being friendly, the odd free brownie or cupcake to a face that you recognise etc will be massively appreciated and it is pretty easy to rectify mistakes satisfactorily.
Also, if customers go elswehere because you are too busy - who cares? Maybe open another down the street if things are going so well.

Prices don't have to change for impressive discount offers to be applied, it happens in lots of sectors.

It's very easy to say that the public are easily swayed by a free brownie and that mistakes are easily rectified; I suppose it's as sweeping as my original point and it's not one hundred percent either way, but on the whole it doesn't actually play out that way in real life. It's very difficult to hold a grudge against a chain business with no person or personality attached to it.

As for busy periods, it's a weaker point certainly but you should always think about how customers react in such situations. If they think you're always busy they may visit the competition instead and make a habit of doing so, if there's no competition then they're much more likely to either wait or adjust their daily agenda accordingly.

You can attempt to second-guess customer behaviour until the cows come home but on the whole it's a pretty grey area. I'm just offering up my thoughts from my experience. As long as you plan properly and really research your options, stuff like customer psychology is more useful for tweaking than building.

 

[Lee Jones Jnr]

my experience

That sounds interesting.
Care to elaborate?

 

[antoinetteo]

Dear Sarah,

As you heard from others starting a coffee shop is a tough business option. I have recently written a special report on "How to become self-employed confidently and successfully" the report outlines the three key areas of decision making that you need to reflect on if you are thinking of becoming self-employed or starting a business. It is based on some research that was done by Cathy Brown, an occupational psychologist in association with Birkbeck College, University of London. If you are being made redundant and really think going solo might be the way forward it might be helpful to you. Please get in touch if you would like a copy.

Antoinette

 

[kerching]

Someone I know works in a coffee shop measuring approximately 4m x 2m in an NHS hospital that is strategically placed in one of the main entrances,
The business takes no less than £500 each and every day,despite a recent increase in prices the queue of customers waiting to be served has not diminished.
The shop sells Tea, Coffee, Hot Chocolate, Bottle water and biscuits.
I have no idea of the overheads involved and what the net profit is, but for what seems a simple business selling hot beverages from a small area with takings of over £2500 a week it looks to be a good business to be in.
Location and footfall is certainly key to the success of this business.

 

[bagelbox]

I'm currently running my own bagel/coffee house... I've found this incredibly stressful and hard work. If I was to do the same thing again, I'd probably do it quite differently and in a different location.... make sure you do enough research and planning first!

We're doing ok and business is picking up now, but its been a painful 8 months. BUT we've had to keep our ears and eyes open to what people are asking for and what they're prepared to buy. If you're selling something that they're not interested in then you'll NEED to be prepared to accept criticism and adjust your business accordingly. We've certainly had to...

Let me know if you want any advice on food, menus, coffee etc. I've been through the pain of it all...

Dave.

 

[partsbypost]

Interesting topic, I was interested in opening a smoothie bar but couldn't get my head around the planning restrictions on renting places, and premises with A5 planning seemed very expensive indeed. What did you do ?

 

[crphillips]

I'd be tempted to move away from the typical rubbish churned out by shops such as Starbucks, Costa, Nero.....etc. They use awful, over roasted beans to give that generic coffee taste.

I buy my coffee raw and roast it myself as i need it. I grind it as i need it. I use a fully manual espresso machine so your fully in control of the coffee you produce. The issue is that you'll need a skilled barista which doesn't come cheap or you can learn it yourself but it's quite difficult. The plus side is you can charge more for your coffee and your customers will come back again and again.

I live in Leeds and when i visit the city centre there's only one place i'll spend my money on coffee and that's a tiny place called Opposite in the Victorian Quarter. It's one of those little hexagon shaped booths but they shift a lot of coffee. They also offer many different types of brewing methods other than filer and espresso. They get their coffee from Square Mile and it's roasted within days of them using it. They don't do any stupid cup sizes.....you get a standard cup....how it's meant to be.

That's the way I'd go if opening a coffee shop. I'd struggle to find any type of passion churning out the usual muck from the big chain coffee shops!

 

[partsbypost]

Offer something of quality thats different to the chains is key to success, doing it at a price that is profitable is the problem, You don't have anywhere near the buying power as the big boys.

 

[baggins]

What about selling high quality chocolates as well ? Decent profit, can be sold as a gift, personal purchase or individually to go with a cup of coffee. Also the personalised chocs for wedding favours is a good market. I'm considering adding a small tearoom to our existing gift, art and craft and handmade chocolate shop - after asking customers and friend s what they would like in a tea/coffee shop, almost without exception, the feedback was they were tired of all the latte/ cappucino thing and wanted a simple pot of very good coffee and a wide range of loose leaf teas - NOT teabags !!! and home baking, not muffins or cupcakes ! also the choice of a mug or cup - a lot of folk said they thought the sizes usually offered were too big.We'd also offer real hot chocolate, and fruit presses. I'm trying to work out if this venture will wash it's face after paying for fitting out, equipment anad the extra staff needed to operate it.

 

[Lee Jones Jnr]

What about selling high quality chocolates as well ? Decent profit, can be sold as a gift, personal purchase or individually to go with a cup of coffee. Also the personalised chocs for wedding favours is a good market. I'm considering adding a small tearoom to our existing gift, art and craft and handmade chocolate shop - after asking customers and friend s what they would like in a tea/coffee shop, almost without exception, the feedback was they were tired of all the latte/ cappucino thing and wanted a simple pot of very good coffee and a wide range of loose leaf teas - NOT teabags !!! and home baking, not muffins or cupcakes ! also the choice of a mug or cup - a lot of folk said they thought the sizes usually offered were too big.We'd also offer real hot chocolate, and fruit presses. I'm trying to work out if this venture will wash it's face after paying for fitting out, equipment anad the extra staff needed to operate it.

Hmmmm.
Do you know of any bustling coffee shops that offer minimal choice in coffee, no lattes or cappuccinos and loads of different teas?
Cupcakes are very fashionable and sell well in the half dozen or so places that I frequent.
I would be interested to see how this venture works out should it go ahead.

 

[IndiCafe]

It depends where the cafe is, who the customers are, and what kind of cafe you want it to be. I've been doing some research in cafes throughout Scottish tourist destinations, and almost every one of them has 30 or 40 speciality teas, and they make a big deal of it on the menu. Cupcakes are definitely getting old, as evidenced by the introductioin of the whoopie pie in a bid to keep the offering fresh.

This is not to say that coffee and cupcakes are past their sell-by date. Many people who are tired of the predominantly bad coffee offerings in the UK are now expanding their repertoire to better quality coffees made using different brew methods (not just espresso).

There's a move towards Artisan, High Quality cafe products.

But if you do it now, you'll be leading the way not just copying others... something some people wouldn't ever have the confidence to do. The 'bustling coffee shops' are usually bustling because they are selling proven offerings rather than new ideas.

 

[baggins]

It depends where the cafe is, who the customers are, and what kind of cafe you want it to be. I've been doing some research in cafes throughout Scottish tourist destinations, and almost every one of them has 30 or 40 speciality teas, and they make a big deal of it on the menu. Cupcakes are definitely getting old, as evidenced by the introductioin of the whoopie pie in a bid to keep the offering fresh.

This is not to say that coffee and cupcakes are past their sell-by date. Many people who are tired of the predominantly bad coffee offerings in the UK are now expanding their repertoire to better quality coffees made using different brew methods (not just espresso).

There's a move towards Artisan, High Quality cafe products.

But if you do it now, you'll be leading the way not just copying others... something some people wouldn't ever have the confidence to do. The 'bustling coffee shops' are usually bustling because they are selling proven offerings rather than new ideas.

Exactly my point, and just what the research I've undertaken has shown. ( I'm in Scotland , too).

And also - this is an add-on to my existing business, not a stand-alone venture. There are no coffee shops or tea rooms near me - the closest one is 15 minutes walk away. I've recently installed a scoop and serve ice cream cabinet for organic ice cream as obviously chocolate sales go down during hot weather - the sales have been massive and it was well worth doing. I believe in altering/ adding to my business model constantly to keep things fresh for my customers.

As you say,the trend for cupcakes is beginning to tire and the people who come into my shop say they would like high quality home baked artisan cakes and biscuits.People seem to really be looking for quality and substance rather than whatever the media decides is 'on trend'.

I think running a successful business is a matter of finding out and understanding your prospective client's needs and then meeting them.

 

[Lee Jones Jnr]

It depends where the cafe is, who the customers are, and what kind of cafe you want it to be. I've been doing some research in cafes throughout Scottish tourist destinations, and almost every one of them has 30 or 40 speciality teas, and they make a big deal of it on the menu. Cupcakes are definitely getting old, as evidenced by the introductioin of the whoopie pie in a bid to keep the offering fresh.

This is not to say that coffee and cupcakes are past their sell-by date. Many people who are tired of the predominantly bad coffee offerings in the UK are now expanding their repertoire to better quality coffees made using different brew methods (not just espresso).

There's a move towards Artisan, High Quality cafe products.

But if you do it now, you'll be leading the way not just copying others... something some people wouldn't ever have the confidence to do. The 'bustling coffee shops' are usually bustling because they are selling proven offerings rather than new ideas.

Who cares about 'new ideas'? It sounds like you want to open the cafe that you would like to be a customer of rather than a coffee shop that will work.
Starbucks made a net profit of £148m in the last quarter of 2010. How did your role models do?

 

[Lee Jones Jnr]

Perhaps Scotland is different, cupcakes are a seller wherever I see them offered.

Good fresh cakes will always sell though, just the thing to accompany a nice COFFEE

 

[baggins]

Who cares about 'new ideas'? It sounds like you want to open the cafe that you would like to be a customer of rather than a coffee shop that will work.
Starbucks made a net profit of £148m in the last quarter of 2010. How did your role models do?

Surely the market place would be a static and boring affair if new ideas weren't tried ? After all - the Starbucks concept was once a new idea...

I think this trend in Scotland might have something to do with the recession/ back to basics vibe that's around just now - sort of less is more.. And afternoon tea is the 'new lunch' here.One place which is doing very well is The Hidden Lane Tea Room in Glasgow - retro,the sort of cakes your granny would have made and vintage china . Super website and going from strength to strength.

Certainly an awful lot of my customers here have said they would rather have a decent pot of coffee, made with a nice blend and served with warm milk in decent china than what has now become the ubiquitous foamy cappucino. Not everyone wants to be part of that bland , big chain experience.

Maybe it's different wherever you're based.

 

[Lee Jones Jnr]

Surely the market place would be a static and boring affair if new ideas weren't tried ? After all - the Starbucks concept was once a new idea...

I think this trend in Scotland might have something to do with the recession/ back to basics vibe that's around just now - sort of less is more.. And afternoon tea is the 'new lunch' here.One place which is doing very well is The Hidden Lane Tea Room in Glasgow - retro,the sort of cakes your granny would have made and vintage china . Super website and going from strength to strength.

Certainly an awful lot of my customers here have said they would rather have a decent pot of coffee, made with a nice blend and served with warm milk in decent china than what has now become the ubiquitous foamy cappucino. Not everyone wants to be part of that bland , big chain experience.

Maybe it's different wherever you're based.

It doesn't sound all that different.
Bettys Tea Room always has a couple of people in, Costa, Nero, Starbucks always have a queue.

Everyone is different, but I'd rather appeal to the masses myself were I embarking on such a venture.

 

[Lee Jones Jnr]

My uncle actually has a similar BTR type place in Retford.

 

[IndiCafe]

Some people are good at seeing the way the market is going, and being adaptable enough to get there ahead of the competition. They gain several advantages over competitors who fail to notice that their products are on the decline.

But others are better at seeing where the market currently is, and doing the same as everyone else. They have the advantage of having a proven and popular product range, but differentiation can be a problem.

There's no right or wrong, they both have their advantages. To think there's only one right way would be very naive in my opinion.

(BTW, cupcakes may sell ok where you are right now, but they are sooo 2009. 2010 was the peak, and 2011 is the decline. By 2012 you'd be trailing the market if you were still pushing them as one of your main cake offerings. Some locations may lag this timeline by a year or two, as cupcakes just came into fashion there last year, but cupcakes are not here to stay.)

 

[Lee Jones Jnr]

Some people are good at seeing the way the market is going, and being adaptable enough to get there ahead of the competition. They gain several advantages over competitors who fail to notice that their products are on the decline.

But others are better at seeing where the market currently is, and doing the same as everyone else. They have the advantage of having a proven and popular product range, but differentiation can be a problem.

There's no right or wrong, they both have their advantages. To think there's only one right way would be very naive in my opinion.

Do you suggest that tea rooms, currently massively outnumbered by coffee shops, are going to take over the market?
What time scale do you think will be needed for the market to make this transition? I don't believe that it will happen.

 

[IndiCafe]

I didn't say that.

Coffee is here to stay, IMO, but the market will change. Green beans are now at their highest price for 30 years, and as the price increase filters through to the end customer they will demand better than the poor excuse for coffee they currently get. So the future of coffee, IMO, is bright as good baristas and cafes will thrive whilst bad coffeeshops will falter.

Some people will switch from coffee to tea. It is becoming 'cool' again. Drinks like Chai Latte allow younger tea drinkers to engage in 'cafe culture'. But there's also a trend towards speciality loose leaf teas, along with the theatre associated with cups, pots etc, as well as a big takeaway market. Without a doubt, the tea market is growing (it grew 8% between 2008 and 2010). If you were setting up a cafe right now, you'd be bonkers to ignore tea.

 

[Lee Jones Jnr]

I didn't say that.

Coffee is here to stay, IMO, but the market will change. Green beans are now at their highest price for 30 years, and as the price increase filters through to the end customer they will demand better than the poor excuse for coffee they currently get. So the future of coffee, IMO, is bright as good baristas and cafes will thrive whilst bad coffeeshops will falter.

Some people will switch from coffee to tea. It is becoming 'cool' again. Drinks like Chai Latte allow younger tea drinkers to engage in 'cafe culture'. But there's also a trend towards speciality loose leaf teas, along with the theatre associated with cups, pots etc, as well as a big takeaway market. Without a doubt, the tea market is growing (it grew 8% between 2008 and 2010). If you were setting up a cafe right now, you'd be bonkers to ignore tea.

Okay. I'm game. I'll open a coffee shop, you open a speciality tea shop next door and we will compare figures after 12 months?

If that really happened do you honestly and truly believe that the numbers would even be comparable?

I'm not all about the cupcake just so you know, but I wouldn't care if it wasn't 'next years must have cake', I would flog cupcakes until they stopped being a good earner, then replace them with whatever happened to be selling then.

I could live with people not revering me for seeing the resurgence of Victoria Sponge 12 months before everyone else.

 

[IndiCafe]

Well you seem to have stopped reading my post correctly. Coffee is here to stay, I said.

How about this...
You open a coffee shop where your primary concern is customer throughput.
I'll open a coffee shop where my staff are all trained baristas who understand coffee.
You sell the same old stuff everyone's selling...big bubbly lattes with a bitter espresso shot pulled in 10 seconds, using 6 month old beans.
I'll roast my own green beans in the coffee shop ever week, give customers completely fresh espresso with a lovely crema on top, or maybe a latte with a nice rosetta on showing the barista's milk texturing skills, and maybe a Tanzanian single origin pourover coffee for afterwards.

You'll think customer's won't want these things, but that's because you're strategy is to do what you think people want right now... but infact you're doing what people wanted a few years ago.

 

[Lee Jones Jnr]

Well you seem to have stopped reading my post correctly. Coffee is here to say, I said.

How about this...
You open a coffee shop where your primary concern is customer throughput.
I'll open a coffee shop where my staff are all trained baristas who understand coffee.
You sell the same old stuff everyone's selling...big bubbly lattes with a bitter espresso shot pulled in 10 seconds, using 6 month old beans.
I'll roast my own green beans in the coffee shop ever week, give customers completely fresh espresso with a lovely crema on top, or maybe a latte with a nice rosetta on showing the barista's milk texturing skills, and maybe a Tanzanian single origin pourover coffee for afterwards.

You'll think customer's won't want these things, but that's because you're strategy is to do what you think people want right now... but infact you're doing what people wanted a few years ago.

The customers queuing at every Starbucks and Costa in the land are idiots like me, the poor fools think that they want what is on offer in every shopping centre and high street and spend their money in blissful ignorance. Bless 'em.
What I'd do is follow my cupcake logic and sell it as long as they want to buy it. When they realise that they want something else, be that in a year or ten years, that's when I'd change my menu.

Don't get defensive sir, I'm discussing not arguing.

 

[IndiCafe]

Since you mention Starbucks, as you'll know their logo and branding recently changed and their latest advertising campaign states that now they are "not just coffee".
http://www.walletpop.com/2008/04/30/starbucks-not-just-coffee-anymore/

If Starbucks have realised that the market has changed, maybe there's a little truth in it.

I'm not being defensive bud... it's all good healthy debate.

 

[DeanCo]

Hi,

I am going to be made redundant in a few months and would love to set up my own business and have my own Coffee Shop - I have worked in fast food outlets before but was years ago and have been looking online to find some help and just wondering if anyone has experience of doing this, how long I will be looking at the planning stage, getting grants/loans approved etc as I will probably have to get another job in the mean time I am guessing.

I already have many ideas on what I want to do and sell, where I want to be located and how I would like the shop to be layed out

Any replies will be greatfully received,

Sarah x

Some information to get you started here: setting up a new business

Also, some very good tax saving tips here: How to Avoid Paying Tax

 

[Lee Jones Jnr]

Since you mention Starbucks, as you'll know their logo and branding recently changed and their latest advertising campaign states that now they are "not just coffee".
http://www.walletpop.com/2008/04/30/starbucks-not-just-coffee-anymore/

If Starbucks have realised that the market has changed, maybe there's a little truth in it.

I'm not being defensive bud... it's all good healthy debate.

Your POV seems to be quite liquid.

Initially when only two points of view were being discussed (best to set up flogging artisan cakes, a simple pot of coffee and loads of teas or cupcakes, range of coffees and what is selling NOW) you seemed to suggest that 'some people can see where the market is heading/some people can see what sells now but is declining' indicating that you think the market is heading the tea room way - but then you changed your mind.
Then you decided that what people want is more delicate, refined versions of what is already available in chains and similar independents. It seems unlikely, as the queues are relentless at Starbucks, Costa Coffee Republic etc, yet the gourmet coffee shop is very much a rare sight.
Starbucks are rebranding so that they can use the goodwill and massive profits made by selling the way that they do and will continue to do, to move into other areas and grow the business, not because they are radically changing the way they operate the shops?

Were I interested in the coffee shop market I am afraid I would be offering what sells now and letting you be the trailblazer. When your visions start to sell, I'd start flogging those instead whilst you move on to what will be popular two years later.

 

[unet]

I have to agree with Lee Jones. Although the market will change its all about jumping on the coat tails of things like work like costa and starbucks. As the market changes the coffe shop simply adapts and includes the special teas etc in its range or simply rebrands and reopens as a tea shop etc.

 

[bagelbox]

Do many of you actually own a coffee shop?

The area I'm in is a little behind the main trends. I sell things that sell and stop selling stuff that doesn't. Does it need to be that complicated?

No point branding your business around a trend... just be flexible and sell what you're able to sell in your area!

 

[Lee Jones Jnr]

Do many of you actually own a coffee shop?

The area I'm in is a little behind the main trends. I sell things that sell and stop selling stuff that doesn't. Does it need to be that complicated?

No point branding your business around a trend... just be flexible and sell what you're able to sell in your area!

Any chance you could point out how that differs to the approach I suggested?

 

[IndiCafe]

Your POV seems to be quite liquid.

Not at all, Lee. I'm afraid you've just incorrectly inferred my meaning and hence my POV... for example..

indicating that you think the market is heading the tea room way

No, I never said or implied that I'm afraid. Coffee and tea can co-exist, and just because there has been proven growth in the tea market and I think cafe owners should respond to this, that does not mean I think tea rooms will replace coffee shops. The 'Cafe' can do them both very well, if it's a good one.

but then you changed your mind.

Did not

Then you decided that what people want is more delicate, refined versions of what is already available in chains and similar independents.

No. I said that as the price of coffee increases, people will want a better quality product. Whilst many people will never stop buying coffee, many people will stop buying from chains if they have to pay £3.50 for a latte and it tastes like baby sick.

It's a little frustrating for me to make what I thought was a clear point only to have it repeatedly misinterpreted and misquoted to strengthen your argument, so I'll bow out gracefully. Was fun tho

 

[baggins]

Your POV seems to be quite liquid.

Initially when only two points of view were being discussed (best to set up flogging artisan cakes, a simple pot of coffee and loads of teas or cupcakes, range of coffees and what is selling NOW) you seemed to suggest that 'some people can see where the market is heading/some people can see what sells now but is declining' indicating that you think the market is heading the tea room way - but then you changed your mind.
Then you decided that what people want is more delicate, refined versions of what is already available in chains and similar independents. It seems unlikely, as the queues are relentless at Starbucks, Costa Coffee Republic etc, yet the gourmet coffee shop is very much a rare sight.
Starbucks are rebranding so that they can use the goodwill and massive profits made by selling the way that they do and will continue to do, to move into other areas and grow the business, not because they are radically changing the way they operate the shops?

Were I interested in the coffee shop market I am afraid I would be offering what sells now and letting you be the trailblazer. When your visions start to sell, I'd start flogging those instead whilst you move on to what will be popular two years later.

I wonder if we're looking at two different ways of fufilling a customer's needs with these two slightly different models ? For example - if I were rushing to an appointment etc , I'd probably grab a take out coffee from Costa, Starbucks etc. If I were having a day's shopping, and wanted to give myself a pleasant sit down and treat, I would definitely prefer the more individual offerings of of a tea room / independant coffee shop. A bit like the difference between lunching at Wetherspoons or a gastro pub. Each can be appropriate at a given time or occasion.

I am in a very touristy area, and most of my customers are in full 'let's have a treat ' mode, so I figure they have the time and cash to enjoy a relaxed afternoon tea /coffee experience in pretty surroundings.A Starbucks type model wouldn't work for me in my current location.

I just remembered the Willow tea rooms, Miss Cranston tea rooms and the one above the jewellers at Sauchiehaul Stree tin Glasgow - they have been going for over a hundred years and are always packed with people looking for speciality teas, home baking and Scottish food. I never escape before spending at least £15 in any of them - a sum Starbucks hasn't managed to part me from yet.

Yes - I think these concepts are quite different to each other.

Also , some self-employed folk may want to start a whole new global chain of whatevers, but there are probably more out there who simply want to have 1 outlet they can run largely themselves, developing it into a worthwhile , sustainable and profitable SMALL business.

 

[Lee Jones Jnr]

I wonder if we're looking at two different ways of fufilling a customer's needs with these two slightly different models ? For example - if I were rushing to an appointment etc , I'd probably grab a take out coffee from Costa, Starbucks etc. If I were having a day's shopping, and wanted to give myself a pleasant sit down and treat, I would definitely prefer the more individual offerings of of a tea room / independant coffee shop. A bit like the difference between lunching at Wetherspoons or a gastro pub. Each can be appropriate at a given time or occasion.

I am in a very touristy area, and most of my customers are in full 'let's have a treat ' mode, so I figure they have the time and cash to enjoy a relaxed afternoon tea /coffee experience in pretty surroundings.A Starbucks type model wouldn't work for me in my current location.

I just remembered the Willow tea rooms, Miss Cranston tea rooms and the one above the jewellers at Sauchiehaul Stree tin Glasgow - they have been going for over a hundred years and are always packed with people looking for speciality teas, home baking and Scottish food. I never escape before spending at least £15 in any of them - a sum Starbucks hasn't managed to part me from yet.

Yes - I think these concepts are quite different to each other.

Also , some self-employed folk may want to start a whole new global chain of whatevers, but there are probably more out there who simply want to have 1 outlet they can run largely themselves, developing it into a worthwhile , sustainable and profitable SMALL business.

No I don't think we are. The discussion is about what is the best way to run a new start up coffee shop. You seem to want to run a place that you'd like to go to rather than the place that is most likely to succeed.
Your sit down treat etc for £15 probably sees you sat in the place taking up a table which would see three or four groups come and go in Starbucks. Also it doesn't sound like there will be many people buying take out.
There is a market for both I am sure, but a quick look around any decent sized town or shopping centre will tell you which market is bigger. I am not really all about appealing to small niche markets, though many people are I'm sure.
Your place sounds nice, I'd go there, I just wouldn't want to own it.
I'd like to buy a Zonda but I'd prefer to own Toyota than Pagani.

 

[baggins]

No I don't think we are. The discussion is about what is the best way to run a new start up coffee shop. You seem to want to run a place that you'd like to go to rather than the place that is most likely to succeed.
Your sit down treat etc for £15 probably sees you sat in the place taking up a table which would see three or four groups come and go in Starbucks. Also it doesn't sound like there will be many people buying take out.
There is a market for both I am sure, but a quick look around any decent sized town or shopping centre will tell you which market is bigger. I am not really all about appealing to small niche markets, though many people are I'm sure.
Your place sounds nice, I'd go there, I just wouldn't want to own it.
I'd like to buy a Zonda but I'd prefer to own Toyota than Pagani.

The thing is - as I have explained - I am not in a town or shopping centre. Yes it will be the sort of place I would like to go IF I WERE ON HOLIDAY , which 98 per cent of my customers are. And as I have explained before also - this is not a stand alone business simply an add on to the existing one, an expansion, if you like, in space I already have that can be slightly re-configured to turn more profit on. I am simply intending to give my customers what they have asked me for.

I f I were starting yet another business from scratch - I would not choose either model as a stand alone enterprise - just not my scene .

It's been an interesting discussion anyhow.

 

[Lee Jones Jnr]

The thing is - as I have explained - I am not in a town or shopping centre. Yes it will be the sort of place I would like to go IF I WERE ON HOLIDAY , which 98 per cent of my customers are. And as I have explained before also - this is not a stand alone business simply an add on to the existing one, an expansion, if you like, in space I already have that can be slightly re-configured to turn more profit on. I am simply intending to give my customers what they have asked me for.

I f I were starting yet another business from scratch - I would not choose either model as a stand alone enterprise - just not my scene .

It's been an interesting discussion anyhow.

Marvellous, let us know how it goes.

 

[martin001]

The customers queuing at every Starbucks and Costa in the land are idiots like me, the poor fools think that they want what is on offer in every shopping centre and high street and spend their money in blissful ignorance. Bless 'em.
What I'd do is follow my cupcake logic and sell it as long as they want to buy it. When they realise that they want something else, be that in a year or ten years, that's when I'd change my menu.

Don't get defensive sir, I'm discussing not arguing.

Problem here is you are comparing Marks & Spencers to Primark. Both are different markets, both are different prices. They could be right next door to each other, but both will do well, because they serve a particular section of the community. - You are both right in your beliefs! - The boss of M&S and the boss of Primark probably think bad of each other? but the customers of each respective shop enjoy shopping there!

 

[martin001]

Not at all, Lee. I'm afraid you've just incorrectly inferred my meaning and hence my POV... for example..

No, I never said or implied that I'm afraid. Coffee and tea can co-exist, and just because there has been proven growth in the tea market and I think cafe owners should respond to this, that does not mean I think tea rooms will replace coffee shops. The 'Cafe' can do them both very well, if it's a good one.

Did not

No. I said that as the price of coffee increases, people will want a better quality product. Whilst many people will never stop buying coffee, many people will stop buying from chains if they have to pay £3.50 for a latte and it tastes like baby sick.

It's a little frustrating for me to make what I thought was a clear point only to have it repeatedly misinterpreted and misquoted to strengthen your argument, so I'll bow out gracefully. Was fun tho

I really want to sit you two down for a chat. Perhaps over a coffee

 

[martin001]

Sarah.

First off I make no bones about having had a failed business, (It's quite well documented on here), but having read this extensive conversation (very lucky to have the input and opinion of so many people btw), I think I would offer some fairly simple summary advice.

Firstly, the indisputable first step is research and planning. Your heart will say "forget that", or "yeah just skim over it", because it will be thinking more on ego, cosey coffee shop, friends coming in and saying "hi" over a coffee etc etc!

So, if it works on paper then its down to quality and service.

Service. This to me is arguably the most important commodity you will be trading in your shop. Everyone reading this post will be able to recall a bad level of service they have received in a food outlet at some point, and in order of priority the things I expect are:

* Fast acknowledgement of me as a customer
* Warm, friendly nature
* Cleanliness and hygiene
* Remember me from last time - make it feel personal like "wow, she asked how my holiday was - I don't get that in Starbucks).

Stamp on any staff that A) Stand around, B) Chat to each other endlessly C) Neglect to keep the place clean at all times.

Some people on here have suggested that there are too many coffee shops on the high street. The question is I think are there too many GREAT coffee shops on the highstreet?

There's nothing wrong in entering a saturated market. Just take a product everyone else is selling, and sell it BETTER.

To me, going to have a coffee is about. A place of refuse, un-hurried and uninterupted. I want to to feel like (in a way) a social / leisure activity, rather than just for the coffee.

Also, make it feel like something different, - like it would be cool to be associated with your shop because its stylish, / chic / whatever.

I'm rambling now, but follow your dreams - I've had a failed business, but I'd still go back into starting another one - It's in your blood and once you have that you can't shake it off!

Hope this helps a little

M