e-stores should be W3C Compliant

movietub

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Nov 6, 2008
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I hope this link works, lets look at web accessibility from a knowledge sharing point http://www.youtube.com/user/BSIBrit...erm=Watch+the+BSI+videos#g/c/D6E9F7CB9CA59E12

I understand my website isn't particularly to the standards which I have detailed in this debate - this is because at present I'm actually going through a development consultation of a new w3c compliant e-commerce website.

This will also be tied in with an accessible APP over all platforms, and the cost of this a mere £70,000.

I can make this evident via private message. If you require the evidence.

You hope this link works?? Well you're the accessibility guru :|

£70k to for a corporate services website? Are you mad!? Websites like that are pretty much the easiest to get working across all platforms.

The current website is unforgivable I'm afraid. The fact you decided to launch with that demonstrates that you are nowhere near sensible enough to invest 70k wisely.

This thing you're trying to push is a joke. Full accessibility is never going to be worth that sort of money for any of us. Even if you could prove a return, it would never be anything like as good as if the £70k were spent elsewhere.

We do use analytics you know. We can tell how many platforms access our sites that may not be able to display or use them as is ideal. And for me and pretty much everyone else I suspect, it's probably 1% or less. And even if all smartphone users could access all sites, most people won't actually make a purchase from their phone anyway - not unless it's iTunes. And that's not even fully accessible yet.

You're either making a lot up, or you're getting ripped off by someone selling you a site that will never yield a return. I hope I'm wrong, but honestly, nothing you have said suggests you are capable of absorbing sensible input or or properly questioning your own point of view. There is no rationality from you at all. Just your opinions!
 
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You hope this link works?? Well you're the accessibility guru :|

£70k to for a corporate services website? Are you mad!? Websites like that are pretty much the easiest to get working across all platforms. Not mad, as I've developed a piece of innovative software (being patented) which adds value. £70K is cheap considering the last corporate services website we had developed 7 years ago cost 100K, but yielded quarter of a million in profits.

The current website is unforgivable I'm afraid. The fact you decided to launch with that demonstrates that you are nowhere near sensible enough to invest 70k wisely. So you can produce what I want and more for less...its my money after all.

This thing you're trying to push is a joke. Full accessibility is never going to be worth that sort of money for any of us. Even if you could prove a return, it would never be anything like as good as if the £70k were spent elsewhere. Pre-launch sales already totalling £525,000...I think I've recouped my £70K investment...don't you?

We do use analytics you know. We can tell how many platforms access our sites that may not be able to display or use them as is ideal. And for me and pretty much everyone else I suspect, it's probably 1% or less. And even if all smartphone users could access all sites, most people won't actually make a purchase from their phone anyway - not unless it's iTunes. And that's not even fully accessible yet. 12 years in accessibility and legislation accounts for nothing then, I think you need further education my friend...If you only knew what is around the corner, it would make you realise further business opportunities are more real and feasible than you imagine.

You're either making a lot up, or you're getting ripped off by someone selling you a site that will never yield a return. I hope I'm wrong, but honestly, nothing you have said suggests you are capable of absorbing sensible input or or properly questioning your own point of view. There is no rationality from you at all. Just your opinions!
You tend to forget, its not just the website that will be making the money, that's just the vehicle for collecting the data that will be delivered on the APP, which will be available on Rim, Windows, Android and on Apple, sorry the OS escapes me.

You tend to not realise there has been considerable research completed on this project. 7 years worth, - you can realise the effect that this would deliver amongst a worldwide audience who have participated in adding their contribution. Also keeping them informed, notifying them of the in-house testing and benefits that the service will deliver; adds to the value of the whole project.

£70K may seem a big price to pay, but our research to date documents this is a small price to pay for the return that we will achieve.

Why do you find it hard to understand?
 
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movietub

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£70K may seem a big price to pay, but our research to date documents this is a small price to pay for the return that we will achieve.

Why do you find it hard to understand?

Because you just admitted that the last time you spent £100k, 7 years ago, and got only 250k profit back. I'm sorry but spending 100k up front and netting circa £35k a year back (or more like 25k if that doesn't account for the original outlay) is pretty hopeless. If it even was end of day profit...

7 years ago accessibly was cheaper than it is now. You want to spend less now and get more than you did back then?

You're problem is that I don't believe anything you're saying. You chuck figures around without ever explaining how the money is actually made. Worse of all, you don't have the first clue about your own product. Your website is shocking. You can't remember the OS's you're paying someone 70k to develop for.

As I said before, I hope this is all or mostly made up. It would sadden me if you spent that volume of cash and could not fully remember what on, and how to explain it properly to anyone else.
 
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movietub

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That you don't stop digging.

He's nearly there. The way outs not as 'accessible' as he hoped though.

digging.jpg
 
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Because you just admitted that the last time you spent £100k, 7 years ago, and got only 250k profit back. I'm sorry but spending 100k up front and netting circa £35k a year back (or more like 25k if that doesn't account for the original outlay) is pretty hopeless. If it even was end of day profit...

7 years ago accessibly was cheaper than it is now. You want to spend less now and get more than you did back then?

You're problem is that I don't believe anything you're saying. You chuck figures around without ever explaining how the money is actually made. Worse of all, you don't have the first clue about your own product. Your website is shocking. You can't remember the OS's you're paying someone 70k to develop for.

As I said before, I hope this is all or mostly made up. It would sadden me if you spent that volume of cash and could not fully remember what on, and how to explain it properly to anyone else.


  • Both the mobile application and site will be developed towards HTML 5.
Devices and operating systems

Given the accessible nature of the application, supporting a large number of devices is important. Our approach means that we develop one core application which should scale to fit the device irrespective of the operating system. This is a much more efficient approach then developing each application separately in its native language.

These costs have been based upon deploying the application to the following devices:

• iPhone
• iPod Touch
• iPad (not optimised so will either scale or run at a smaller resolution)
• BlackBerry
• Windows Mobile
• Symbian
• Android

Considering I only had 3 hours sleep last night, and have most probably worked more hours than you, give some credit.

And for men that don't don't dig, the deeper they do, the more oil you have for your energy.

I'll dig as deep as you to get the results I want, you'll give up, because you'll get tired.
 
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movietub

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Nov 6, 2008
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  • Both the mobile application and site will be developed towards HTML 5.
Devices and operating systems

Given the accessible nature of the application, supporting a large number of devices is important. Our approach means that we develop one core application which should scale to fit the device irrespective of the operating system. This is a much more efficient approach then developing each application separately in its native language.

These costs have been based upon deploying the application to the following devices:

• iPhone
• iPod Touch
• iPad (not optimised so will either scale or run at a smaller resolution)
• BlackBerry
• Windows Mobile
• Symbian
• Android

Considering I only had 3 hours sleep last night, and have most probably worked more hours than you, give some credit.

And for men that don't don't dig, the deeper they do, the more oil you have for your energy.

I'll dig as deep as you to get the results I want, you'll give up, because you'll get tired.

How can a single service that works on windows mobile and iphone have any problems at all on the ipad? It can't be a single application you are developing that will run on all those, its can only be a website. Any site that displays on the iphone will sure as hell display just fine on the ipad. It's the same browser.

Windows mobile operates on a huge number of devices and screen sizes! If it works across all windows mobile devices then you would have no concerns about the ipad. Not unless you're releasing another flash/html hybrid.

Please stop. This is hopeless. You have no credibility left.

Just release the site/service/app, whatever it is, and then resurrect this post. I'll be around still, ready to eat my words. You may humiliate me publicly when that time comes.
 
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How can a single service that works on windows mobile and iphone have any problems at all on the ipad? It can't be a single application you are developing that will run on all those, its can only be a website. Any site that displays on the iphone will sure as hell display just fine on the ipad. It's the same browser.

Windows mobile operates on a huge number of devices and screen sizes! If it works across all windows mobile devices then you would have no concerns about the ipad. Not unless you're releasing another flash/html hybrid.

Please stop. This is hopeless. You have no credibility left.



Just release the site/service/app, whatever it is, and then resurrect this post. I'll be around still, ready to eat my words. You may humiliate me publicly when that time comes.


I think if you were to write to City Hall, London. Obtain references from, the Former Mayor of London, Ken Livingstone, Current Mayor of London, Boris Johnson and if it was physically possible the late David Morris (the former policy adviser to the mayor of London. Focusing on Disability and Accessibility) I think you would find I am very credible. Also the Chair of the UK Access Committee, Nick Gontar, and the British Standards Institute, and RIBA. Not forgetting Microsoft and a whole list of other associates and colleagues that I could put forward.
 
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movietub

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Nov 6, 2008
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I think if you were to write to City Hall, London. Obtain references from, the Former Mayor of London, Ken Livingstone, Current Mayor of London, Boris Johnson and if it was physically possible the late David Morris (the former policy adviser to the mayor of London. Focusing on Disability and Accessibility) I think you would find I am very credible. Also the Chair of the UK Access Committee, Nick Gontar, and the British Standards Institute, and RIBA. Not forgetting Microsoft and a whole list of other associates and colleagues that I could put forward.

Prove it when you release. Prove the business model that is - not just that it's possible to make a website fully accessible if you throw an unjust amount of cash at it.
 
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Tell you what. Bet someone here could whip you up a fully compliant Wordpress site which 'pushed all the right buttons'* for a couple of grand, in about a week.

If you really can get all those high falutin' people, (although not a bizniz person among them), to give you a reference it shows what a truly appalling state the 'care sector' is in.

*Obligatory use of cliche to put consultant at ease.
 
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cmcp

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Jun 25, 2007
3,340
846
Glasgow
Accessibility is a right, not a privilege. If said business did have a clue, they'd know it takes no more time or effort to implement an accessible solution over one which isn't. It costs nothing. Go to a professional and nothing will suffer; dev time, conversions, whatever you're concerned about.

(time and effort = cost btw!)

I'm not sure what your app does so can't comment on it's functionality. Perhaps you can describe it's functionality and you might salvage some of that £70k credibility.
 
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logicfusion

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Jul 2, 2009
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Sheffield
I don't get this.

Is this a new software 'layer' that can be added to existing eCommerce systems - or are people going to be tied to your software?

Small businesses are up against a lot of red tape at the moment.

I could pick several small ecommerce sites at random and I bet you at least a couple of them would not correctly cite the distance selling regulations, or not correctly state who the owner is (ie just state a name and not Ltd or Trading As )

Also, I bet most aren't registered with the Information Commissioner with regards to the DPA.
All the above points, may mean a business (probably unwittingly) is breaching some law.

I really don't think people are going to lose sleep over some new PC orientated mumo jumbo legislation (no doubt originating from Brussels).
 
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cmcp

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Jun 25, 2007
3,340
846
Glasgow
I don't get this.

Is this a new software 'layer' that can be added to existing eCommerce systems - or are people going to be tied to your software?

Small businesses are up against a lot of red tape at the moment.

I could pick several small ecommerce sites at random and I bet you at least a couple of them would not correctly cite the distance selling regulations, or not correctly state who the owner is (ie just state a name and not Ltd or Trading As )

Also, I bet most aren't registered with the Information Commissioner with regards to the DPA.
All the above points, may mean a business (probably unwittingly) is breaching some law.

I really don't think people are going to lose sleep over some new PC orientated mumo jumbo legislation (no doubt originating from Brussels).
Please read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_accessibility for some background. Educate yourself before denouncing human rights as PC orientated mumo jumbo.

It's a very credible and responsible topic. It's just been trashed by the lack of understanding of the subject, and it's audience by the OP.
 
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Please read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_accessibility for some background. Educate yourself before denouncing human rights as PC orientated mumo jumbo.

It's a very credible and responsible topic. It's just been trashed by the lack of understanding of the subject, and it's audience by the OP.

What 'Human rights' are these you refer to? There is a can of worms. Please read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights#Universal_Declaration_of_Human_Rights. Educate yourself before using 'human rights' as a justification for promoting a contentious area.
 
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The London Borough of Newham, was in need of content that enabled them to cater for people who were disabled by society; an e-learning programme was designed to enable them to deliver best practice towards their consumers who had challenges in accessibility.
So you were involved with the development of an e-learning program, computer based training software, which explained how important accessibility was.

Was that software accessible in itself? Could blind people working at Newham access it? Could people who were both deaf and blind working at Newham access it?

I understand my website isn't particularly to the standards which I have detailed in this debate - this is because at present I'm actually going through a development consultation of a new w3c compliant e-commerce website.
Your website is worse than not being w3c standards compliant, it is not accessible.

With your "12 years of industry knowledge" you should have spotted this when first setting up your website. With the amount of cheap or free hosted website builder packages out there like the Wix one you used (some Flash but more HTML), somebody with your knowledge of accessibility should have picked a more accessible solution in the first place.

Only then would you be in a better position to talk about accessibility on this forum. Having a website which is far less accessible than most member's websites on this forum is not a good position to be in if you are talking about how important web accessibility is.

If you have only spotted this recently, and web accessibility is important to you, but you like cheap hosted website builders for short term web solutions, then I suggest you move your site to a more accessible hosted website builder service (Wordpress.com, Microsoft Office Live, Google Sites, 123-reg's Instant Sitebuilder, Mr Site, etc), even for the short term (for the term before your new website arrives in May 2011).

I hope this link works, lets look at web accessibility from a knowledge sharing point http://www.youtube.com/user/BSIBrit...erm=Watch+the+BSI+videos#g/c/D6E9F7CB9CA59E12
OK, so the British Standards Institute (BSI), whose motto is "Raising Standards Worldwide", have produced a video documentary explaining how important accessibility is, including accessibility on the web. But the BSI provide no text transcript of that video for people who are both deaf and blind, either on the youtube site or on their website, so they have not delivered their documentary in an accessible way.

Text transcripts of videos are not just useful for people who are both deaf and blind, but they are also useful for anyone trying to find this information via the search engines. Yes making your content, or site, search engine friendly can go quite a way towards accessibility, and just as providing alt text for images is a good thing (for both search engines and accessibility), so is doing it for videos in the form of text transcripts.

It is interesting to note just how much hypocrisy there is when it comes to the subject of accessibility.
 
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Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities? The Equality Act 2010, to protect disabled people and prevent disability discrimination? I'm justified Dawg, thanks.

Overall I agree with your position, and am probably quibbling over the use of a phrase because of the hyperbole in the OT.

So, you can have* the Equality Act, (despite it being tainted by Harry Harperson). But The UN one? From a Human Rights body that includes Saudi? Sorry, doesn't work for me.

Did you know that the Equality Act is not applied equally? Lots of it doesn't apply in Northern Ireland. The joy of irony. :)

*He said in a non patronising, fraternal sort of way..
 
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(time and effort = cost btw!)

I'm not sure what your app does so can't comment on it's functionality. Perhaps you can describe it's functionality and you might salvage some of that £70k credibility.

Would like to say - but then the IP value would be lost and it would'nt be worth me obtaining the Patent too. All I can say is that it is a new accessibility feature.
 
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movietub

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Would like to say - but then the IP value would be lost and it would'nt be worth me obtaining the Patent too. All I can say is that it is a new accessibility feature.

You know I was, a while ago, discussing a way with a friend in which ANY site could be displayed perfectly on any device, without altering the site itself one jot. All the owner of the site would need to do is place some browser detect and redirect code in his header and the service would sort out the rest. I had the idea as an extention of remote processing of computer games that is being trialed currently.

And it was something no designer could recreate just for a single clients site, as the process is quite complex. But there is one major flaw with the system, that effects speed of website loading...

Am I by any chance on the right track do you think? If so, you have something. Doubt you could protect it, but just getting to market early on would be enough to make it all worth while.
 
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You know I was, a while ago, discussing a way with a friend in which ANY site could be displayed perfectly on any device, without altering the site itself one jot. All the owner of the site would need to do is place some browser detect and redirect code in his header and the service would sort out the rest. I had the idea as an extention of remote processing of computer games that is being trialed currently.

And it was something no designer could recreate just for a single clients site, as the process is quite complex. But there is one major flaw with the system, that effects speed of website loading...

Am I by any chance on the right track do you think? If so, you have something. Doubt you could protect it, but just getting to market early on would be enough to make it all worth while.

movietub sent you a private message.
 
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remote processing of computer games that is being trialed currently
Onlive.com, the remote processing of games on high end servers and sending the rendered output (effecively video) to a lesser-powered PC or other device, is an interesting and ambitious project. As a cloud computing project it certainly is worth a discussion thread in its own right in the UKBF's IT forum.

The remote processing of website browsing on high end servers and sending the rendered output (effectively images) to lesser-powered mobile browsing devices, is something that is being used now with the Opera Mini and the skyfire browser for mobiles, and has a similar architecture to the Onlive.com remote/cloud gaming architecture. But this architecture, when applied to web browsing, does have other issues, as in third party remote server proxy handling of secure connections and secure information in ecommerce transactions.

I think it was the remote rendering and more importantly the remote javascript execution that made it possible for the Opera Mini browser to be accepted by Apple in their AppStore. Apple does not normally allow third party scripting to take place within Apps, as a normal third party native browser, with its own Javascript engine, would use.
 
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movietub

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Nov 6, 2008
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Onlive.com, the remote processing of games on high end servers and sending the rendered output (effecively video) to a lesser-powered PC or other device, is an interesting and ambitious project. As a cloud computing project it certainly is worth a discussion thread in its own right in the UKBF's IT forum.

The remote processing of website browsing on high end servers and sending the rendered output (effectively images) to lesser-powered mobile browsing devices, is something that is being used now with the Opera Mini and the skyfire browser for mobiles, and has a similar architecture to the Onlive.com remote/cloud gaming architecture. But this architecture, when applied to web browsing, does have other issues, as in third party remote server proxy handling of secure connections and secure information in ecommerce transactions.

I think it was the remote rendering and more importantly the remote javascript execution that made it possible for the Opera Mini browser to be accepted by Apple in their AppStore. Apple does not normally allow third party scripting to take place within Apps, as a normal third party native browser, with its own Javascript engine, would use.

Yeah that's the technology I was hining at - but the OP has since pm'd me and I can confirm his idea is not the above.

Regards restrictions to script on Apple devices, someone solved this in a very crude fashion using CSS/hTML believe it or not...

They overlaid each pre rendered page 'image' with a grid of invisible divs, each 1px squared. the divs were links that when clicked sent the cursor position etc back to the server which worked out which button would have been under the clicked area. Still not apple ideal though, as its no doubt veeerrrryyy slow on a mobile connection, and touchscreens don't respond well to clicking a single pixel width object.

Removed the need for jscript though.

I agree, this topic should have it's own thread. It could apply to so many online services and solve a great deal of accessibility issues. Including people that can't access powerful software without buying a megabucks PC.
 
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JElder

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Jul 2, 2008
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Southampton, Hampshire
If anyone can share some statistics this would be very much appreciated.

No.

What kind of statistics? Number of visitors that are disabled? It's not a question you can easily ask on customer surveys, so not something we have any information on.

We try to make sites w3/DDa compliant anyway as it is good practice.
 
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