Are all Accountants the same?

[laguna]

Many years ago we had an accounting firm looking after our business affairs.
I ran a Shopfitting and construction business at the time and my wife ran a retail store. Both these businesses had a healthy turnover and we did ok.

The accounts were handled by a then small firm, but quickly grew and the level of service faulted, telephone calls not returned, late submissions etc. so we chose another one... same thing happened there.

My Brother-in-law was a cabaret singer earning good money, he too was with the same firm and it cost him dearly in fines!

I found the self assessment online to be my only solution and while not achieving all I could in potential tax savings, I at least knew they where submitted on time!

But an accountant isn't all about tax is it?

I will be starting a new manufacturing venture in 2011 and will need a chartered accountant who will offer the following:

REQUIRED SERVICES

Company formation?

Strategic tax planning?

Inventory strategy?

Procurement advice?

Lease versus buy?

Pricing strategy?

Cashflow forecasting?


Risk management in the context of:

# Project management?
Risk management tasks, responsibilities, activities and budget

# Security/privacy?
Data/IP protection, trade secrets, consequential losses

# Industrial processes?
Cost effective, environmental, outsourcing, waste management

# Health & safety?
Compliency, proactive, public/employers liability

# Financial portfolios?
Asset management, property, capital investments, corporate/personal investments

Identification/Assessment/Monitoring - Management plan and contingencies.
It is important to present the findings of risk assessments in financial terms along with a bow tie diagram.


P.A.Y.E?

Corporate accounts and annual returns?

Directors statutory duties & responsibilities?

Banking recommendations?

Help with finance sourcing and investment?

Networking contacts?

Personal Financial Advice?

I don't think these services are unreasonable and wonder why it is therefore that yet another accountant I have had a meeting with, has not provided me with estimates in over 6 weeks of having met with him?

 

[laguna]

I might just add...

I obviously don't want or need all of these services immediately but more as the company grows...

My business needs to succeed and in order for it to do that, I do need someone who understands my business and can help me achieve my objectives along the way.

Basic skills for an accountant I think?

 

[akirk]

absolutely basic skills...

we have a great accountant - individual who is also part of a network giving access to skills he doesn't have (rare)

but you need to get references from others who are running a similar type / size of company...

happy to recommend our chap - nothing in it for us, he just does us well - but you may want someone / firm which is more local...

but yes they are around - they do tend to charge slightly more though as their business model understand the need to answer phone calls / reply to emails etc. so they factor that into their costs - like any business - if you go to the cheap end of the market the customer service may suffer...

Alasdair

 

[MyAccountantOnline]

I don't think these services are unreasonable and wonder why it is therefore that yet another accountant I have had a meeting with, has not provided me with estimates in over 6 weeks of having met with him?

The list of your requirements isnt unreasonable and shouldnt be beyond any good acountant.

If an accountant is taking 6 weeks to come back to you it sounds like they arent interested in your business. Even if they had posted a quote which had gone astray after that length of time they should have come back to you.

Maybe you need to reconsider how you are choosing/looking for an accountant?

How have you found the accountants you have seen and worked with so far?

 

[David Griffiths]

Some of those skills are more relevant to an IFA than an accountant, and it would actually be illegal for anybody to give financial advice in regulated areas without being authorised. That would apply to personal financial advice and advice about investment portfolios. Some accountants have an in house IFA, as we do, other's don't

Most of the other areas are standard skills for an accountant, but the items listed under risk management are not necessarily in that category.

Many accountants will be able to give basic advice on things like health and safety, but I think that would be restricted to advising on basic responsibilities and (particularly in a manufacturing environment) you would need to consult a specialist. I'm prepared to stick my head over the parapet and say that I couldn't offer any advice on a few aspects in the risk management headings, including waste management, bow tie diagrams, and project management, other than at a basic level.

 

[laguna]

absolutely basic skills...

we have a great accountant - individual who is also part of a network giving access to skills he doesn't have (rare)

but you need to get references from others who are running a similar type / size of company...

happy to recommend our chap - nothing in it for us, he just does us well - but you may want someone / firm which is more local...

but yes they are around - they do tend to charge slightly more though as their business model understand the need to answer phone calls / reply to emails etc. so they factor that into their costs - like any business - if you go to the cheap end of the market the customer service may suffer...

Alasdair

Thanks for that.
Sounds like the sort of guy were looking for, shame he's not local to me.
I also agree and understand that outsourcing some things may be necessary but if I get the service I want and it can be entrusted to someone then ill rest easy.

 

[laguna]

The list of your requirements isnt unreasonable and shouldnt be beyond any good acountant.

If an accountant is taking 6 weeks to come back to you it sounds like they arent interested in your business. Even if they had posted a quote which had gone astray after that length of time they should have come back to you.

Maybe you need to reconsider how you are choosing/looking for an accountant?

How have you found the accountants you have seen and worked with so far?

This latest one was recommended by a business advisor at a meeting with business link.

I have since telephoned him (last week) and he says he hasn't forgotten me but was looking into some available finance from Natwest?

I'm not looking for finance!
If he had read my business plan he would have realised we are self financing this venture.

As for not been interested he was certainly impressed by our projections.

Thanks for your reply

 

[MyAccountantOnline]

This latest one was recommended by a business advisor at a meeting with business link.

I have since telephoned him (last week) and he says he hasn't forgotten me but was looking into some available finance from Natwest?

I'm not looking for finance!
If he had read my business plan he would have realised we are self financing this venture.

As for not been interested he was certainly impressed by our projections.

Thanks for your reply

For the requirements you have I would suggest you aim for a mid sized high street based, established, practice.
I suspect for your requirements you'll need a firm with a team who will be supporting you.

Maybe you have gone to smaller practices hoping for a personal service which, as you say, in reality often disappears when the practice grows?

Bank managers in the area will tend to know the 'good' firms and should be able to give you a recommendation as will others who operate in a similar field to you.

The way us accountants work varies so much - for those of us who are qualifed we all go through the same training but how we work and the type of work we deal with varies hugely.

 

[laguna]

Some of those skills are more relevant to an IFA than an accountant, and it would actually be illegal for anybody to give financial advice in regulated areas without being authorised. That would apply to personal financial advice and advice about investment portfolios. Some accountants have an in house IFA, as we do, other's don't

Most of the other areas are standard skills for an accountant, but the items listed under risk management are not necessarily in that category.

Many accountants will be able to give basic advice on things like health and safety, but I think that would be restricted to advising on basic responsibilities and (particularly in a manufacturing environment) you would need to consult a specialist. I'm prepared to stick my head over the parapet and say that I couldn't offer any advice on a few aspects in the risk management headings, including waste management, bow tie diagrams, and project management, other than at a basic level.

What is a IFA?
Independent financial advisor?

As for risk management, we do eventually intend appointing a financial director to oversee things but I would have thought from an accountants perspective that; RISK has a potential cost value associated with it, and therefore any advice provided would be based solely on an any assessment/analysis/investigation of a potential loss. Who better than an accountant to liaise with in analysing and providing contingencies?

Thanks for your reply

 

[MyAccountantOnline]

What is a IFA?
Independent financial advisor?

Yes it is

 

[laguna]

For the requirements you have I would suggest you aim for a mid sized high street based, established, practice.
I suspect for your requirements you'll need a firm with a team who will be supporting you.

Maybe you have gone to smaller practices hoping for a personal service which, as you say, in reality often disappears when the practice grows?

Bank managers in the area will tend to know the 'good' firms and should be able to give you a recommendation as will others who operate in a similar field to you.

The way us accountants work varies so much - for those of us who are qualifed we all go through the same training but how we work and the type of work we deal with varies hugely.

Yes our requirements will in all probability require support from a team.
This latest accountant works with an associate and is part of a family business. I would have thought they could handle all we might eventually need.

Chicken and egg with the bank suggestion as I also wanted to select the right bank too! Apart from our manufacturing activities, we will be distributing via the internet (merchant account/gateway) to both retail and wholesale. His only comment when I telephoned last week was that he was looking for finance for me, which I never asked for!

I may as well go to RBS where we currently bank and ask them. Thanks for the suggestion.

Thanks for your reply.

 

[elaine@cheapaccounting]

I was only having a conversation yesterday about how many accountants are really bad at 'selling'! Some seem to forget that they are running a business.

I can honestly say - we don't and you get a quote PDQ!

 

[MyAccountantOnline]

.. Some seem to forget that they are running a business.

and providing a service

 

[accountancyextra]

Personally, I don't think your requests are unreasonable and a good quality accountant should be able to either deliver on your requirements or certainly introduce you to other trusted suppliers who can (for example the regulated personal financial advice and the health & safety).

I don't neccisarily agree with Nicola about mid sized practice either. A small firm who has a commercial accountant leading it should be able to cope with growth. They would recruit staff to deal with the transactional side of the work, leaving them free to work alongside the clients. Ok, I guess the point here might be that a lot of accountants aren't that commercially minded

However, I do agree with Nicola that they aren't interested in your business. There is no way on earth that they should take 6 weeks to quote a price!

 

[MyAccountantOnline]

Ok, I guess the point here might be that a lot of accountants aren't that commercially minded

Absolutely

 

[elaine@cheapaccounting]

and providing a service

Providing the service is part of running the business IMO

 

[MyAccountantOnline]

Providing the service is part of running the business IMO

Some cant do that either

 

[Tom McClelland]

This latest one was recommended by a business advisor at a meeting with business link.

I have since telephoned him (last week) and he says he hasn't forgotten me but was looking into some available finance from Natwest?

I'm not looking for finance!
If he had read my business plan he would have realised we are self financing this venture.

As for not been interested he was certainly impressed by our projections.

Thanks for your reply

There should be no need to impress him with your projections. That's the wrong way round. Your accountant should be trying to impress you. Clearly that one isn't interested in gaining you as a client or he'd read your plans and get back to you promptly.

As for your requirements, my gut reaction is that some of the stuff you want is the basics that any competent accountant would do for you, but some of it is the kind of work that realistically you'll only get from a large practice (with fees to match). I wonder if the list would frighten off some small practices that might be perfectly suitable for your business needs to start with, and which would charge much more reasonable fees. Then once you grew to need the bigger more complex services you could switch practice at that point.

 

[accountancyextra]

but some of it is the kind of work that realistically you'll only get from a large practice (with fees to match). I wonder if the list would frighten off some small practices that might be perfectly suitable for your business needs to start with, and which would charge much more reasonable fees. Then once you grew to need the bigger more complex services you could switch practice at that point.

Not neccisarily Tom. Some small accountancy firms (like us!), "hire in" the additional expertise as it's needed. We do that by being members of a national network who support us with advanced tax planning techniques.

 

[Alpha]

I would have said that its very remote that any two accountancy practices will be the same. We all have our different backgrounds, services and breadth of experience.

Taking your business in manufacturing, for example, it would depend on where you place the most importance to the value creation within your business. If it is on producing annual accounts quickly then most accountants will cover this. If it was the internal management and commercial focus of your business then I would tend to recommend someone like Stuart (accountancyextra) primarily because I know he has a background of working in manufacturing companies as well as his experience at running a practice (Apologies if others have same background but this is for illustration purposes only)

 

[Tom McClelland]

Not neccisarily Tom. Some small accountancy firms (like us!), "hire in" the additional expertise as it's needed. We do that by being members of a national network who support us with advanced tax planning techniques.

OK, so the "right" smaller practice would be OK and you don't necessarily have to go to a 20 partner firm or the local High St branch of a top 10 firm.

As Alpha has pointed out picking the right practice is also likely to involve seeing what kind of client they're used to dealing with. I bet in some areas of the country there are numerous accountants who never, ever deal with a manufacturing company. They're qualified to do so, and they have the "book learning", but not the everyday experience.

 

[accountancyextra]

OK, so the "right" smaller practice would be OK and you don't necessarily have to go to a 20 partner firm or the local High St branch of a top 10 firm.

As Alpha has pointed out picking the right practice is also likely to involve seeing what kind of client they're used to dealing with. I bet in some areas of the country there are numerous accountants who never, ever deal with a manufacturing company. They're qualified to do so, and they have the "book learning", but not the everyday experience.

Absolutely

 

[laguna]

I bet reading what I have said already on here that you conclude i'm of the anti-accountant persuasion?

Not at all, I'll have you know I treat them all - not with the contempt some might deserve but with great admiration, and some are even known to be quite good at adding up too!

I mean come on... what do you take me for?
Its not like we're dealing with estate agents now is it?

Chris

 

[elaine@cheapaccounting]

Its not like we're dealing with estate agents now is it?

Chris

go wash your mouth out for even mentioning accountants and estate agents in the same post

 

[David Griffiths]

go wash your mouth out for even mentioning accountants and estate agents in the same post

You just did it!

 

[elaine@cheapaccounting]

You just did it!

oh very quick for you anyway

 

go wash your mouth out for even mentioning accountants and estate agents in the same post

Absolutely Accountants are firmly in the legal professions camp in fact seems they quite often need to be..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accounting_scandals

Earl

 

[laguna]

Absolutely Accountants are firmly in the legal professions camp in fact seems they quite often need to be..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accounting_scandals

Earl

Camp?
They don't need to be but... well if it helps who cares?

Sorry couldn't resist
Chris

 

[carachapman]

Hi there

I have to say that I agree with David Griffiths. Your list does not appear altogether unreasonable, and any accountancy firm advertising themselves as offering all round financial/business advice should have these sorts of things in mind.

However, as David points out, some of the things on the list are regulated activities and cannot be carried out by accountants unless they are registered with the FSA.

That doesn't mean that they can't point clients in the right direction though. I am a sole practitioner working by myself from home. I like to offer a rounded service to clients, and advise on matters such as business planning, cash flow management, stock control etc. However, there are occasions when they present me with something which falls outside of my area of expertise. The trick is knowing when to hold your hands up and admit that you don't know the answer, but you know "a man who can"!

Dropping the level of service, and lack of responsiveness is completely unacceptable! I would look for referrals, preferably from someone who operates in a similar industry. It's all good and well business advisors and bank managers recommending accountants, but how well do they really know the firms they are recommending? Only the clients who are receiving their services really know how good they are.

Good luck with your search!

BTW - the guy who didn't come back and is looking for finance - run a mile! If he can't be bothered to maintain contact and hasn't read your business plan properly, then I'd suggest that he's not the sort of person you want to help you run your business!

 

[Deleted member 30151]

Why do you think you need to look for someone local?

If you find a good accountant, or receive a referral which sounds ideal then go with it - in this day and age with E mail, post and telephones there's no need be local.

It's far more important to find the right accountant for your needs.

I have clients all over the country.

I would add that, although I'm a tax accountant, I specialise in Actors and creative types so wouldn't be looking for you to come to me.

 

[Wild Goose]

I have a client who recently complained to his bank that he wasn't receiving the service level he expected from them. By way of response they sent out a team of half a dozen people, with specialist experise in areas ranging from factoring to HR to pensions.

Although it wouldn't be unreasonable to expect the bank to have a single person with a broad knowledge in all of these topics, it is a fact of life that the more demanding and exacting the customer's requirements, the more likely it is that a team of specialists will be the order of the day. If you, Laguna, require any great level of depth of expertise from your accountant in some or all of the facets you have listed, maybe you too should be looking at appointing a team via a large independent or regional practice with individual specialists. The all-singing all-dancing all-rounder accountant is evidently proving to be too elusive a creature for you.

What does come across, Laguna, is that you are not particularly impressed by accountants in general. But are they impressed with you? You want an accountant to help you get the business up and running, but also say you intend appointing a replacement soon afterwards in the guise of a Financial Controller. That's a rather unattractive foot on which to slip a glass slipper - any commercially minded accountant faced with the learning curve of getting to know you, your business, and a bow-tie diagram would no doubt want a longer relationship than such a brief encounter. I'm going to put my neck on the block by suggesting you re-think how you present yourself as a prospect to accountants - events suggest you are presently something of an ugly sister.

 

[Rexxom]

I bet reading what I have said already on here that you conclude i'm of the anti-accountant persuasion?

 

[laguna]

If you, Laguna, require any great level of depth of expertise from your accountant in some or all of the facets you have listed, maybe you too should be looking at appointing a team via a large independent or regional practice with individual specialists. The all-singing all-dancing all-rounder accountant is evidently proving to be too elusive a creature for you.

Appointing a "team" of so called "Specialists" is not what my company are looking for and certainly not what I would recommend a start-up should be looking for either. A firm with good all round abilities however, and an ear to the ground is all I could reasonably expect.
Maybe from your point of view, that is too unreasonable!

To me an accountant provides a valuable service and is someone that takes an interest in who and what our company does. Our goals are achievable only by careful planning and consultation long term, we are certainly not looking for someone to just submit our annual returns.

What does come across, Laguna, is that you are not particularly impressed by accountants in general. But are they impressed with you? You want an accountant to help you get the business up and running, but also say you intend appointing a replacement soon afterwards in the guise of a Financial Controller. That's a rather unattractive foot on which to slip a glass slipper - any commercially minded accountant faced with the learning curve of getting to know you, your business, and a bow-tie diagram would no doubt want a longer relationship than such a brief encounter. I'm going to put my neck on the block by suggesting you re-think how you present yourself as a prospect to accountants - events suggest you are presently something of an ugly sister.

Who said or even suggested it might be a brief encounter?
Since when does the appointment of a finance director automatically mean dispensing with an accountants services?
What if that accountant takes on the role of finance director for example?
What if I suggested, I'm wanting to form long lasting professional relationships?
Is it too unreasonable for me to expect my accountant to know my company explicitly?

You make far too many presumptions without knowing all the facts and quite frankly Cinderella, your making a right pantomime of it.

 

[Wild Goose]

A firm with good all round abilities however, and an ear to the ground is all I could reasonably expect.
Maybe from your point of view, that is too unreasonable!

You've shifted the goalposts! You started off wanting an accountant with a lengthy list of all-round abilities; now you've changed that to a FIRM with those all-round abilities. You've started singing from my hymn-sheet!

Who said or even suggested it might be a brief encounter?
Since when does the appointment of a finance director automatically mean dispensing with an accountants services?
What if that accountant takes on the role of finance director for example?
What if I suggested, I'm wanting to form long lasting professional relationships?
Is it too unreasonable for me to expect my accountant to know my company explicitly?

The appointment of an FD is bound to mean a reduction in duties for your Prince Charming Accountant.

You make far too many presumptions without knowing all the facts and quite frankly Cinderella, your making a right pantomime of it.

They're just assumptions, based on the facts given.

Good luck at the Ball, Griselda.

 

[elaine@cheapaccounting]

duties for your Prince Charming Accountant.

or of course ...

Princess Charming Accountant

 

[accountancyextra]

The appointment of an FD is bound to mean a reduction in duties for your Prince Charming Accountant.

Depends, for example, we offer a part time/ vrtual FD service as part of the way we work with clients, so there's no reason that his accountant couldn't actually take up this role and increase his/her involvement with Chris' company.