SEO Crap information

[OldWelshGuy]

Not all solicitors are the same though. We moved a house into a trust, and the solicitor who handled it picked up on things that the original solicitor who did the conveyancing missed

 

As someone once said, if you can tell the good advice from the bad advice, then you didn't need the advice in the first place

So if you buy an expensive car you get it checked out by the AA or a qulified mechanic.?

Also if you have a website one assumes it was built by a designer who should have at least a basic knowledge of SEO to help the client.?

Or is that the major problem that they just churn them out for a quick Buck.?

I think all webdesigners should have a knowledge of SEO or they really are not much good to an online business as they are usually the first contact with an IT person.IMHO

Earl

 

[cmcp]

If the person building the site knows about valid HTML and can build a semantic site with efficient code for all humans reading it with all devices, SEO shouldn't need to be considered.

 

[Ali-v-8]

Can i say something that may clarify a lot.
Seo means different things to different people.
I dont exactly know how to categorise all seo work and what seo work a web designer would do.
But Would you agree Earl that our plan of action is to gain as much exposure and revenue for our clients via the internet. A sum total of our work is more money the client makes the happier they are the more they spend with you.
Where as a website designers primary job is to make a website fully functional without any hiccups. the less time he spends on it the more money he makes.
I am just speaking out to differentiate the two.

So if you buy an expensive car you get it checked out by the AA or a qulified mechanic.?

Also if you have a website one assumes it was built by a designer who should have at least a basic knowledge of SEO to help the client.?

Or is that the major problem that they just churn them out for a quick Buck.?

I think all webdesigners should have a knowledge of SEO or they really are not much good to an online business as they are usually the first contact with an IT person.IMHO

Earl

 

[akirk]

Can i say something that may clarify a lot.
Seo means different things to different people.
I dont exactly know how to categorise all seo work and what seo work a web designer would do.
But Would you agree Earl that our plan of action is to gain as much exposure and revenue for our clients via the internet. A sum total of our work is more money the client makes the happier they are the more they spend with you.
Where as a website designers primary job is to make a website fully functional without any hiccups. the less time he spends on it the more money he makes.
I am just speaking out to differentiate the two.

I see where you are coming from, but one of the problems in the industry is fragmentation of skills:
- companies who do design / pretty websites, but have no idea about coding
- companies who can code but their design is dreadful
- companies who put in third party software with templates, but have no idea about coding or design
- companies who do seo with no knowledge of design or coding, or design / coding with no knowledge of seo

The purpose of a website is to move a business forward, to make money / increase reputation / increase brand awareness / etc. Notice that none of these are to have a website where the design / coding / seo is good, those are just the tools to drive the business' true needs...

It is important therefore, and the main responsibility of a web company, to be producing a website that:
- meets their business needs / grows the business
& supports this with:
- design that guides the viewer to the business' desired destination
- coding that supports the functionality needed for that purpose
- seo that maximises relevant visitors hitting the website fo those business needs

I find it difficult to see how any web company can offer bits of this in isolation, yet that is how the majority of web companies work.

Alasdair

 

[Ali-v-8]

Either I am getting better at explaining things or i am getting better at explaining things...lol
Skill sets and results = good internet marketing.
combinations of certain platforms are the best solution.
My epiphany has shown me the light...

 

[Annoying Donkey]

Lost in all the drivel is the fact that the OP rushed onto this forum to complain about an SEO, only to return later and admit the SEO had contacted him to explain. Perhaps a bit more communication should have taken place before posting. I wonder how many other industries have to put up with so much claptrap...

As for regulation, the banking crisis should tell you how useful that is... I wonder how many accountants have had their certification removed by their 'professional association'? How many solicitors?

Paid links? Why? Some people just have no imagination

As for finding the right SEO, it is a simple matter of defining what is to be achieved - a specification - and if the specification is not achieved, then you have a case for recovering some or all money paid. Just like any other business arrangement... Why faff about with dubious testimonials and 'proof'?

 

[Unicora]

I can see from your site that you are already have enough knowledge to set-up an entry-level SEO company. As you say, the work involved is a walk in the park. All a lot of SEOs do is roll this out time and time again. Nothing wrong with that, most people can't afford the high-end SEO you will read about on SEOMoz; and you can't hire someone for bottom dollar to do high-end work.



There's not much to it. You can rank sites in many niches on auto-pilot. There is a guy on here with about 600 sites with varying rankings from diddler keywords to relativley competitive. Most of those have only had maybe 10 minutes of SEO work on them, because you can roll these things out again and again.

It's when you working at the higher level where you can't just steam-roll your way up that you can't spend all day waffling in forum.



Yes



Don't agree with that at all. You get a lot of people saying PR is worthless, green pixie dust etc. etc; but if you want to rank in the real competitive niches, you need an SEO/company that are able to provide links from pages that have high PageRank. You can't rank for some terms with PR2 sites no matter how many keyed links you have coming in; and some SEOs have trouble generating links that can get this PR. In a competitive niche, ranking is requires links from pages with PageRank and links with the anchor, because your competitors have that too - sliding scale.

PR is also still the primary factor in deciding the price of paid links.

Yes I didn't explain myself well lol, I just meant 'SEO gurus' who think good SEO is getting a good PR. The solid fact is GOOD seo will get good results in various keyword searches. I just meant that people focus too heavly on the PR rating of their sites.

 

[GNU]

Not all solicitors are the same though. We moved a house into a trust, and the solicitor who handled it picked up on things that the original solicitor who did the conveyancing missed

I moved house once, and 9 months later got a letter from the Law Society telling me that conveyancing had not been completed properly, they resolved the issue at no cost to me. I think the guy had some kind of melt down and ended up in a bit of a mess.

Thing is, they are accountable to a professional body that does give some protection.

I know there are plenty of professions that have no such body, or if they do it is not mandatory, I am just making this comparison to illustrate the fact that anyone can call themselves and "SEO Expert" and start hawking for business... but I guess the same is true of lots of trades etc.

 

[GNU]

So if you buy an expensive car you get it checked out by the AA or a qulified mechanic.?
Earl

That is part of the problem, there is no "AA" in SEO, not unless you mean Alachaholics Anonymous.

What you have is something closer to a used car auction.

 

[OldWelshGuy]

Anyone can call themselves a

butcher
baker
candlestick maker
COSMETIC PRACTITIONER, yep, no qualifications or governing body needed to inject snake venom into people.
Estate agent
marketing executive.
Sales executive
Business consultant
the list goes on.

Why is it that people feel the need to single out Internet markleters for the need to be regulated, when web designers the very people who put PERSONAL DATA online are NOT regulated?

We tried many many years ago (with the help and funding of Google) to set up an official representative body for search marketing. It still exists however it hasn't achieved what it wanted to. why?

because only the good companies joined initially, and then it became a badge of honour to allow you to treble your rates.

 

That is part of the problem, there is no "AA" in SEO, not unless you mean Alachaholics Anonymous.

What you have is something closer to a used car auction.

I think you will find UKBF has its own AA for SEO inspection.

Earl

 

[omnivore]

only the good companies joined initially, and then it became a badge of honour to allow you to treble your rates.

that should be exactly the reason why it SHOULD succeed!
if it was commercially advantageous to be a member and staying a member was dependent on being straight, then it ought to work very well surely!

 

[GNU]

As for finding the right SEO, it is a simple matter of defining what is to be achieved - a specification - and if the specification is not achieved, then you have a case for recovering some or all money paid. Just like any other business arrangement... Why faff about with dubious testimonials and 'proof'?

You would have to be an SEO yourself to produce a "specification" that was worth the paper it was written on.

 

[OldWelshGuy]

that should be exactly the reason why it SHOULD succeed!
if it was commercially advantageous to be a member and staying a member was dependent on being straight, then it ought to work very well surely!

And THAT was the problem right there. No-one (including Google) could decide the definition spec. The task is too large, it was decided that it could not be a governing regulatory body, it had to be a best practice advisory organisation.

 

[GNU]

Anyone can call themselves a

butcher
baker
candlestick maker
COSMETIC PRACTITIONER, yep, no qualifications or governing body needed to inject snake venom into people.
Estate agent
marketing executive.
Sales executive
Business consultant
the list goes on.

Why is it that people feel the need to single out Internet markleters for the need to be regulated, when web designers the very people who put PERSONAL DATA online are NOT regulated?

We tried many many years ago (with the help and funding of Google) to set up an official representative body for search marketing. It still exists however it hasn't achieved what it wanted to. why?

because only the good companies joined initially, and then it became a badge of honour to allow you to treble your rates.

I am not singling out IM specifically, it is a field I work in and know how inherrantly corrupt it is, whereas I dont know anything about being a butcher.

It will never be regulated, it cannot be because of its global nature, and I would not want it regulated, I just wish there were less lies spun / scammers on the scene.

 

[GNU]

And THAT was the problem right there. No-one (including Google) could decide the definition spec. The task is too large, it was decided that it could not be a governing regulatory body, it had to be a best practice advisory organisation.

Yeah because sticking to Google guidelines does not get your site ranked... so right there you have a discrepancy between what people can openly admit to without fear of retribution from G, and what they actually practice behind the scenes.

 

[Annoying Donkey]

You would have to be an SEO yourself to produce a "specification" that was worth the paper it was written on.

Really?

Do you have to be an accountant to specify you want a tax return done?
Do you have to be a solicitor to specify you want a legal action taken?
Do you have to be a plumber to specify you want a new bathroom?

If you want SEO done, then presumably you have an idea why... Perhaps that is the real issue, you don't know why you want it, you just want it...

 

[akirk]

You would have to be an SEO yourself to produce a "specification" that was worth the paper it was written on.

sorry that is nonsense and a typical SEO practitioners' response...

as I posted above the driver behind website work, (whether design / coding / seo / etc.), is the business needs / strategy...

therefore it is not difficult for the client to write a spec. from that perspective.

aim: to move from 100 people a day visiting the website & 5 sales to 1,000 people a day & 200 sales:

= two targets -> increase exposure / visits by 9x and increase sales by 40x

a business can easily write a spec. like that with no knowledge / interest in SEO at all, they need not have heard of Google / keywords, they might assume that long tails appear on lizards, and that SERPs are some form of Government financial bond, but they know what they want their business to achieve...

if an SEO company can't take a business spec. and then advise the company on how to acheive that (including advice on modifying / staging as appropriate) then they should not be in SEO.

Alasdair

 

[RedEvo]

Every profession known to man has its scammers surely? Regulation and accreditation is an issue in many professions. How many people call themselves engineers when in fact they are technicians? And this is a well established field! SEO is brand new in relation to many professions, even the IT profession is only just getting its house in order and it's been around for decades.

d

 

Yeah because sticking to Google guidelines does not get your site ranked... .

What on earth makes you think that.?

Not sticking to Googles guidelines is not an option for most viable sites.:|

Earl

 

[RedEvo]

It's obvious sites are ranking using dubious techniques, it will always be thus.

d

 

It's obvious sites are ranking using dubious techniques, it will always be thus.

d

Dubious may be a matter of opinion.But googles terms and conditions are set in stone.Break then at your peril.

Earl

 

[RedEvo]

You know as well as I do there are plenty of sites who rank whilst flouting Google's guidelines. With some major players in the link selling game perhaps Google's battle is lost.

d

 

You know as well as I do there are plenty of sites who rank whilst flouting Google's guidelines. With some major players in the link selling game perhaps Google's battle is lost.

d

Quite agree many do buy links and some have come a cropper.

As you say it makes a nonsense of page rank.e.t.c.

I have never bought a link in my life as so far fortunately I have not found it necessary for the sites I have worked on.

It does appear that google is not giving so much importance to links as they used to.?:|

Earl

 

[RedEvo]

It does appear that google is not giving so much importance to links as they used to.?:|

Earl

Or maybe getting better at discounting spammy links which would mean your sites with decent links float north?

d

 

[harryboon]

This is what I believe is really happening - lets face it many companies use many methods to build links and of course not all 'white hat' - however I feel that google is just getting much better at discounting those sort of links now, which is fair comment - Google knows what people get up too, and they are just dealing with it

Or maybe getting better at discounting spammy links which would mean your sites with decent links float north?

d

 

[Ali-v-8]

Good point gnu. However long term results with successful management and happy clients could constitute as an SEO Expert.

 

[david64]

I find it difficult to see how any web company can offer bits of this in isolation, yet that is how the majority of web companies work.

Good point. However, that's how it's turned out.

I wonder how many other industries have to put up with so much claptrap...

You do have to put up with a lot as an SEO or webbie for hire, but it can go both ways. The secret is to drop, dress down, control problem clients & tell the truth of what you are doing. If you do that, after a year or two of operation, you should have a good base of clients.

As for regulation, the banking crisis should tell you how useful that is... ?

Try deregulation. That has what's been going on all these years and in has part caused the so-called "banking crisis". Also, try not regulating new financial services, which is the primary reason behind the so-called banking crisis. When they brought out all these derivative financial services, the guy & others who cleaned up the savings and loans scam said these new services needed to be regulated. They were told they can't and the mountains of paper on paper that is not worth a brass farthing created the so-called banking crisis, which has led to record profits for the TBFs.

Paid links? Why? Some people just have no imagination

Like what? Comment spam? I've had a bit of that from your URL.

Why is it that people feel the need to single out Internet markleters for the need to be regulated, when web designers the very people who put PERSONAL DATA online are NOT regulated?

It's because SEOs have such bad reputations as spammers and scammers and there is of course the problem that clients can get confused and think they have been scammed when they haven't ... or maybe just misled. Not sure if there are that many butchers and candle-stick makers have this rep.?

I don't think regulation is a good idea. I have done sites for numerous trade people and a number of them say that the accreditations aren't worth the paper they're printed on.

At least one solution is people who want SEO doing their homework. I think one person said on this thread that if you want SEO, you should get yourself to a level where you could at least do some of it yourself. IMO, real SEO (contet-based) should generally be done by the client. Not much chance of hiring an SEO to work their behind off to do that. Too much work, too expensive, too little results for commercial SERPs.

What on earth makes you think that.?

Not sticking to Googles guidelines is not an option for most viable sites

Google say to make sites for people and not SEs in their guidelines. Looking at your Volkswagen Spares site, I would say that site is made for SEs and has elements that are only there for them, like that giant list of parts in a small font.

They also say "Don't participate in link schemes designed to increase your site's ranking or PageRank"

That sound like your job description, Earl, as well with everyone else on here are engaged in SEO

Like anyone is going to pansy about only getting links that Matt Cutts would green light when everyone knows 99% of commercial SERPs are gamed by link garbage.

 

Google say to make sites for people and not SEs in their guidelines. Looking at your Volkswagen Spares site, I would say that site is made for SEs and has elements that are only there for them, like that giant list of parts in a small font.


.

Totall rubbish a list of parts tell the searcher that we do and parts they are looking for.

Of course it is there for the SE's as well ,as a bona fide example of what search engines want to see in a site.

Hence good SEO always writes for both the visitor and the SE's,its inevitable.

Earl

 

[david64]

Totall rubbish a list of parts tell the searcher that we do and parts they are looking for.

Of course it is there for the SE's as well ,as a bona fide example of what search engines want to see in a site.

Hence good SEO always writes for both the visitor and the SE's,its inevitable.

I guess people just have different standards, Earl. I wouldn't do something like that on a site. There are (always) ways of putting lots of keywords on your page(s) that don't look like they are just there for SEs.

How would you feel about doing this (http://www.topskips.com/skip-hire-locations.php) on one of your sites? Again, there are ways of doing that, which would not be such a spam-fest.

 

I guess people just have different standards, Earl. I wouldn't do something like that on a site. There are (always) ways of putting lots of keywords on your page(s) that don't look like they are just there for SEs.

How would you feel about doing this (http://www.topskips.com/skip-hire-locations.php) on one of your sites? Again, there are ways of doing that, which would not be such a spam-fest.

If you don't have the part or product mentioned on your site how are either the search engines of the visitor going to find that part.?:|

Earl

 

[directmarketingadvice]

How would you feel about doing this (http://www.topskips.com/skip-hire-locations.php) on one of your sites? Again, there are ways of doing that, which would not be such a spam-fest.

Isn't he meant to be some super-duper SEO guy?

Steve

 

[david64]

If you don't have the part or product mentioned on your site how are either the search engines of the visitor going to find that part.?:|

I've only had a glance at that site and obviously don't have the in-depth knowledge that you no doubt do on the site and the relevant search; however, if it was my site, I would probably want to get individual pages up for all of the parts and get those ranking instead of having big lists. I'd do in-depth key.d research on each of them, and come up with some decent text for humans on the individual pages that includes all the relevant words I could find.

As the site would be a commercial site that I don't really give two hoots about from an attachment & quality perspective, I wouldn't give too much notice where I was getting the links from.

P.S. I am not trying to attack or insult your SEO method. We have different methods and as we don't share minds can't see things from each other's exact perspective.

 

[GNU]

What on earth makes you think that.?
Not sticking to Googles guidelines is not an option for most viable sites.:|
Earl

What makes me think that... the SERPS, the backlink profiles of successful sites, backlink profiles of non successful sites, backlinks of SEO companies sites, backlinks of their clients sites, and experience with my own sites.

I wasted a lot of time on Giggles guidelines and the claptrab spewed by "SEO experts", when all I really needed to know was where to get backlinks.

I can see SEO's in this forum using all manner of automation, comment spam et al. I have seen posts where people have joked about going off to watch the TV and coming back to find they have xxxx number of backlinks... clearly using software... not exactly Google friendly.

Then there is the SEO company who is apparently a supplier to the NHS, at least they are listed in an NHS their supplier directory...

And then when they think prospective customers may be looking they start gassing about quality white hat SEO, google guidelines, secret tweaks and magic beans.

 

[GNU]

Isn't he meant to be some super-duper SEO guy?

Steve

No he is low grade bum marketer charging £500 for inferior information to that which can be gained at theKeywordAcademy.com for $1.

That page David listed used to take any parameter you cared to throw at it. I had a page indexed for "skip hire in cheap viagra" for a while.

I suggested they make a whitelist to stop this, but they did not know what a whitelist was and created a blacklist instead, which means you can still inject stuff into those pages.

Not an SEO expert at all, just a guy in a position to do something with "skip hire" terms... who figured out the secrets of the craplinx.

 

[GNU]

If you don't have the part or product mentioned on your site how are either the search engines of the visitor going to find that part.?:|

Earl

The original point was that the page was at least in part written for search engines not people.

People can use a search form with POST button to find your products, but search engines cannot follow POST forms.

People will not find any value in the hundreds of keywords at the bottom of your pages, but search engines will pick them up.

So, strictly speaking your page has not "been written for people not search engines".

Most people I know would call that keyword stuffing.

Nothing wrong with that, but its not what Giggle try to promote is it?

 

[david64]

Isn't he meant to be some super-duper SEO guy?

Steve

Mark Attwood has a proven record of ranking sites for what in what you might call low-mild competition terms, with [skip hire] probably being the most competitive. As GNU mentions, the techniques he uses are the same techniques that most SEOs use garbage link building (directories & articles) and paid links (splogs & other paid links). He also uses a lot of on-page techniques that a lot of people think is pure spam, such as the geo-stuffed page linked above.

Attwood has an SEO model that falls under the umbrella of: crap is king for the little guy. The kind of stuff he is up to is not that difficult. If you want some advice on that model, Mark may be able to offer something of value.

To give you an idea of how easy it is, I had a website that ranked page one for [skip hire] for about 1 1/2 years. It took me about 20 hours of work to do that, including the time to whack up a quick website with a HQ template. At first I floated the enquires out and then sold the site, at which point the new owner completely borked it though lack of basic web & SEO knowledge. That gives you an idea of just how easy this SEO stuff is when you know which schemes to run out. These industrial niches are prime as they are so uncompetitive and good converters. For example, if someone is searching for a pram, they will probably shop about looking for the best for the kids, they may be 1 month pregnant etc. However if someone searches for a skip or a portable toilet or a portakabin, it's probably because they want one right now.

Then going on to the geo-spam pages. You find a lot of companies using these, i.e. 100s or 1000s of geo-targetted pages either using spun or the same content with different place names in it. Very unimaginative and equivalent to taking a leek on your site. It is quite easy to come up an idea for geo-targetted content that is not spam. As an example, I was working on a national driving school website and they wanted spam pages for every town in the country. I refused to do it and after brainstorming, the guy suggested that we could get the driving routes for each town (of which there are about 16,000 different routes) and provide them via Google Maps for people to learn online. Pure gold. This allowed the site to provide valueable info for people in that area, which will build natural links and at the same time allow the site to legitmietly have 1000s of geo-targetted pages. So I got hold of them all in PDF, converted them to HTML, used DOM to extract all the locations, used G & Y Maps APIs to geocode them all and store all the long & lats in a database. Then I left the company and instead of putting in the 1 day of programming to finish off what I did, they put up about 1,600 pages of incomprehensible, spun babble on their geo-spam pages which don't rank for pudding nor pie.

A lot of people will deface their site to no-end for SE traffic, because its the easy way, even though it may not be the best long-term. Its the same reason why almost everyone is using crap and unethical link building.

 

[directmarketingadvice]

Not an SEO expert at all, just a guy in a position to do something with "skip hire" terms... who figured out the secrets of the craplinx.

Well clearly they work because he's #1 for his main keyword.

I really don't get this link snobbery amongst SEOs on here. Surely Google are the ones who decide what is or isn't a "crap link"?

Steve

 

[GNU]

This is what I believe is really happening - lets face it many companies use many methods to build links and of course not all 'white hat' - however I feel that google is just getting much better at discounting those sort of links now, which is fair comment - Google knows what people get up too, and they are just dealing with it

Good quality links will always win over poor ones, but lots of spammy links will still win over fewer spammy ones (paper scisors rock ), as long as you have more than your competitor your ok.