Websites without company details

[KidsBeeHappy]

HI

I need a bit of rant here. One of my biggest bugbears is websites where the website owner doesn't include the company details, or business owner details.

You click "about us" and you find out lots of information about "magical invented company" with nothing there actually telling you who it is that you are dealing with. Then they say "contact us" for more information and it takes you to a web enquiry form.

Why do customers even entertain dealing with a business that hides itself like this. If they're doing this when they're in the selling phase, what the heck are they going to be like when something goes wrong.

It's a serious question, because the parcel and courier industries are flooded with websites like this..... Pay money and they'll sort your delivery. But they won't tell you who they are????

I don't understand how customers can be this gullible? Why would they deal with a complete unknown entity for the sake of saving 50P?

 

[mookgirluk]

They're also in breach of the ecommerce regulations (see http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg/action/detail?type=RESOURCES&itemId=1075385126) when they do this. Just a shame that there's no central body to regulate this that you can report them to.

 

[Kev Jaques]

When you're a one man band you cannot afford this kind of approach. That's why I'm completely transparent but not invisible I even make the tea
I think part of it is probably due to them not having someone that owns their website project and to see it meets any kinds of regulations, possibly down to the unknown or other such criteria.

 

[Beachcomber]

I do think alot of this is down to one man band / small businesses a) not knowing it is a requirement and b) being worried about publishing their own address / tel # online.

You are right though - it would put me off dealing with anyone.

 

[Dawg]

Unofficially I have heard that Kent Trading Standards turn a blind eye to this in the case of small traders because of security implications.
The law, as with so many, is written with medium and large companies in mind.

(The blind eye might also be turned because they don't give a damn, and it's just more work.)

 

[FireFleur]

Does it really matter. What matters is the payment gateway, if a site tries to take payment under their domain, and not the domain of a payment gateway then it is cause for concern.

The payment gateway will have the details, and will release them in the event of any problem with not too much hassle.

And most companies who show limited information online, tend to show all information once an order has been placed.

If you are dealing with a service company, they will tend to build the relationship before you even see a bill, and you will have numerous ways of contacting them.

The payment gateway is what matters. And in fact you improve security by having less out there, moving onus to payment gateway is the best bet they are set up well for security generally.

 

[flapjack]

i agree with Dawg, but on the other hand i think its a bit dodgy if you dont have an address but if you have no address or contact number (0845 non-geo) then it stinks of a scam to me and the council should step in.

 

[jaffab]

Lots of talk about 'one man bands' here. The worst for this is the massive companies. Try and find a phone number for the big companies, an address, a persons name or an email address - none to be seen. They all take you to a blasted form. Some of the big names that do this...

Amazon, play.com, BT, Virgin Media, etc.

I guess they dont want you calling them, writing to them, etc.

The only number they ever list is a 'new customer signup' number, and this is always automated, and the first question - please press hash twice, followed by your account number to continue.

 

I agree that the signal is at best unprofessional and at worst dodgy.

I would always want telephone recourse to a supplier.

I think that with many smaller businesses it is simply an oversight (which a good designer should pick up on) whereas with others the clear message is 'deal through our systems, not through our people'.

In the lager companies, full details can often be found buried within their T & Cs or legal content.

 

[movietub]

More and more customers don't entertain websites like this anymore. When most people were newish to ecommerce and other interative websites they generally did as instructed on the website. These last few years I have noticed a big change. Generally people know what to look for in a decent setup.

Let these dinosaurs cary on and eventually become extinct! Don't worry about their mistakes, just find a decent alternative

 

[FireFleur]

If you are trading with a co.uk then the Registrant address will be in the whois database anyhow.

People can put up any old address on a web site, but the whois will give you a live address. If they don't match then sure the site is more likely to be engaged in fraudulent activity. But, the address in whois is more applicable than an addess on a web page.

If someone is claiming non-trading and are trading under that domain, then they have broken T&Cs with Nominet. But if the payment gateway is under another domain, then they are not really trading under that domain.

The payment gateway has to ensure that the company is real, and it has access to accounts and ability to get refund, so you trust the payment gateway not the retailer.

 

[KidsBeeHappy]

If you are trading with a co.uk then the Registrant address will be in the whois database anyhow.

People can put up any old address on a web site, but the whois will give you a live address. If they don't match then sure the site is more likely to be engaged in fraudulent activity. But, the address in whois is more applicable than an addess on a web page.

If someone is claiming non-trading and are trading under that domain, then they have broken T&Cs with Nominet. But if the payment gateway is under another domain, then they are not really trading under that domain.

The payment gateway has to ensure that the company is real, and it has access to accounts and ability to get refund, so you trust the payment gateway not the retailer.

But doesn't all of that simply say - this is a company that you're better off not dealing with!!

I know of a load of parcel resellers who use paypal on such sites, they pop up, and trade away, failing to process bookings, then when it gets a bit too heated the website disappears and another reappears a few days later, a different paypal address, and off we go again.

They whallop up the adwords and get the customers in quick, and then a few weeks later it all starts again.

And the customers moan........

 

[FireFleur]

The whois details are more important than someone putting up details, because the details can be faked on their site, whois is harder.

But if a payment gateway is involved and it is under the domain of the payment gateway the consumer is having the relationship with the payment gateway not the retailer. The payment gateway acts as the middle man

Not all payment gateways are that great but they will come into more stick if they don't follow procedure so they will cease to be a payment gateway.

For sites that do ask for credit card details under their domain, and I want to buy from them, then I will come back to them after a couple of weeks if I haven't seen them before. Because sites that trade fraudulently tend to be forced off the web by complaints anyhow.

The fraudsters do this:

1. Make a site that looks good.
2. Add a load of obvious contact details that they can control.
3. Take credit card details under their domain.

1 and 2 are meaningless, except to lull into a false sense, 3 is the sting.

2 is worse for the site owner, as they have to worry about their security as well, so it is not a good idea trying to wave that idea too much, as the fraudsters can capitalise on that anyhow.

 

[KidsBeeHappy]

But paypal don't care because they simply freeze and refund the money to the customer and consider job done.

I just wonder what it is that inspires customers to spend money on websites like these. There is very little on the web that you can't get elsewhere, why would someone go down this route just to save 50p?

 

[FireFleur]

PayPal is the protection to the consumer, the payment gateway.

Not a telephone number, or address on the site, those can be faked or not mean that much anyhow.

What is harder to fake is whois details, so that's more of a test for a legitimate site if you want to do it on who you are dealing with.

But, even that is reduced in relevance when a payment gateway is involved.

Once PayPal closes an account because of charge backs or fraud, then it is harder for that account holder to open another paypal account, and ultimatley it is just time wasting with the liability that paypal will come after that account holder eventually.

 

[FireFleur]

A model that works quite well is the register with site, confirm email address, as long as email address is not an easy to get email address, then when logged in to site show full contact details.

I use to have that on one of my sites, and I probably will again when I get round to it, as that is a fairly good form of establishing trust for both parties. There is still a slight security problem with it though, but that could be overcome a bit with a slight change to the system.

Never be 100% but it does reduce problems.

There are other things that we could all do to improve security and make fraud harder, things like a web of trust, and the use of public key encryption at a personal level are things that are available, but they tend to be a little too complex for people to integrate into their digital lives, but hey that could change.

 

[Matt1959]

When most people were newish to ecommerce and other interative websites they generally did as instructed on the website. These last few years I have noticed a big change. Generally people know what to look for in a decent setup.

Good point slipped in here I reckon, and worth noting:|

I personally won't deal with any site unless either its a national brand name or is transparent with all the detail that this thread mentions....

 

[FireFleur]

You have to be careful with big names as well, there are scams using passing off.

I think the delivery scam works by getting people to pay for an undelivered package over another mechanism than the web, then they scam a newspaper pretending to be a big brand and advertise paying with the money from the delivery scam, the final scam is normally done over the phone or even a bricks and mortar unit.

Oddly enough that scam is not to do with the Web or ecommerce really, except to start off the system.

There is more security, and more of a trail in ecommerce than in normal older commerce, and it is because ecommerce doesn't really use the same indicators, so it is a step backwards to call for them.

 

[mike1337]

Lots of talk about 'one man bands' here. The worst for this is the massive companies. Try and find a phone number for the big companies, an address, a persons name or an email address - none to be seen. They all take you to a blasted form. Some of the big names that do this...

Amazon, play.com, BT, Virgin Media, etc.

I guess they dont want you calling them, writing to them, etc.

The only number they ever list is a 'new customer signup' number, and this is always automated, and the first question - please press hash twice, followed by your account number to continue.

I work at a fairly large company and we list our head office phone number on our website.The amount of sales calls we get is ridicilous and is a big waste of time so I can understand the bigger companies above not listing the number. I especially hate the 'Are you on the first page of Google' calls.

 

[movietub]

I work at a fairly large company and we list our head office phone number on our website.The amount of sales calls we get is ridicilous and is a big waste of time so I can understand the bigger companies above not listing the number. I especially hate the 'Are you on the first page of Google' calls.

Bigger companies can get away with not advertising their number (or typically making it near impossible to find on the site). People generally accept lesser levels of convenience from a known quantity. Also they don't need to see the typical signs of a legitimate company. If I'm shopping on halfords.co.uk then I wouldnt even start to look for an address or phone number, I know the company exists and won't be running a scam.

I don't blame larger companies for often hiding their number either. As you say they get a lot of pointless hassle. I guess people feel less embarrassed calling a company if they know they will get through to call centre staff that deal with it all the time. Try calling an independant webshop and you risk getting through to the owner that may be a little too assertive for the average dosy callers liking!!

I apologised and asked how he suggested we term days monday to friday. He said, change it to 'weekday delivery'. Oh no I said, that confuses all the people that think there are 7 days in each week... Shall I cancel this order then? No? Be with you on Monday

People like that know that if they call a major company the staff won't tend to challenge them on their pedantic whining.


EDIT: I'm aware I should not challenge customers either... But I can afford these simple pleasures from time to time!
A customer called our place once to complain that they had not recieved their 'next working day' delivery on a Saturday. They reasoned that they worked Saturday, so did we. Therfore clearly Saturday was a working day.

 

[newbeats4u]

I have my personal address visible on my site but not my phone number because I do not have a landline and I hear nothing but bad things about putting your mobile up as it comes across un-professional.

Is my home address enough plus email of course?

 

[mike1337]

A customer called our place once to complain that they had not recieved their 'next working day' delivery on a Saturday. They reasoned that they worked Saturday, so did we. Therfore clearly Saturday was a working day.

We had one the other day who did not like the new signage we had put up on the new shop across the road from him (taken over another business so replaced the sign). He didn't like opening up his curtains in the morning to a green sign and wanted to know what we were going to do about it :|

 

[movietub]

We had one the other day who did not like the new signage we had put up on the new shop across the road from him (taken over another business so replaced the sign). He didn't like opening up his curtains in the morning to a green sign and wanted to know what we were going to do about it :|

I would have offered to pop round and sew his curtains together

 

[movietub]

I have my personal address visible on my site but not my phone number because I do not have a landline and I hear nothing but bad things about putting your mobile up as it comes across un-professional.

Is my home address enough plus email of course?

You don't have to have a phone number, as you say, some people quite legitimatley don't have one!

That said whatever the cost of getting the landline up and running, you will almost always earn more as a result of people being able to call you. When we added our phone number below every product on our site the phone started ring almost non stop. Every third call leads to a sale - overall our sales doubled.

Definately worth doing, even though you don't have too.

 

[KidsBeeHappy]

We don't sell, so that's not our incentive for publishing the phone number.

However, what does happen is that customers that can't figure out how to use your website phone you up. You get 2 or 3 calls on the same issue, you go and re-write that bit of the website, you stop getting calls about that issue.

Well worth it.

 

[estwig]

Unofficially I have heard that Kent Trading Standards turn a blind eye to this in the case of small traders because of security implications.
The law, as with so many, is written with medium and large companies in mind.

(The blind eye might also be turned because they don't give a damn, and it's just more work.)

I haven't read the rest of this thread, sorry it's an old thorn that will probably never go away.


What Dawg says is true, I have a lotta dealings with Kent Trading Standards, they certainly know who I am for both good and bad reasons. Them civil servants do try and sympathise with the small business person, fair play to 'em, by small we ain't talking SME, we are talking one man bands. These businesses don't have the facilities to cope with the mad fruitcakes, that make up the general public on the whole, phoning them up every five fooking minutes.


Anyway, I'll leave this thread to all of you spouting about how you always answer the phone, blah, blah and are not one of the fruitcakes!

 

[KidsBeeHappy]

But see, the initial thing that bugs me, isn't that these websites do it. But that the customers then choose to spend their money on websites like this?

That's the bit that i just don't get. I would never spend even a squid on a website that didn't tell me the name of the business or person behind it. Why do they do it?????

 

[estwig]

But see, the initial thing that bugs me, isn't that these websites do it. But that the customers then choose to spend their money on websites like this?

That's the bit that i just don't get. I would never spend even a squid on a website that didn't tell me the name of the business or person behind it. Why do they do it?????

But that's not the point, it doesn't matter if you don't get it, it doesn't matter if I don't get it. What matters is, if someone else is making money from doing it this way, then it's worth consideration.

 

[david9108]

None of my websites mention me personally - I'd rather not be quite that personal but we do introduce the company on all our websites plus we have our telephone numbers, email and post office address. In our industry there are a lot of 'internet only' cowboys who bring the reputation of the whole industry down so we try to single ourselves out from them.

 

[estwig]

None of my websites mention me personally - I'd rather not be quite that personal but we do introduce the company on all our websites plus we have our telephone numbers, email and post office address. In our industry there are a lot of 'internet only' cowboys who bring the reputation of the whole industry down so we try to single ourselves out from them.

Why??

Are they making money?? Do you think they are making more than you, in terms of time saved on answering phone calls and money made??

Is there a point in being different, is there money in it??

 

[david9108]

I'm not sure I fully understand the question...the intnernet only cowboysi n the hot tub market sell poor quality hot tubs that go wrong very cheaply and they dont then repair them...in the worse scenarios they take the money and dont even supply the goods...thats why we aim to prove that we are not internet only and you can actually come and visit us in our showroom...I think that answers the question Estwig

 

[FireFleur]

As a buyer I would prefer that is less spent on things like telephone lines, and so the chance for a better deal is there.

It is like choosing a bank, if you go for the one who does the least marketing then you generally get a better deal.

It is like not selecting companies because they have plush office overheads, I don't want to pay for it, it will just get wrapped up in the costs.

The premise that people will buy because you have lots of contact details is I think not true, I am actually more likely to buy if you don't. I am looking at the payment gateway for reassurance, not the contact details.

Same with ISP, I choose the ones that try and hide the customer service number, because they will be more concerned about keeping the network going.

A number is useful in downtime, but I don't mind finding that, and I am more reassured that my fellow customers are not choosing an ISP because they want telephone support.

It is horses for courses though, and some businesses do find that a telephone line works better for them, or pop up contact details and more buy, but it is not a universal truth, and it doesn't do that much to combat fraud, in fact it can make the risk worse.

 

[movietub]

Why??

Are they making money?? Do you think they are making more than you, in terms of time saved on answering phone calls and money made??

Is there a point in being different, is there money in it??

Boxby,

Like I said earlier in the thread, less and less people will deal with such websites. eventually it probably won't be worth them staying open.

The reality is that half the websites that don't have a number are not that way because the owner is dodgy or pulling a swift one. They are probably just poorly thought out sites, designed on the cheap and the owner has no knowledge of how to add the number even if they wished too! Either that or its a very casual effort, and the owner is not a 'business brain' and therfore doesn't stp to think it may be a good idea - or in the case of a missing trading address, even legal.

The number of websites that don't show a number or address and are actually linked to a growing and developing online business must be fractional, they certainly ain't going anywhere great!

Me thinks you need a medicinal visit to the local pub, a few beers and you can stop worrying about these things

 

[estwig]

I'm not sure I fully understand the question...the intnernet only cowboysi n the hot tub market sell poor quality hot tubs that go wrong very cheaply and they dont then repair them...in the worse scenarios they take the money and dont even supply the goods...thats why we aim to prove that we are not internet only and you can actually come and visit us in our showroom...I think that answers the question Estwig

That's only your opinion.

Not 'avaing a go, don't get exited, just make you think about it.

Boxby,

I'm Keith, Sandra is the good looking one!!

 

[movietub]

As a buyer I would prefer that is less spent on things like telephone lines, and so the chance for a better deal is there.

It is like choosing a bank, if you go for the one who does the least marketing then you generally get a better deal.

Whilst I cannot tell you how you should feel, I can promise you (I could bet my business on this because I effectively already have!) that you are in the extreme minority. Although in some few cases the points you make are valid.

You have to think a little beyond the obvious effects of operating a phone number and staffing to answer it. Yes its an extra overhead, so that gets wrapped up in the cost of the products. If the world of business was extremely simplistic you would be right.

However there is always another angle. By offering a phone number and selling at low cost we are able to satisfy all people. We spend hours each day price checking to make sure we are the lowest, and answering calls to make sure no doubtful customers escape. As such we ran at a small loss for two years.

But as a result we became very popular and now place orders in excess of 35k a month with our main supplier. Do you really think that the bulk order discounts we recieve are not now more than enough to pay staff and phone costs? Of course we can! The vast majority of sites with no phone number could sell enough extra to cover the costs if they had one, even without our volume. For anyone serious about selling, the cost of picking up a phone is no cost at all. It's an earner.

 

[david9108]

That's only your opinion.

Not 'avaing a go, don't get exited, just make you think about it.



I'm Keith, Sandra is the good looking one!!

Actually that's not only my opinion...there are internet only companies that have been on watchdog and fully prosecuted by trading standards, there are horror stories all over the net - I'm not getting excited about anything - I'm simply speaking from my experience about the industry that I work in - Not entirely sure why you would take issue with my opinion?

 

[movietub]

I'm Keith, Sandra is the good looking one!!

Ahhhh, quoted the wrong post!

Meant to quote this one...

But see, the initial thing that bugs me, isn't that these websites do it. But that the customers then choose to spend their money on websites like this?

That's the bit that i just don't get. I would never spend even a squid on a website that didn't tell me the name of the business or person behind it. Why do they do it?????

---and here is my response again..---

Boxby,

Like I said earlier in the thread, less and less people will deal with such websites. eventually it probably won't be worth them staying open.

The reality is that half the websites that don't have a number are not that way because the owner is dodgy or pulling a swift one. They are probably just poorly thought out sites, designed on the cheap and the owner has no knowledge of how to add the number even if they wished too! Either that or its a very casual effort, and the owner is not a 'business brain' and therfore doesn't stp to think it may be a good idea - or in the case of a missing trading address, even legal.

The number of websites that don't show a number or address and are actually linked to a growing and developing online business must be fractional, they certainly ain't going anywhere great!

Me thinks you need a medicinal visit to the local pub, a few beers and you can stop worrying about these things

 

[estwig]

Actually that's not only my opinion...there are internet only companies that have been on watchdog and fully prosecuted by trading standards, there are horror stories all over the net - I'm not getting excited about anything - I'm simply speaking from my experience about the industry that I work in - Not entirely sure why you would take issue with my opinion?

I'm not taking issue and I respect your opinion, but it's just your opinion.

Plenty of companies get prosecuted all the time, who do have phone numbers.


I am trying to make a point that all types of business model work, those with phone numbers and those without. Just because one type works for you, doesn't make the other type wrong.

 

[david9108]

I totally accept what you are saying about differnet business models for different people - but I was merely saying we put all our contact details on and info about the company to appear differnet to compaines in our industry that have been causing problems and to prove that if they ever have a problem we exist in the real world as well as the virtual one and can come and see us at any point...still not 100% sure what the issue here is, the intention was only ever to talk about my situation.

 

[estwig]

I totally accept what you are saying about differnet business models for different people - but I was merely saying we put all our contact details on and info about the company to appear differnet to compaines in our industry that have been causing problems and to prove that if they ever have a problem we exist in the real world as well as the virtual one and can come and see us at any point...still not 100% sure what the issue here is, the intention was only ever to talk about my situation.

That's the problem mate.

"the intention was only ever to talk about my situation."