Fees

Blowfish · Jun 1, 2008

Hi all

I am just wondering what the average accountancy fees would be for a small business (say £45k turnover) the business is a sole trader basis, operating from home and using one vehicle (man in a van), there will be very little product sales and is more of a engineer/technician service/repair role. The accounts/bookkeeping are done using a CRM package. I have a quote of around £100 but I am unsure if this is fair or not, my initial thoughts are that it is a bit on the high side, but as I am new to this game thought I would get your input.

Jaydee · Jun 1, 2008

Blowfish said:
£100 ... is a bit on the high side

:| How much was you expecting to pay!

Fernhurst Solutions Ltd · Jun 1, 2008

£100, a bit on the high side ..... i presume off course that you are joking?

Blowfish · Jun 1, 2008

Please take note I have said I am new to this game and my initial thoughts were.... and as I was unsure I thought I would get some valuable insight from the members on this forum, By the way it's £100 per month! perhaps that would bring things into perspective

Fernhurst Solutions Ltd · Jun 1, 2008

£100, is that for accounts & tax return?

CassioAcc · Jun 1, 2008

£1,200 for a Sole Trader Self Assessment is a bit on the high side, especially if bookkeeping is not included. It does depends on the full suite of services. You should get a few quotes so you can compare like for like.

Alpha · Jun 1, 2008

Blowfish said:
Please take note I have said I am new to this game and my initial thoughts were.... and as I was unsure I thought I would get some valuable insight from the members on this forum, By the way it's £100 per month! perhaps that would bring things into perspective

Now £100 per month is very different to £100, so its more a question of accuracy than perspective (and you haven't said whether that includes vat or not?)

If your records were well kept then that fee would be on the high side however keeping records on a CRM system might have raised question marks(and costs).

We can only give average costs but even that has so many factors to be taken into account that it would often be rendered meaningless without having had the advantage of an in depth conversation with you (which I presume that whoever provided that quote did have).

Blowfish · Jun 1, 2008

Fernhurst Accountancy Solutions said:
£100, is that for accounts & tax return?

Yes it is.

Fernhurst Solutions Ltd · Jun 1, 2008

Hiya

I've sent you a PM

Alpha · Jun 1, 2008

Fernhurst Accountancy Solutions said:
Hiya

I've sent you a PM

Why

The OP hasn't asked you to PM him and I'm sure the membership would like to share in your wisdom

Or are you simply spamming, trying to tout for business via PM which is against the forum rules?

Fernhurst Solutions Ltd · Jun 1, 2008

(1) I wasn't spamming
(2) I never realised it was against the rules - but am sure it happens quite a lot

My question is why you feel the need to post a reply about it, rather than send a PM?

carey bookkeeping · Jun 1, 2008

Alan, I have to agree with you on your comment. There was a thread recently where someone stated that everyone had simply replied by saying 'I have PM'd you'.
I think its a real shame when people do this as the whole purpose of a forum is to share information.

Alpha · Jun 1, 2008

Fernhurst Accountancy Solutions said:
(1) I wasn't spamming
(2) I never realised it was against the rules - but am sure it happens quite a lot

My question is why you feel the need to post a reply about it, rather than send a PM?

We are getting more and more complaints both from posters and contributors alike as Judith has mentioned in her post.

Please read the rules of the forum especially.

http://www.ukbusinessforums.co.uk/forums/faq.php?faq=rules_using#faq_rules_privatemessages

This forum is primarily a forum for individuals to help and be helped.

Firstly the Op has asked a question which he wants answering.

If subsequently the discussion becomes more of a private nature then the OP will ask you to PM them.

If he then goes on to invite people to tender for his work then that is fair enough but offering to give a quote when non has been requested is spam and I'm afraid it has to be said publicly in the hope that everyone takes notice.

Sorry that you just happen to be the individual case at the moment but it has to be pointed out.

Blowfish · Jun 1, 2008

Well thanks for that, and I agree, although it was a PM of a quote, it was still interesting to find out what charges/services are provided as a ball park figure.

I have not started trading yet and the figures are just projections, I am getting more info on what services are provided etc. So I can compare like for like as suggested by CassioAcc

dp0848 · Jun 1, 2008

Hi Blowfish,

I think £1,200 per annum is very much on the high side for a sole trader with a turnover of about £45k.

By way of comparison (and I do hope that I don't get in to trouble with Alan for this!) my practice would charge about £350 / £400 for the same service plus something in the region of an additional £200 if the bookkeeping work needed to be done.

As Alan has pointed out, CRM is far from being the idea solution for keeping your books in. I'd strongly recommend that you research another method for keeping you books. Something like MYOB, Quickbooks or MS Accounting would probably serve you well. Even Excel would be better than a CRM.

Regards.

David.

Alpha · Jun 1, 2008

dp0848 said:
Hi Blowfish,
By way of comparison (and I do hope that I don't get in to trouble with Alan for this!) my practice would charge about £350 / £400 for the same service plus something in the region of an additional £200 if the bookkeeping work needed to be done.

David

it is not a case of getting in trouble with me its just a case of being aware of the rules of the forum and abiding by them (and yes I, other mods and admin are well aware that there are degrees and various attempts to push them as far as possible

)

In this case you are at least replying to the OP's actual question on the forum.

Many people have in the past left the forum because they have asked a simple question and been bombarded by people trying to sell their services via PM which really isn't fair on the individuals. We do not have a problem in people sending quotes and doing business via PM when requested to but we are not a sales forum

)

dp0848 · Jun 1, 2008

Thank you for the clarification Alan.

Regards.

David.

carey bookkeeping · Jun 1, 2008

Alan, I am glad you have written the above because i was just about to say the same.
I dont always reply to threads but every day i look at the forum and enjoy reading and learning from others experiences. We all try to promote ourselves in one way or another but a forum is for discussing things and gaining knowledge and i think its a shame when people can't adhere to this.
Right moaning over now

And yes i agree with David that with the information given the quote is on the high side and i would suggest that David figures are more realistic.

Fernhurst Solutions Ltd · Jun 1, 2008

I'm Also Sorry It Happened To Me And At The Moment Feel Very Unhappy About The Whole Situation. I Just Hope That The Next Person Who Does What I Did Gets The Same Treatment!!!!!

Call It Childish, Call It What You Like ..... I Just Hope What It Good For One Is Good For Us All.

Gillie · Jun 1, 2008

Andrew, a thought perhaps that come tomorrow you may regret the last post?

Jun 1, 2008

Blowfish said:
Hi all

I am just wondering what the average accountancy fees would be for a small business (say £45k turnover) the business is a sole trader basis, operating from home and using one vehicle (man in a van), there will be very little product sales and is more of a engineer/technician service/repair role. The accounts/bookkeeping are done using a CRM package. I have a quote of around £100 but I am unsure if this is fair or not, my initial thoughts are that it is a bit on the high side, but as I am new to this game thought I would get your input.

I don't get what you need an accountant for as a one man business ( man and van).I ran 3 vans a number of years ago and had no need for an accountant.?

Earl

Fernhurst Solutions Ltd · Jun 1, 2008

Gillie said:
Andrew, a thought perhaps that come tomorrow you may regret the last post?

Why? I made an honest mistake and instead of a PM explainign what I'd done wrong, I get make a public example of ..... I stand by what I say.

Blowfish · Jun 2, 2008

dp0848 said:
Hi Blowfish,

I think £1,200 per annum is very much on the high side for a sole trader with a turnover of about £45k.

By way of comparison (and I do hope that I don't get in to trouble with Alan for this!) my practice would charge about £350 / £400 for the same service plus something in the region of an additional £200 if the bookkeeping work needed to be done.

As Alan has pointed out, CRM is far from being the idea solution for keeping your books in. I'd strongly recommend that you research another method for keeping you books. Something like MYOB, Quickbooks or MS Accounting would probably serve you well. Even Excel would be better than a CRM.

Regards.

David.

Thanks very much for your reply exactly the type of reply I was after, I will have a look at bookkeeping software as you suggested.

Fernhurst Accountancy Solutions everyone can make a mistake, its been pointed out, and now everyone knows the situation, If you do spot something similar then inform the moderators. so lets move on.

Blowfish · Jun 2, 2008

sirearl said:
I don't get what you need an accountant for as a one man business ( man and van).I ran 3 vans a number of years ago and had no need for an accountant.?

Earl

Well yes it is something I am giving thought to, Some advice I have been given highly recommend an accountant but others like yourself do not. My initial thoughts are that I can just concentrate on the business while not getting embroiled in perhaps legal tax complications and after the first year or so, when I am comfortable in the running of the business focus more on the accountancy side of things to see if it is something I could manage. I bet there is a few differing opinions on your point though.

dp0848 · Jun 2, 2008

Blowfish said:
Thanks very much for your reply exactly the type of reply I was after, I will have a look at bookkeeping software as you suggested.

Have a quick look at MS Accounting first. The basic version, which will more than likely do for your needs, is free. It is quite a good package though it does run a little slow. If you need help setting it up or understanding how to use it please do feel free to PM me and I'll do what I can to help you.

You can download the software from here http://www.msofficeaccounting.co.uk/Express.aspx

Regards.

David.

dp0848 · Jun 2, 2008

sirearl said:
I don't get what you need an accountant for as a one man business ( man and van).I ran 3 vans a number of years ago and had no need for an accountant.?

Earl

In some respects Earl is right, you can do the books yourself. But equally I could write my own will or build an extension on my house or repair my car. But I don't because I'm not an expert in these areas. I use a solicitor, a builder or a mechanic. Like all things the professionals make a task look easy but there is always more to things than meet the eye. It is not without good reason that it takes many years to train as an accountant. The laws surrounding tax are complex and are constantly changing. An error resulting in an under payment of tax can lead to a fine and other penalties. An error resulting in an overpayment of tax is equally unpalatable. Using an accountant to do your accounts means that your accounts and returns are submitted by someone who is on top of all the latest rules and regulations. It means you will pay the right amount of tax.

Regards.

David.

taxattack · Jun 2, 2008

Blowfish said:
Hi all

I am just wondering what the average accountancy fees would be for a small business (say £45k turnover) the business is a sole trader basis, operating from home and using one vehicle (man in a van), there will be very little product sales and is more of a engineer/technician service/repair role. The accounts/bookkeeping are done using a CRM package. I have a quote of around £100 but I am unsure if this is fair or not, my initial thoughts are that it is a bit on the high side, but as I am new to this game thought I would get your input.

£100 (per month) sounds, on the face of it, very high to me, subject to your particular circumstances. Will you be vat registered? Or, to ask the relevant sub-question, will your customers be traders or consumers? (If the former it may well be worth registering).

Chris

Blowfish · Jun 2, 2008

taxattack said:
£100 (per month) sounds, on the face of it, very high to me, subject to your particular circumstances. Will you be vat registered? Or, to ask the relevant sub-question, will your customers be traders or consumers? (If the former it may well be worth registering).

Chris

No I wont be VAT registered and my customers will be consumers.

elaine@cheapaccounting · Jun 2, 2008

Shop around - talk to a few accountants and get quotes. have a look at the sticky from Dan on how to get an accountant.

Good luck with the business and I do think you are right to get help where you need to so that you can concentrate on the business - but I would say that

taxattack · Jun 2, 2008

sirearl said:
I don't get what you need an accountant for as a one man business ( man and van).I ran 3 vans a number of years ago and had no need for an accountant.?

Earl

There may be no actual need for an accountant, on compliance grounds, inasmuchas a record of income and expenditure may be kept and a compliant self-assessment returned using HMRC helpsheets.

However, an accountant should give you advice which may pay for itself many times over. For example in the OP's case it will be worth discussing whether vat registration is beneficial, and if so, should a special scheme be used; what basis year to use; whether operating as a company would be better than as a sole trader; the impact on tax credits; the pension situation; the influence of capital allowances on the van acquisition (buy/lease, new/second hand); claims for use of home, and much more besides.

Chris

taxattack · Jun 2, 2008

Blowfish said:
No I wont be VAT registered and my customers will be consumers.

Ok, in my view £100 a month looks even more expensive!

Chris

accountancyextra · Jun 2, 2008

taxattack said:
There may be no actual need for an accountant, on compliance grounds, inasmuchas a record of income and expenditure may be kept and a compliant self-assessment returned using HMRC helpsheets.

However, an accountant should give you advice which may pay for itself many times over. For example in the OP's case it will be worth discussing whether vat registration is beneficial, and if so, should a special scheme be used; what basis year to use; whether operating as a company would be better than as a sole trader; the impact on tax credits; the pension situation; the influence of capital allowances on the van acquisition (buy/lease, new/second hand); claims for use of home, and much more besides.

Chris

Well said Chris. A lot of business owners overlook these very points and miss out on lots of opportunities to keep more of what they earn!

I also think £100 per month is too much, but maybe the CRM system is what's hiking the price up. Have you asked the accountant if there is any way that you can lower the bill? How big is the practice (that can have a major influence on the size of fee charged)

Blowfish · Jun 2, 2008

accountancyextra said:
I also think £100 per month is too much, but maybe the CRM system is what's hiking the price up. Have you asked the accountant if there is any way that you can lower the bill? How big is the practice (that can have a major influence on the size of fee charged)

I will do some investigation into the CRM system and will check if this is an influence on the fee.

ignis · Jan 29, 2010

Could you tell me, please, what are the average fees now, as I see that this topic has not been updated for more appr. 2 years?
I want to start a new small business, probably, with significantly less than 68,000 py.

elaine@cheapaccounting · Jan 29, 2010

There is no average - fees vary hugely. See the sticky on how to select and accountant

ignis · Jan 29, 2010

elainec100 thank you! I've read that topic already. though I still thought that there should be at least some estimate summ to speak about.
As for now it is tabula rasa for me.

littlelady · Sep 11, 2010

Yeh I am a one woman business and am looking into doing my own final accounts and tax teturn next year, because I like to understand whats going on with it myself.

Blowfish said:
Well yes it is something I am giving thought to, Some advice I have been given highly recommend an accountant but others like yourself do not. My initial thoughts are that I can just concentrate on the business while not getting embroiled in perhaps legal tax complications and after the first year or so, when I am comfortable in the running of the business focus more on the accountancy side of things to see if it is something I could manage. I bet there is a few differing opinions on your point though.

littlelady · Sep 11, 2010

Yeh Im sure there is I am also quite undecided, but still want to understand the logistics of it all myself, because my business is very small just now and I really didnt need an accountant but they can be very helpful and I would say in the beginning, If you can find one that is helpful and reasonably priced then It is a very good idea to use one.

coolabhi · Dec 22, 2010

Hi

I am going to start a new company but I am not sure wheich accoutnant is gud for my business & how can I find the right & geniun person ....Please advise

Alpha said:
Why

The OP hasn't asked you to PM him and I'm sure the membership would like to share in your wisdom

Or are you simply spamming, trying to tout for business via PM which is against the forum rules?

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