Designers, Developers, Optimisers and Marketeers

franglix · Jun 3, 2007

An issue that raised its head in a thread/debate on best practices (SEO: Most Important Factors) was whether Web Designers should get involved in SEO or should leave the SEO specialists to worry about the issue. (I guess this also could extend to the crossover between Web Developers + Static html page Web Design, as well as reach to SEO and other forms of Internet Marketing.)

My experience - in relation to small business web site projects - is that people with specialisation in their own real-world business, needing to generate new business orders through the medium of the Internet, have challenges knowing the difference between the web worker specialisations. Is that true?

Working in the small business sector and the corresponding smaller budgets, I believe that a web worker assisting a real-world business should, as much as possible, aim to be multi-skilled across these domains. Not only that, I believe it is becoming increasingly unethical for a Web Designer or Developer or SEOr or Marketeer to claim their solution alone is all that a small business needs. It is equally unethical to keep silent about their limitations.

I am wondering what other people's feelings on the matter are? I would like to hear what small business people and paid web professionals think (please state the origin of your standpoint, and support your responses with evidence).

Many thanks.

Coding Monkey · Jun 3, 2007

Whilst I'm in partial agreement, I would ask: unethical how? If a business can only handle 100 orders through logistical reasons with no means of growing (with such businesses in existence), and through purely the use of SEO with a terrible website, they would receive 120 a day.

I may be reading your post wrong, but are you saying companies who go to web companies with a small budget should receive multiple skills? I think you'd be lucky to find such skills in just a normal web design business, let alone the lower end of it. If you're approaching the low end, most people will only have the budget for 1 resource, so the only unethical approach would be, as you say, to suggest your solution is the only one available.

exceldan · Jun 3, 2007

Hi franglix

You raise a valid point,

I would have to say that a web designer or SEO specialist cannot alone offer a total solution, I had to make the decision to drop web design completely a couple of years ago and concentrate solely on SEO as with any area of expertise (unless you are incredibly gifted) you cannot truly specialise in everything.

Although it would be a benefit to understand how other industries work but not to the extent of offering a service in them.

I would be sceptical of any individuals capability offering a wide range of services across two or more industries. Web design is a huge area to cover on it's own as is SEO and both industries are moving at a swift pace and it's a full time operation keeping up to date with new trends and techniques.

I think there is too little time in the day and too much to learn to cover more than one area with any degree of competence.

My own solution which I am working on with individuals from this very forum is to set up strategic alliances, I work with one or more web designers on a website, let them handle the design and look of the site and I can focus on the SEO. That way our client can benefit from a comprehensive service delivered by people who know what they are doing, while still keeping the budget to a minimum. Plus I build a new working relationship which may lead to more business in the future.

But for the sake of the client it should still remain in their best interest to have a good understanding of what is going on and why although it wouldn't be practical for them to learn the complete ins and outs of web working as they themselves have their own business to run.

All the best, Dan - websiteexcel.co.uk

P.S. one of those strategic alliances is re designing my website as I am too busy with SEO to do it myself! Should be finished next month.

FunkyBears · Jun 3, 2007

I think many small businesses concentrate on the aethetics and funtionality of their web sites and find once built the web developer has paid little attention to optimising their site for search, hence my post SEO:Most important factors. The post was promted by a document Dan from websiteexcel had sent me regarding one of my sites. I had originally directed my developer to some of the numerous sites regargiding SEO. As soon as he recieved Dan's document he called me up by messenger and said:
" At last something I can understand"
Although is is impossible and unpractical to learn the complete ins and outs of
web working it's favourable to have at least a basic understanding of what is required. There are many differences of opinion on what constitutes good SEO but I direct my web developer to this and other posts on this forum.
Tom is right, and Web developers should be up front and if they don't have the necessary skills they should tell the client and suggest they seek the help of a dedicated expert to advise on SEO. I think all to many times the Web Developer may overlook communicating this to the client.
Thanks Dan,Tom, Sir Earl, Tin and all the others who responded to my original post and thanks Franlix for this post. I have learnt to appreciate the great value this forum provides.
Paul

Tin · Jun 3, 2007

franglix said:
An issue that raised its head in a thread/debate on best practices (SEO: Most Important Factors) was whether Web Designers should get involved in SEO or should leave the SEO specialists to worry about the issue. (I guess this also could extend to the crossover between Web Developers + Static html page Web Design, as well as reach to SEO and other forms of Internet Marketing.)

My standpoint is that seo, web design/development and internet marketing go hand in hand, they are interlinked. I believe that any web designer/developer should first establish if a client wants/needs optimisation and then should design/develop a site with one eye firmly on seo and the marketing side of things. If they are not multi-disciplined then they should, as exceldan suggests, work closely with an seo company to ensure that the client receives a fully functioning highly placed website. I have had too many clients come to me wanting/needing to be at the top of google only to find that the all singing/dancing website they have paid thousands for will never make it to the top due to design issues.

To my mind, Internet marketing is a complete package, to gain a foothold on any market you must have all the pieces in place:

1. A well designed, easy to use website
2. Positioned at the top of major search engines
3. Once traffic is arriving at the site - a significant conversion rate

You won't achieve one without the other, and you should not put one above the other. The seo and ultimate customer experience should be an intrinsic part of the initial design.

Jun 3, 2007

franglix said:
An issue that raised its head in a thread/debate on best practices (SEO: Most Important Factors) was whether Web Designers should get involved in SEO or should leave the SEO specialists to worry about the issue. (I guess this also could extend to the crossover between Web Developers + Static html page Web Design, as well as reach to SEO and other forms of Internet Marketing.)

My experience - in relation to small business web site projects - is that people with specialisation in their own real-world business, needing to generate new business orders through the medium of the Internet, have challenges knowing the difference between the web worker specialisations. Is that true?

Working in the small business sector and the corresponding smaller budgets, I believe that a web worker assisting a real-world business should, as much as possible, aim to be multi-skilled across these domains. Not only that, I believe it is becoming increasingly unethical for a Web Designer or Developer or SEO'r or Marketeer to claim their solution alone is all that a small business needs. It is equally unethical to keep silent about their limitations.

I am wondering what other people's feelings on the matter are? I would like to hear what small business people and paid web professionals think (please state the origin of your standpoint, and support your responses with evidence).

Many thanks.

well franglix I can only comment on my own methods and ideas

I have limited web design skills compared with most pro designers but fairly honed SEO skills.

My own belief is that the SEO has to have control of the non graphic side of the website in order to achieve the best SE ranking.

The existing sites that I have taken on to SEO have invariably been much harder work, usually involving a partial or complete rebuild not because they did not look OK but because they could not be SEO friendly.

Also I work on the basis that I have to have full access to a business's methods and usualy to there pricing structure including profit margins.

The reason for this is so I can biase towards there most profitable products in my SEO.

I also need to know as much as possible about there business in practicle terms I.E what the particular part does and where it fits in a machine e.t.c

The more I know about a business the more successfull it is likely to be.

Now having said all that I only work with business that accept me as a partner in the website so I may be unusual in that area.

As to it bing unethical to not disclose that you do not have certain skills or knowledge I think it is probably stupid as much as unethical .Many areas I have had to say I don't know how to do that ,so we just pay someone who does

And as to your comment in another post that I seem to have posted quite a lot in a short time .I spend a great deal of time sitting at a computer proccessing orders E.T.C.

So being involved in the lively debates that go on in UKBF is both informative and entertaining

Earl

directmarketingadvice · Jun 4, 2007

It's an interesting question.

Here are 5 things that a website might need:

(1) design

(2) programming

(3) persuasive text/copy

(4) a marketing plan

(5) SEO

Now, what's the liklihood that someone could do all 5 of these to a professional level?

What I find is that businesses are happy to put down a lot of money for design (and, where necessary, programming), but will throw away most of their profits by doing their own copy (or having a designer do it).

Also, I'd imagine - I'm not a web designer, so I've no direct experience of this - that many of the businesses who pay for design don't think about the marketing until it's live.

IMO, what would make more sense would be to think of the website as a marketing channel ... something that's there to generate sales or enquiries ... so it's written and designed with that in mind, rather than trying to work out how to "bolt the marketing on" once the site's finished.

Steve

FunkyBears · Jun 4, 2007

Yes I totally agree with you Steve but I know through my experience and I'm sure others have done the same is to use the 'bolt on marketing approach' Perhaps before developing a website 'A Website Marketing Plan' should be put in place. Hey perhaps thats' a niche area that one of you Marketing guys should develop. It could save guys like me a fortune in time and money!
Paul

Jun 4, 2007

SteveGibson said:
It's an interesting question.

Here are 5 things that a website might need:

(1) design

(2) programming

(3) persuasive text/copy

(4) a marketing plan

(5) SEO

Now, what's the liklihood that someone could do all 5 of these to a professional level?

What I find is that businesses are happy to put down a lot of money for design (and, where necessary, programming), but will throw away most of their profits by doing their own copy (or having a designer do it).

Also, I'd imagine - I'm not a web designer, so I've no direct experience of this - that many of the businesses who pay for design don't think about the marketing until it's live.

IMO, what would make more sense would be to think of the website as a marketing channel ... something that's there to generate sales or enquiries ... so it's written and designed with that in mind, rather than trying to work out how to "bolt the marketing on" once the site's finished.

Steve

Totaly agree steve ,I think that most companies think that having a website alone will bring them wealth,and this attitude is possibly encouraged by some web designers,who are only interested in building a site for a fee.

or who they themselves have no idea of the importance of proper marketing to a sites success be it PPC , SEO or other forms of promotion

before I get blasted to hell .I did say some web designers

As to your question about the 5 levels .No not many individuals have all five skills ,but I work with some companies that do have all those skills .

Most SEO have no,s 3,4,5 as part of there trade and usualy a fairly high level of HTML ,but not a lot of graphical design skill or art ability.

I can only advise all web designers to pay great attention to Marketing in all its forms or be at a disadvantage to the companies that do.

Earl

directmarketingadvice · Jun 4, 2007

Perhaps before developing a website 'A Website Marketing Plan' should be put in place

Depending on how it's approached, it could be a good idea ... or it could be a terrible idea.

The website should have its place within the whole marketing structure of the business, but shouldn't be viewed as something that's "out there on its own."

Even a business that does all its lead/sales generation through its site still has all the other aspects of marketing to think about that will follow on from the initial contact but will be done off-site

e.g. making offers to the existing client base (e.g. by email)

In days of yore, I was a computer programmer and when we designed systems, we needed to work out how and where they would fit into our clients' business, how the systems would be used and how they could be designed to handle future changes in the business.

In parcticular, we had to think about the data coming in, what we going to do with it, and what was going to happen to the data going out.

If you change "data" to "prospects", a site should be designed with an understanding of:

-who the prospects are going to be
-what they're going to be looking for
-how pre-sold they will be before they arrive
-what state of mind they'll be in
-whether they're ready to buy now or still looking for info
-what selling steps are going to be required to sell them
-whether those steps can be achieved by one web visit
-what you're going to do with these people once they've bought/enquired

(these are just a few of the factors)

Without knowing these things (or having a good guess at them), how can you know what a site is meant to achieve?

Steve

awebapart.com · Jun 4, 2007

To answer the OP, unfortunately even the term 'web design' can mean different things to different people, to some it can mean the graphic design for the look of a website, to others it can mean everything involved in getting a fully working website running and having an effective web presence. A solution provider should, at the very least to keep legal, make it clear what they are providing and what they are not providing.

IMO, for any business thinking about the web, they will find it a lot more useful talking to someone who has a good understanding of all the relevant factors involved: e.g. business, market, finance, marketing, legal, branding, graphic design, copywriting, development, usability, SEO, etc. The correct balance of these factors will be different for each client, and it is up to the solution provider to create a solution which addresses these factors in the right balance.

So yes I agree with the OP that a solution provider should be multi-skilled. But not just that, they should be able to understand their client's needs, have helicopter vision to see the big picture, and have enough common sense, experience and talent to find a solution which provides the right balance across the required factors. These are important traits for any solution provider to have, not just those working in the web field.

Jun 4, 2007

awebapart.com said:
To answer the OP, unfortunately even the term 'web design' can mean different things to different people, to some it can mean the graphic design for the look of a website, to others it can mean everything involved in getting a fully working website running and having an effective web presence. A solution provider should, at the very least to keep legal, make it clear what they are providing and what they are not providing.

IMO, for any business thinking about the web, they will find it a lot more useful talking to someone who has a good understanding of all the relevant factors involved: e.g. business, market, finance, marketing, legal, branding, graphic design, copywriting, development, usability, SEO, etc. The correct balance of these factors will be different for each client, and it is up to the solution provider to create a solution which addresses these factors in the right balance.

So yes I agree with the OP that a solution provider should be multi-skilled. But not just that, they should be able to understand their client's needs, have helicopter vision to see the big picture, and have enough common sense, experience and talent to find a solution which provides the right balance across the required factors. These are important traits for any solution provider to have, not just those working in the web field.

Paul I agree entirely ,but in the real world there are not many people about who have all those abilities ,and if they do they tend to be a bit on the expensive side.

My experience of small to medium business's is that the clients more often that not ,do not have much idea as to how the Internet works regarding sales and promotion,

Bearing that in mind how can they ask the right questions?

Are they not like the rest of us when visiting a lawyer ,at our mercy for guidence.

Earl

awebapart.com · Jun 4, 2007

sirearl said:
My experience of small to medium business's is that the clients more often that not ,do not have much idea as to how the Internet works regarding sales and promotion,

Bearing that in mind how can they ask the right questions?

Business owners shouldn't have to worry about asking the right questions when looking for a web solution except 'will it solve my problem'. When looking for a solution they should not be focused on the solution or answers, they should first be focused on the problem the solution is to address. It is up to the solution provider to understand the problem and come up with an appropriate solution. If anything it should be the solution provider asking most of the questions. Once an understanding of the problem has been gained, then the solution provider can say to the client 'for your particular problem, these are the kind of questions you should be asking about the solution, and these are the answers'.

This involves a lot of trust.

Initially, the only questions a business owner should be asking are: 'do I trust this solution provider and if I do trust them, what am I basing this trust on'.

This doesn't have to be blind trust, and trust can be gained in any number or combination of ways: communication, psychology, rapport, references, examples of other similar work, history, t&cs, guarantees, payment terms, try before you buy schemes, client-supplier contracts, etc.

sirearl said:
Are they not like the rest of us when visiting a lawyer ,at our mercy for guidence.

If I needed a lawyer, I would speak to a number of lawyers and end up choosing the one I trusted the most based upon:
1. how quickly they understood my problem
2. their track record in dealing with such problems
3. what they said and the way they said it
4. what other people have said about them
5. how they talked to me in plain english
6. how they didn't blind me with science or legal jargon

Jun 4, 2007

awebapart.com said:
This involves a lot of trust.

Initially, the only questions a business owner should be asking are: 'do I trust this solution provider and if I do trust them, what am I basing this trust on'.

This doesn't have to be blind trust, and trust can be gained in any number or combination of ways: communication, psychology, rapport, references, examples of other similar work, history, t&cs, guarantees, payment terms, try before you buy schemes, client-supplier contracts, etc.

If I needed a lawyer, I would speak to a number of lawyers and end up choosing the one I trusted the most based upon:
1. how quickly they understood my problem
2. their track record in dealing with such problems
3. what they said and the way they said it
4. what other people have said about them
5. how they talked to me in plain english
6. how they didn't blind me with science or legal jargon

I again agree with you Paul in an ideal world

But most business's only want one solution "how do we make more money"

And what you would do is not relevent ,you are obviously a highly intelligent and astute person.

that is not my experience of the average business owner,there's a range from people like yourself to some of people I have dealt with who could neither read or write but were still running highly profitable business's.

Now as to the web designer providing the questions and the solutions for there client.How is it that for every successfull site there are thousand of sites that don't earn a bean yet are proffessionaly built sites?

you are absolutly right in what you say,but the real world is not so ethical or we would not have so many post from business in trouble with there proffessionaly built sites

Earl

franglix · Jun 4, 2007

Thanks for all the responses so far - I am reading with much interest... of course I am not at my base desk a lot this week to come back on every point (nor should I perhaps), but I wonder at this point if there is anyone lurking at this coming from the 'I hired a web worker and my expectations were... and the results were different...' direction?
Thanks again.

PeteYoung · Jun 4, 2007

Think I may have inadvertantly started this thread with my comments on the SEO: Most Important Factors thread, however moving it forward, found this article on ISEDB which seemed to fit this thread somewhat perfectly

http://www.isedb.com/db/articles/16...-Friendly-is-NOT-Search-Engine-Optimized.html

awebapart.com · Jun 5, 2007

sirearl said:
But most business's only want one solution "how do we make more money"
...
How is it that for every successfull site there are thousand of sites that don't earn a bean yet are proffessionaly built sites?

Websites are created for many reasons, not just for direct money making, get rich quick reasons. In a lot of cases, e.g. most business brochure style websites, they are created for marketing reasons (business promotion, information, image, etc). They are not direct money makers, but they are supposed to help indirectly, as is the aim of most marketing activities. However as with most marketing, advertising, PR activities, etc a business can spend their budget wisely resulting indirectly in improvements to the bottom line, and a business can also squander its budget resulting in no improvement to the bottom line of a business.

Jun 5, 2007

awebapart.com said:
Websites are created for many reasons, not just for direct money making, get rich quick reasons. In a lot of cases, e.g. most business brochure style websites, they are created for marketing reasons (business promotion, information, image, etc). They are not direct money makers, but they are supposed to help indirectly, as is the aim of most marketing activities. However as with most marketing, advertising, PR activities, etc a business can spend their budget wisely resulting indirectly in improvements to the bottom line, and a business can also squander its budget resulting in no improvement to the bottom line of a business.

My omission Paul I forgot about the glossy brochure sites ,and those that are for information purposes or amusement .To focused on trying to get rich quickly or even slowly.

Search

Search

Designers, Developers, Optimisers and Marketeers

franglix

More options

Coding Monkey

More options

exceldan

More options

FunkyBears

More options

Tin

More options

More options

directmarketingadvice

More options

FunkyBears

More options

More options

directmarketingadvice

More options

awebapart.com

More options

More options

awebapart.com

More options

More options

franglix

More options

PeteYoung

More options

awebapart.com

More options

More options

Latest Articles

Cookie Consent

Essential

Analytics

Marketing

Designers, Developers, Optimisers and Marketeers

franglix

Coding Monkey

exceldan

franglix

PeteYoung