Let down by the courts!!!!!

estwig · Jul 17, 2009

We have been badly let down by the legal system........

April 08, we complete a full rewire and new boiler/heating system on a property, invoice for the final balance of £3,200.00, they don't pay. We start proceedings with HMCS Moneyclaim, finally have our day in court two weeks ago and we win, £3,200.00 plus £715.00 costs and interest. The defendant then offers to pay £25.00 a month, we say no we want our money. I did a well worded letter explaining how we are only a small buisness, we have a morgage, 2 kids and bills to pay.

We have just receievd a letter from the court, the defednant has to pay us £130.00 a month. Yea right, they will pay this for the first couple of months, then defualt, then we go back to court, then they pay £50.00 a month and so on.

Even the legal system, the courts of the land, Great british justice will not support us in getting what is rightly owed to us. What chance do we have of running a sustainable business???

We are out, this is the final straw, the domestic building game is dead as far as we are concerned.

If you are offering services to the domestic consumer market, no one gives a monkeys if you get paid or not. Over the coming few years, there is gonna be a marked decline in the standard of work offered to the domestic market, as more and more people don't pay, more and more businesses will either go to the wall, or like us, get out. This will leave the bodgers, the cowboys and the nieve, to service the market.

It will do downhill quickly, until the legal system offers some support to decent tradesmen and small buisnesses.

The downhill spiral is well underway!!!

Deleted member 9840 · Jul 17, 2009

Sorry to hear this Keith, what will you do now?
Only a very small part of my business is B to C and i have been very fortunate in that i have never had a bad customer in that market.

Steve

FE · Jul 17, 2009

Why did they not pay? change in their circumstances? neer had the money in thefirst place? disputed the invoice or quality of work?

My understanding is that unless you already have a relationship with the tradesman most, after agreeing the price, want a depost before work commences so as to reduce the risk in the domestic market?

vvaannmmaann · Jul 17, 2009

Seems this guy has the right answer,and the court agreed with him!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...15-000-handiwork-customer-fails-pay-bill.html

Richie N · Jul 17, 2009

The courts are a joke, I have had numerous problems with them...all they want to do is take more money from you everytime there is an issue and do very little for it.

FE · Jul 17, 2009

vvaannmmaann said:
Seems this guy has the right answer,and the court agreed with him!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...15-000-handiwork-customer-fails-pay-bill.html

Agree thik i would have gone back and de-wired the boiler. Not sure where i would stand legally but seems harsh if the courts have awarded judgement

WordPress Web Designers · Jul 17, 2009

There is no justice. My friend who is a barrister keeps telling me this and I guess he should know.

We wanted to take a builder to court who wrecked my kitchen extension but because he has no money and 4 kids there'll be no point. He'll get to pay £10 per week and then default. It's standard practice. I know this doesn't help. But does it help to know we're all suffering the same problems . . . I guess not really.

Liz

JEREMY HAWKE · Jul 17, 2009

As a supplier to consumers you get no support

As an employer you get no support in fact its your job to constantly sponsor the employee

As a business in the communtiy that your company puts its money back into you get no support .

I think once you have accepted the fact you are completly on your own you will be OK

Lime One · Jul 17, 2009

It is often more effective to get a private debt collector involved who will use attendance and persistance before court action , in my view. The courts are indeed a toothless tiger more often than not and do allow lengthy periods of time for bad debts. For debts over £750 I am always inclined to deal with initial communication re insolvency/house charge 'discussions' with an application to the High Court on CCJ for more teeth on enforcement.

You really have to wait now for a default then strike in hard using another method of enforcement.

We have had loads of building work done and it was, truly never a problem to pay a good chunk of deposit and all materials.

An Oasis · Jul 17, 2009

JEREMY HAWKE said:
...I think once you have accepted the fact you are completly on your own you will be OK

Sadly a very true statement. This thread has made me appreciate the fact that we have some fantastic clients.

estwig · Jul 17, 2009

It's crazy, commercial work is so different, so many more rights, more chance of getting your money.

Anyway I am out of the building game, gonna raise some capital against our home and start flipping* small terrace houses.

*Flipping houses, buy a run down house cheap, do it up and sell, hopefully at a profit.

*Lexxy* · Jul 17, 2009

very sorry to hear this Keith.

from my own experience in the past (worked at our local water company in credit control) taking court action against consumers was the easy peasy part, getting payment out of 95% of the buggas afterwards was nigh on impossible, even if you went back to court for further action (attachment of earnings, garnishee, warrants etc.)

taking a Ltd. business to court seems to get quick results (unless they are about to go pop) as they can't/don't want a judgment registered against them as it causes too many problems.

looks like your customer has provided a statement of earnings & they've been classed as a 'can't pay' instead of a 'won't pay'.

even if you've gone down the court route already, is there any way it can be passed to an external collection agency now instead of repeated trips back to court in the future when they no doubt default?

Jul 17, 2009

Sorry to hear this K, not your first time either being let down by the bloomin punters

It is terrible that someone who takes a pride in his work, does a damn good job, and only then to get shafted because people are generally less and less honest/trustworthy.

I like the 'debt collector' idea from Limeone, it would at least let someone else take the hassle on of chasing these type of people.

Good luck in the future direction mate, you'll succeed I have no doubt.

Tej · Jul 17, 2009

Don't give up. You seem to have quite a few years experience in the building game. Don't let one a*seh*le beat you up!!!
I note you mention that the invoice was for the final balance. So hopefully you got something out of it and the £3200 was not the actual loss.( not counting the time and effort involved)

Get going into the bathroom works you mentioned!

and flipping too.. an extra string to your bow

Good luck in whatever you decide to do

Regards

Fuzzy · Jul 17, 2009

Fuzzy sending you a hug Keith

....Courts imo are just useless, do nowt but shuffle paperwork and take your money, in all my years running my previous business, I never once got any joy from the courts. Now we ask for pennies up front.

Wishing you all the best

Moot Design · Jul 17, 2009

The courts are a joke and i have had the same sort of experiences. Our case got adjourned 3 times and took over 2years to actually get to court.
Now that we have won we need to take him to court to get him to pay. Same situation but worse as the amounts were in the 10s of thousands...

Anyway, enough of this. Do you do water based under floor heating? I f so where are you based.

I promise we will pay you!!!

Mister B · Jul 17, 2009

Sorry to hear this Keith.

Is there no way that you can transfer the debit into a charge over the property so that in the event of a sale, you are aoutomatically paid? No idea if it's possible or not but for that kind of money, I wouldn't take it lying down.

Mister B

Fuzzy · Jul 17, 2009

Thing is, even though deep down you don't want to let this go (and why should you!), sometimes you are just throwing good money after bad

estwig · Jul 17, 2009

Thanks for all the kind comments.

I've not given up on this debt just yet, have written a strongly worded letter to the court, stating we will not accept instalments and demanding we get paid. I don't hold out much hope.

In the meantime on a brighter note. I am researching the confusing world of bridging finance, to flip houses with.

Cornish Steve · Jul 17, 2009

If the courts allow installment payments, they should face the risk and financial pain, not you. In particular, they should be obliged to pay you the full amount up-front, accept responsibility for collecting payments (with appropriate finance and administrative fees), and then sell their new 'contract' to a debt collection agency. Maybe this would instill a little more responsibility when issuing judgments.

Robert Wheeler · Jul 17, 2009

Cornish Steve said:
If the courts allow installment payments, they should face the risk and financial pain, not you. In particular, they should be obliged to pay you the full amount up-front, accept responsibility for collecting payments (with appropriate finance and administrative fees), and then sell their new 'contract' to a debt collection agency. Maybe this would instill a little more responsibility when issuing judgments.

I would agree with this and extend it. If (after careful analysis), the debtor is deemed to be a 'won't pay' rather than a 'can't pay', they should be put into a camp and forced to work labour until they have paid off the debt.

CKG · Jul 17, 2009

What a ****ter.

Same reason as I packed it all in. Decided I couldn't be arsed having to beg and be eternally grateful for every scrap of money I earn.

Just do your own developments. Most builders I know round my way that do this make an absolute fortune.

dubaitrading · Jul 18, 2009

thats sad news.. work your butt off to earn an honest living and than people take the p**s.. ive been in a similar situation and can sympahise with you.

the fact is that the laws of this country are to be strictly followed when the government feels its been owed money but for the general public.. well, the law states that they can summon your customer to court, fine them, but theres nothing they can. or maybe will do to actually make them pay the full amount even if they have the funds.

Jul 18, 2009

A real fury thing when this happens.

I got taken for 2k in 1970.A hard lesson

since then cash up front.

The only credit I give is if you can do your 12 times tables.

The whole credit thing is crap,hence why we are in the mire now.

Earl

Esk247 · Jul 18, 2009

well garages say you have to pay before getting your keys back so why should this be any different?

people are weird arent they! I've lost nearly £1,000 in unpaid invoices over the last 3 years. Not because people can't pay but because they won't pay and it's such small amounts that there isn't any point in even taking it to court yet my business has suffered as a result..especially in the early days when some twit failed to pay £300 and i was left with an additional £50 charge for web hosting that had to come out of my own personal bank account.

if they take there car to a garage though it's funny how they dont seem to mind handing over £300 for a set of new tyres...yet they won't pay £50 for hosting and seem to think people like us, that provide a service, are there to be taken for a ride!

the amount you've said isn't even a huge amount is it! ofcourse they can flippin pay it they just can't be bothered and you won't be the only one thats owed money from these people.

estwig · Jul 18, 2009

I may have a cunning plan to get my money.................

The first instalment of £130.00 is due to us by the 16th August, if by some unfortunate means

, that payment does not reach us by the due date.

That will mean they have defaulted on the agreement, to pay in instalments, so we send in the debt collectors for the full amount.

We might be down, but we ain't out yet!!!

Kirsty · Jul 18, 2009

The courts do indeed let small businesses down.
We had a company who owe us money and they just refuse to pay even though they have told the small claims court that they have over 2,000 pounds in their bank account.
The court ballif has been and they refuse to let her in. They offer 50 pounds a month and never made a payment. We have had to take further action but I am not holding my breath

Techy · Jul 19, 2009

The legal (and government) system in this country is a joke, as you all know!

I created our company website in a week (whilst learning from sctratch how to do it). Had a website 'developer' come to see me a few years down the line telling me it 'needs updating'. 6months down the line (£500 poorer), was ordered to pay an extra £500 because they created two websites as a defence after I filed my claim, all because I forgot to turn up at court!

Besides the obvious lesson of being better organised, what is fair in paying a pikey!

For all website 'developers' yes we did set defined requirements (for a basic site), provided all text / images and responded to mock-ups in great detail

Faith28 · Jul 19, 2009

Good luck with the next stage of this saga. So awful to have happened to you and completely understand your sentiments to leave the domestic market.

You've reminded me to chase up unpaid invoices!!

mobyme · Jul 19, 2009

estwig said:
I may have a cunning plan to get my money.................

The first instalment of £130.00 is due to us by the 16th August, if by some unfortunate means, that payment does not reach us by the due date.

That will mean they have defaulted on the agreement, to pay in instalments, so we send in the debt collectors for the full amount.

We might be down, but we ain't out yet!!!

I understand the sentiment and want to advise caution. Galling though it may be, your best option really is to work through the Courts.
Contriving to make it seem like your debtor has "defaulted" could be a criminal offence. (In fact it is)
If however your debtor does "really" default, go back to the Court and ask for the judgement for the scheduled repayment to be set aside and that an order for the immediate repayment of the whole amount be made.
Without this order any debt collector would be acting illegally anyway; regardless of what you may have been led to believe.
In actual fact putting your debt collectors in early might well result in the debtor returning to the court pleading "undue hardship" resulting in a reduced repayment schedule.
As already pointed out there is also nothing to stop you taking a "charge" against your debtors property which means that should they ever sell; you would be guaranteed payment.

Geoff T · Jul 19, 2009

^^^^ agreed - tread carefully!!

Geoff T · Jul 19, 2009

Cornish Steve said:
If the courts allow installment payments, they should face the risk and financial pain, not you. In particular, they should be obliged to pay you the full amount up-front, accept responsibility for collecting payments (with appropriate finance and administrative fees), and then sell their new 'contract' to a debt collection agency. Maybe this would instill a little more responsibility when issuing judgments.

Now HERE's an idea with some potential! A Central Govt funded system whereby any judgement debt is automatically 'bought from' the winner of the case...

Whoever wins the case walks away from court with their cheque in full payment, and the loser gets to deal with a centralised debt collection/ court agency! I LIKE IT! That would free up some cash for the system!

Nice One Steve!

ps - they'd never go for it - they're still trying to clear the LAST ton of toxic debts!

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Let down by the courts!!!!!

Deleted member 9840

Lime One

Fuzzy

Fuzzy

CKG

dubaitrading

Esk247

Techy