Legality of sharing a blacklist of customers?

[scm5436]

Hi,

I realise this may be a can of worms - what with data protection, and possibly libelous comments - but would it be possible to set up a list containing the following information?

Postcode, house number, surname, comment, date of comment

And then have that list available to any retailers that subscribe to the service (whether it be free or paid).

The idea would be that the 'subscribers' would be able to enter comments on to the database about 'problem customers'. And then other subscribers can, either manually or automatically, compare the list to the orders they receive so that any matches are flagged.

They would then be able to read the comments made by other merchants and decide whether or not to proceed with the order.

The comments may include things like 'customer was abusive to staff', 'customer refused/failed to accept delivery', 'a signature was obtained at the address but customer claims it was not received', 'customer purchased a halloween costume just before halloween, then returned it shortly after for a refund as "un-used"' etc.

In other words, those annoying customers that p**s us about and cost us money through no fault of our own. Then they go on to the next poor sucker.

If the comments were made traceable (to the company that made the comment), and subscribers were informed only to state fact and that they may be liable to action by the customer if they entered anything untrue then would that cover things legally?

What about the data protection act - would that allow it?

Anything else to consider?

Anyone out there fancy setting up such a system...

 

[craiga1971]

I think it is fraught with difficulties and problems and would be open to misuse by dodgy companies.

What is one company's "problem" customer is another company's customer with a "high level of attention to detail".

Craig

 

[scm5436]

Sure, but at least they can read the comment and decide if it's a fussy retailer or a fussy customer. They can make an informed choice based on problems that others have encountered with the same customer.

 

[GreenLaser]

Essentially is this not what experian do ? except instead of peoples opinions you get result in numbers ?

Allowing people to read comments ...PHEW ..what a can of worms that would be .....if you roll with that website i suggest you get yourself a very good lawyer and a big bank book with cash in it to pay the lawsuits.

Its a very obvious way to down a comeptitor !

Nice idea , problems of implementation would outweight advantages

 

[scm5436]

Wouldn't have though experian did anything like that.

Again not sure how it could be used to attack a competitor?

But their shouldn't be lawsuits if the entries are factual. And wouldn't it be like facebook etc? ie. the contributors would be liable rather than the site which is simply 'facilitating' the sharing of information?

And think of it less of a 'blacklist' and more of an 'opporunity for retailers to share their experiences'...

 

[Steve Thornbury]

There are many many reasons why companies can't or wont pay This is fraut with danger!

 

Mmmmmm i am sure i have come across a website similar to this before but cannot for the life in me think of the name and have looked on google but can't think.

One thing i would say is how would you promote the site? How would businesses know to come to you to find out if there new customer is on the "blacklist".

A credit check normally suffices.

 

[scm5436]

There are many many reasons why companies can't or wont pay This is fraut with danger!

What I'm talking about is a database/forum/website about problem customers, not other businesses or competitors. And nothing to do with anyone paying anything or not.

Maybe I should have been more specific and say it's about problem CONSUMERS - I don't give a rats ass about businesses that purchase from me as I can word my terms and conditions in such a way as to make them pay for messing me about (ie. restocking fees, charges for failed deliveries etc)

The problem here is CONSUMERS. Some are just a nusciance by accident, some are just a pain by nature, some are just plain stupid and some are so clued up on the Distance Selling Regs that they exploit the rules for their own benefit.

And yes I know this is a minefield, which is why I posted it in the legal section where I was hoping to get some legal opinions on it.

 

What I'm talking about is a database/forum/website about problem customers, not other businesses or competitors. And nothing to do with anyone paying anything or not.

Maybe I should have been more specific and say it's about problem CONSUMERS - I don't give a rats ass about businesses that purchase from me as I can word my terms and conditions in such a way as to make them pay for messing me about (ie. restocking fees, charges for failed deliveries etc)

The problem here is CONSUMERS. Some are just a nusciance by accident, some are just a pain by nature, some are just plain stupid and some are so clued up on the Distance Selling Regs that they exploit the rules for their own benefit.

And yes I know this is a minefield, which is why I posted it in the legal section where I was hoping to get some legal opinions on it.

Sorry i misunderstood completely!

 

[scm5436]

no problem, looks like everyone did - which means it was my fault for not being clear. You know how it is - when you're writing it you know what it's about so it just seems obvious... until someone else reads it...

 

One thing i would say is how would you promote the site? How would businesses know to come to you to find out if there new customer is on the "blacklist"

This still stands though

 

[SillyJokes]

It would would be useful to know if a certain address was being used to make fraudulent orders. But it must be fraught with problems. I just don't see how it could work.

For instance an address could be blacklisted, then the new tenant is law abidding but will automatically be blacklisted. Should they be made to suffer?

 

[gibby]

I think to set one up & allow anyone to look at it has many issues.

I used to have access to one privately many years ago & it was very useful for the business I was in at the time. It was free & created by similar businesses as ours that worked together.

It was basically a list of hotels, pubs, nightclubs, agencies etc & listed which were good payers & which were a problem.
For firms that didn't pay on time or who had to be takent to court we demanded payment in advance if we would take the work on at all.

I think this could be a good thing to try but you will need to be very careful.

G

 

[scm5436]

that's a minor point - a few posts on this forum should drum up some support for a start. The biggest questions revolve around the legality of doing it, and how best to set it up...

 

[bwglaw]

Maybe I should have been more specific and say it's about problem CONSUMERS - I don't give a rats ass about businesses that purchase from me as I can word my terms and conditions in such a way as to make them pay for messing me about (ie. restocking fees, charges for failed deliveries etc)

The problem here is CONSUMERS. Some are just a nusciance by accident, some are just a pain by nature, some are just plain stupid and some are so clued up on the Distance Selling Regs that they exploit the rules for their own benefit.

The law is the law, it is not the consumers fault if they wish to exercise their rights.

Maybe you should become 'clued up' on Distance Selling Regulations (etc) so that you can challenge any claim for refund (etc) and not be exploited. Perhaps have your terms and conditions reviewed so that they 'just' meet the DSR etc.

 

[scm5436]

For instance an address could be blacklisted, then the new tenant is law abidding but will automatically be blacklisted. Should they be made to suffer?

That's why I would include the surname with the details, eg.

15/01/2009, AB1 1AB, No 1, Smith, Sent an abusive email to our staff

You could then match it to orders using the postcode, check the number to confirm the property, and then if the name is different and it the comment wasn't very recent then you could make a judgement call that the person has moved...

As I said before I see this as just a guide, an extra piece of information, to use when deciding to fulfil orders or not - not an automatic "if you're on the list you're not being served"...

 

[scm5436]

The law is the law, it is not the consumers fault if they wish to exercise their rights.

Yes, but we also have the right to choose not to serve specific customers. If a customer keeps coming into my shop and 'exercising their rights' at my expense then I have the right to tell them to bugger off and not come back. All I want to know is if can tell my mates about them so they can tell them to bugger of too (if they so choose).

Maybe you should become 'clued up' on Distance Selling Regulations (etc) so that you can challenge any claim for refund (etc) and not be exploited. Perhaps have your terms and conditions reviewed so that they 'just' meet the DSR etc.

I am clued up on the DSR, that's how I know there are so many problems with it. Yes, we can stop ourselves having to pay the return postage on a return - but we still have to refund the outgoing postage even if the item is returned. And if we send an item by courier, and the customer fails to accept delivery we can get lumped with a total of £18 of charges from the courier - none of which we can reclaim from the annoying customer who ordered the goods knowing they wouldn't be there to sign for it, and making no attempt to facilitate the receipt of the item causing it to be returned to us by the courier after 3 failed delivery attempts and a week in the depot when they could have collected it themselves... Yes, we can make it clear under what conditions they can make returns - but as you say the law is the law - so if they want to abuse us they can.

So if there was a way I could find out if a particular consumer was just a real pain in the neck with other retailers, then I'd be delighted to receive that information and base my decision on whether to deal with them based on that info.

 

[SillyJokes]

Exercising rights is one thing, and people should obviously be allowed to do this.

I think it would be handy to have a list of people/addressses where actual fraud has taken place, where there was a real intent to rip off the seller. These are the ones to be truly avoided and who probably deserve some sort of penalty.

People who cost you money by 'exercising their rights' for what ever reason are a fact of life and, happily, only a small proportion of customers. I think listing people like this would not necessarily be helpful and it may take more time to check the database and add to it than it is actually worth.

 

[scm5436]

Exercising rights is one thing, and people should obviously be allowed to do this.

Sure I have no problem with someone who returns the item because they don't like the colour or whatever.

I'm talking about people that are abusing their rights, or who's just plain stubbornous or bad attitude causes me problems.

You're right, it's just a small proportion of people very occassionally and I should probably just let it go - It's just I've just had a run of bloody minded, awkward and generally annoying customers in the last couple of weeks (to be fair we're only talking 4 out of hundreds of customers), but just the hassle and cost of dealing with them, one after the other, has just really p*****d me off.

i used to be a really happy person, but after being an e-tailer for a couple of years I seem to spend a lot of my time in an annoyed state. To be honest I can see why so many 'bricks and mortar' shopkeepers are always so grumpy, and why sales assistants are so unhelpful - if they have to spend all day dealing with annoying idiots like these then no wonder! It's probably a good thing that I never actually meet my customers, as some of them I'd probably end up slapping all the way out of the store...

And on the plus side I do keep my own blacklist, so if any of these muppets try to order from one of my other stores... well... it's (virtual) slapping time!

 

[SillyJokes]

We also have a list of problem people as fruadsters will keep coming back. Worldpay also allow you to prevent certain email addresses from re ordering, but of course, professional bad people just change their emails all the time.

 

[scm5436]

It's been a while since I started this post, but I'm reconsidering the idea.

Is there anyone in this legal forum that could provide a legal opinion, or point to some specific legislation that would potentially prevent this idea?

I'm not really interested in any more opinions on the rights or wrongs of the idea, or the practicallities of implementing/promoting it.

Just can I do it or not?

(and I don't see why not, consumers can post comments all over the internet about businesses they've dealt with, leaving star ratings and bad comments (even if untrue and biased) so why shouldn't we be able to do the same?)

ps. the list would not be publically available, and only accessible by members, and consumers would have the right to request details held on them and change them if incorrect (though I'd probably be generous and just delete the info unless it was something serious like fraud)

 

[SillyJokes]

Customers leave comments about public businesses who stand to make money.

Making comments about private individuals like this is totally different.

Whilst I'd love to know who might turn out to be a bad customer I'm just not sure that you would ever be able to do this in a way that would not leave you open to some horrendous abuse/suing etc. You'd only need to black list an innocent person once to feel the force of public opinion.

 

[scm5436]

You'd only need to black list an innocent person once to feel the force of public opinion.

Really? "Mr smith had his order for a pie refused at Mrs Miggins Online Pie Shop because of an incorrect rating" - hardly front page news - nobody cares. And if they did, so what? They're not our customers so it's not like they can boycott us or anything.

Think of all the people that have missed out on a mortgage or loan because one of the big credit agencies has got their information wrong or provided information for a previous resident of the address. Do you hear of any big public campaigns to do away with these credit agencies? I've never heard of any - because nobody cares. Most people would just say "as long as they don't stuff up my information I don't care".

All that happens is you request the information from the credit agency and tell them to correct any errors you find. There would only be any need for litigation if the information was incorrect and they refused to amend it.

I don't see how this is any different. We're an independent company, collecting 'worthiness' information from our business clients. How is that different from say Experian collecting 'credit worthiness' information from banks and other financial institutions? As long as the information provided is factual and accurate, and any errors that do occur are corrected promptly, I don't see the problem.

And I think you over-estimate exactly how much the customer would care - We have a number of estores and we sometimes reject orders because they look suspicious. I even rejected one today - apart from the order looking a bit dodgy, they took 4 attempts to get the credit info to be accepted, and even then there was no postcode check result, no house number check result, no 3d secure check and '3rd-man' said to reject it as it looked suspicious based on information they have about the card usage at the address and usage of that particular card - and I bet I never hear back from the customer. I've never had a single customer come back and say "I demand to know why you cancelled my order", or "I demand to know what system you're using for fraud prevention" - how would they ever know I used 3rd man? and if they did do you think they're going to try and sue them? Most people would never even know we existed behind the scenes.

And again, we're drifting away from the original question of if it's legally (not morally) possible.

 

[simon field]

Yes, can the O.P. do it or not?

Big companies sometimes get awful reviews of their products, I'd guess there's no comebacks on the reviewer.

Help him somebody!!